Monday, October 17, 2005

From our inbox...

This is another e-mail we recently received.

As a middle-leadership past lff type person, I need to say to whoever may be reading this that may have been “under” my ministry, I am so sorry for the abuse I inflicted on you and I ask that you please forgive me. I cannot say that I was somehow forced to do and say the things I did, because I made a choice. I think it is incredibly ironic and so much more painful to feel the hurt of the abuse inflicted on me through the years, but to know now that I am equally guilty of putting that pain on others and being “the hands extended” of the pastors who asked us to serve in those roles. I can’t receive forgiveness and healing even from God, let alone those I hurt, without taking responsibility for my choices. I can’t ask my kids forgiveness because they were too young to understand. Someday I may be able to tell them in order to keep them from falling prey to what we went through, but they were too young, and are still too young to understand or even remember all of the spankings and neglect. Fortunately my husband and I left early enough that they will not have memories of the experience, although I will always fight the self-hatred I carry for being so cruel. It is so hard to forgive yourself for cruelty to your own children once your eyes are open.

To those who may have been in my husband’s and my home group or care group, I am sorry for the control, for the manipulation, for the anger, that I showed. I believed that I was helping and that I was making you a better Christian and parent and employee and steward of your finances. I believed I was giving back help to others that I had received and was grateful for. I see now that it wasn’t help at all; it was cruel and wrong. I showed no respect for you as adults and individuals who should have been given the space to lead your family and make decisions for yourselves, to follow dreams, and take risks!! How fun that is now that we have freedom to do that! We were much too cautious within the walls of lff, there was too much fear. I wish I could take back so many conversations. I wish that I could go back and correct the wrong things I said. I wish I could take back all of the things I said to the GG students that I lead into deception. I am sorry for the red ink I put on papers of JCD’s and Catechism students where you tried to do your best or just survive in the system, and I told you it wasn’t good enough. I’m sorry for teaching you to tithe too much money to a church that was not using the funds properly. I’m sorry especially that I did it for selfish reasons, wanting acceptance, and promotion too. It is most difficult for me to face not just that I made the choice to be abused, but that I made the choice to abuse others. I have tried to talk to those I know I have hurt specifically, but to others who are hurting, please know that there are so many of us who were middle-leadership who would take back so many things that we’ve done, and would love to hug you, cry with you, and beg your forgiveness. We were wrong to hurt you. You are so loved by God, unconditionally. I think we mostly all know that in our heads, but I pray you know it in your heart as well, and feel it all over, that God loves you and wants you close and we will all get back to that place where we know him in a new way, not out of fear, but out of the amazing love that He has for us.

I read some very negative comments about Joe F and his brother and it made me sad. I want to say, please, please allow for grace anywhere outside of the Barden clan. He is EXACTLY where many of us were before our eyes were open, and I feel for him and for the extreme pain he may someday know for the part he has played in the Barden’s church. My husband was one of pkv’s “sons” and believe me it is a treacherous place for any man to be. If you aren’t a wife of one of her “sons” you may not understand what that means, but your husband is told constantly about his potential in the Kingdom of God, how spiritual he is, how important he is to her. How she looks for him at services. I could go on and on, but these words of encouragement from her are only to the sons, not the wives, not the kids, never as a family. Those of you who are one of the wives, know the look she gives your husband, the special smile and wink. None of those sons married wives worthy of them. Why pv allows his wife to take all of these boys into her spiritual harem and control their hearts and minds the way she does under the guise of spiritual leadership is beyond me. It is sick, and it destroys marriages. My husband went through so much pain after we left. We had to get to know each other all over again and figure out how to communicate without leadership in the middle. It was hard, but the best thing ever for our relationship. We are closer now than we ever have been.

But back to Joe F and his family, please apply grace. You may have been hurt badly by Joe, given wrong advice by Joe, but you very well may have by me too! And I’m begging you to please pray, rather than throw stones in his direction. He is so very talented, and he and his wife have a family and a future that will hopefully move beyond lff in the near future. I think we need to pray even more for his brother who married into the family and can’t ever escape pkv’s reach or her parents without serious turmoil. To say who is more or less talented is really not relevant. God uses us all in so many different ways and there really is no better and worse. We all have impact in our immediate families with our spouses and kids, and that is the most important place of all. After all of the grace that was not extended to us, let’s be those who extend grace the most. And, I suppose I should add, I’ve thrown stones too, so I apologize for correcting something I’m equally guilty of, so this advice is for myself too. Probably one of the steps in the healing process and a lesson better learned earlier rather than later. We love our lff friends dearly, and pray for those friends who are still there. Some of them are unaffected and quite happy, but I still pray that their families will always be their true first priority in their time and in every other way, and that God will always be known as the unconditionally loving God that He is.

22 comments:

Anonymous said...

I am struck by the humility of your post. I hate to say it but I was one of the boys who never made it into the 'harem' you speak of. I wanted to be in so badly, as all of the favorite sons