Question of Forgivenes

Received via email:

I have seen many times on the blog, and often wondered myself why the current, and past Sr. Pastors would not admit any fault or ask forgiveness for the wrongs they've done. It's so obvious to all of us that they had major flaws in their practices, but that they turned such a blind eye to it. They put the wrongs back on our shoulders as we went and talked with them about specific issues.

I have been gone from lff for many years now and have heard stories of various pastors asking forgiveness. I'm pretty sure that all of the pastors (except Bardens and Vances) have been very open about admitting wrong and asking forgiveness. I'm wondering if anyone has been contacted by the Bardens or the Vances or talked to them and had them admit wrong or ask forgiveness. I'm not talking about forgiveness like at the members meeting where everyone went to the microphone and put it all out on the table and they said "Please forgive us" a hundred times and mostly on behalf of the Sr. Pastors who weren't present at the meeting. That was helpful in the sense that it was one of the first times were all able to be truly honest at a members meeting, but I'm talking about a more real conversation where they say that they were wrong and that they are sorry for the hurt and damage they caused? Just curious. To me, that says a lot towards real change. So far I haven't heard of it happening other than outward changes to church meetings and home group structure types of changes.

I know that Beckers and Kobelins have asked forgiveness; the wife-halves of those couples have asked forgiveness of folks. Interesting, I hadn't thought of this before, but I think all of the women in the church had a whole lot more to forgive than the men. I have a lot of respect for the fact that they can admit where they screwed up and apologize. This could be a tough one to comment on without exposing who you are but I'd love to know if there is any recognition that they did wrong and they are making things right. It won't make me run back to lff but it will help me to know God is working on their hearts--maybe. I still pray for that. They've had their chance with me, and I would never put myself in the position to be hurt by them again. That would be foolish. But for the future since they are still ministering, I hope and pray that they will do better with those that walk through their doors.

Thanks for reading, and I hope to hear that something is happening in this area. If not, well, I guess I will continue to pray. God is big enough to do it, if He so chooses.

Take care,
pastlffer

The nail that sticks out gets hammered

Received via email.

When I was at LFF it seemed to me that anybody who had a differing idea on any subject was silenced. You were to "disagree agreeably" which meant shut your mouth and suffer the consequences of your actions. You were treated with suspicion of being a dissenter, your life was meticulously picked apart and minor things were turned into major "sin issues." If you "Rebelled" or refused to conform, you were ostracized, excluded, even excommunicated just as many others have stated on this blog. The divisive and manipulative leadership of the Living Faith Fellowship uses this fear to suppress and control the people.

Since my exit from LFF I wonder if there are any left who battle "Group Think".
Are those who go against the flow still treated the same way? In hindsight, I should have been more of a thorn in their side, doggedly questioning publicly their practices and ideas. Lowering my shoulder, persevering in the face of their devices. The sacrifices of a few meant to ease and prevent the suffering of many and better the health of the church.

Those who read and agree with me, please speak up. The ongoing refusal to publicly admit wrong and accept any form of criticism is one of the main weaknesses of LFF's current leadership. If you are currently attending the church and striving to make a difference, I admire your efforts, but don't let them get the best of you. You will find support here on this blog as well as from others within the church who do not accept the Group Think--if there are any left. I am sure the admin of this blog would post your account, igniting a dialog and penning a record.

Finally to the administrator(s) of this blog, You are a gentle man\lady and a scholar, I owe my thanks to you, this blog has helped me beyond description and I'm confident it has helped many others.

The Irony of Living Faith

Now days, when I think of my time spent at LFF I chuckle to my self and laugh as if it was a bad dream. I usually scold myself for being so foolish, and then I think about the many humorous and ironic things that I witnessed that could really only happen at LFF.

Did you ever think that they should be called response to opinion forms?

Have you ever been told that you lack self control by a fat person?

Did you ever take a math class from CMT?

Did you ever pretend to laugh real hard so that the people who were scowling at you would know you were touched by God?

Does it ever seem odd that the people with the most screwed up family taught mirror?

Living Faith is the only church I know that hasn't had a split: Instead of going to another church, all it's members just stopped going to church.

The most judgmental people I've ever met preach that we should extend them grace.

A pastor told me that if I wanted to continue serving in the areas that I loved I would need to come to morning prayer. Then she told me she stayed up all night and came to prayer at 6 AM. But at 7 when the meeting was over I was one hour late for work and she went to bed.

Karl Barden would use many citations in "Leadership Class" from his favorite book "How to Win Friends and Influence People." He figured out the influencing part, but where are his friends?

There are plenty more ironic things and I hope you can think of a few but I am a few minutes late for morning prayer.

Easter Sunday

Every year that I attended Living Faith, I dreaded one thing: door to door advertizing for the Easter play. Now it’s not that I’m a shy person, it’s just that I’ve never been fond of people knocking on my door unless they were invited. I don’t care if they are selling encyclopedias, campaigning for office, or just trying to get me into heaven. I appreciate the effort but really, don’t need encyclopedias, I have an internet connection, I will be voting your stance on the issues at hand, and I am not interested in scientology, the Jehovah’s whiteness, or any other solicitation of any kind. And I know that this feeling runs though out. The moment the do-not-call list came out; it was set out in church, and passed in home groups and other meetings.

So regardless of how others felt, we went out into the streets and knocked on people’s doors. Without hesitation we explained that we had the best show in town, like some crooked Broadway producers, and then finished up with an always strong “we’ll have donuts.” And like that the door was shut and we would move happily to the next house as invite after invite was thrown right into the trash.

For this act of self indulgence we spared no expense, printing thousands of half page color leaflets, and used them to proclaim to the city:

“We don’t care to know you during the year! Even though you’re my neighbor, I’ve been to busy to make you cookies because I’ve been serving at church. I really don’t care to know you, unless you come to my church, so if you would like to know me, this card says where I can be found.”

And year after year we engaged in this act of self promotion, wasting thousands of dollars and man hours trying to boost the attendance number for one day so we could feel better about our efforts that we put into our amateur production of a classic story. And after it was all over we would spend a week or two, congratulating ourselves on a job well done. Referring to the one uneducated person who had “never seen a betters show in there life” and who had obviously never seen another show before now. Telling ourselves that we were almost as good as broad way, whilst the audience sat in the dark for 2:49 as a props crew of 23 or so bumbled along in the dark.

I hear they no longer have to go door to door, but I went to the play today and it’s the same old. Not an improvement since I left. The leper gets healed, then Jesus dies, the leper is sad, then Jesus rises, then the choir sings everyone out on stage, you know, the usual.

After I went, I was just thinking how happy I was that I didn’t have to be involved and flunk my mid-terms so people would like me.

It’s a good feeling to be free.

Administrative Note

We have added a widget to the sidebar that will allow you to subscribe to the blog via email. We encourage you to also visit the blog and participate in the comments. There have been lively debates and insightful advice by many users, so please continue to contribute.

God Bless and Happy Easter!

Success of the blog

In addition to helping us all heal, the blog has been successful in other ways. While dealing with the establishment of Living Faith Fellowship and its puppeteers is important, spreading awareness is equally important and was one of the original goals of the blog.

Some evidence of success:

• When you search "Living Faith Fellowship" in google, the blog is the 4th result! Here is a little more information on how Google page ranking works
• When you search "Karl Barden" in google, the blog is the number one result!
• When you search "Kari Vance" in google, the blog is the 7th result.

Blog readership:

• At the time of this post, the blog has received 104,062 visits.
• As many as 800 unique viewers a day.

We have received dozens of emails from concerned friends, parents and families of current members asking for more information regarding this church. Many parents have voiced concern over their children's level of involvement, even to the point of some students not finishing college. Others have lost touch with loved ones because their lifestyle did not align with the church's moral views.

Whatever the case, we hope that this blog continues to serve its purpose and help people make an informed decision about participation & attendance at Living Faith Fellowship. At the very least it may encourage people who currently attend the church to second guess what they hear sometimes and ask questions about why things are the way they are.

Excerpts

The Question: "How many people are still Christians after LFF?"

Excerpts from the comments:

-I feel closer to God to have a real biblical knowledge of him, rather than man's messed up views.

-We SHOULD question, we SHOULD look for sincerity and for spiritual leaders who aren't all about prospering financially...etc. etc. etc. I'm finally happy in church again and my kids will grow up knowing the LOVE and GRACE of Jesus Christ. Lucky them...

-We're just now (almost 10 years after leaving) getting a vision of what GRACE really means and learning to trust again. Sad to think we lost almost 20 years of our lives - almost 10 years there + almost 10 years post-LFF - to their skewed teachings. Thank God for the Christians He's brought into our lives since then who have helped us.

-I do not believe in hell or sin anymore so I am not a Christian. I believe we humans make our own hell here on Earth. And so many things are done poorly in the name of God by we mere mortals. I am more about the Goddess and peace and love and karma and good deeds and yoga and NOT judgment and negative un-acceptance which is what I got from LFF.

-not sure...not sure at all

-I have become an Agnostic. I don't know if Christianity is true, it has no greater claim to truth in my mind than many other ideas. I am more drawn to the idea of no god(s) and nothing after death.

-So really if Jesus is as judgmental as I was when I was in LFF I don't want it.

-There is so much corruption in the Christian community, that I've identified myself as a believer in God, but not a prescriber to religion

-LFF was a very sad place for me. Even my family memories with my husband and children are not fond memories for me because it is all tainted with so much depression and anxiety.

-If Christianity is based on what is taught from most of the pulpits in Evangelical or Charismatic (very little difference really), then I would have to say, No, I am not a Christian.

-It wasn't Jesus who constantly was disappointed in us and judged us daily, it was the leadership of LFF. Jesus is full of grace and would never treat us as they did. So many of you are blaming other christians for your loss of Christianity. How sad that you give hypocrites in the kingdom of God more power over your lives than God.

-God doesn't expect us to be perfect or he wouldn't have given us the gift of salvation. It was only LFF that expected perfection. I just can see that they really deeply hurt you but you shouldn't have to give up your salvation because of them.

-LFF created such a distorted picture of who God is and what his character is...the Bible clearly says that it's "God's Kindness" that leads to repentance. God is not a judging God yet...some day he will be but not yet! He does not have some hidden measuring stick that he uses to see who measures up and who doesn't nor does he have a hidden agenda.

a change

Dear DPR,

We thank you for all the effort you have put into this site. You have posed insightful questions and moderated with grace. While we languished, in recovery, depression, and sometimes despair, you led on with dignity. Not all of us are healing and some never will. But some of us have conquered our demons, reached beyond the pain, and now seek to actively aid in the healing we once sought.

We are a few of the originators of this blog and want to bring new life to the healing. The anonymity of this blog has forced us to assume administration of this blog without consultation. Thank you to past administrators (DPR included) and future contributors for your continued support of this important effort. If you have any questions please email truthaboutlivingfaith@gmail.com

Readers,

If you have healed from the spiritual mutilation, move on. But if you still find yourself fighting, struggling, and hurting, this is the place for you. Grieving is never easy, but it is a start on the road to recovery. Please continue to send your stories. Together we will mend and warn others, telling them The Truth About Living Faith.

Thank You,

Innocence Destroyed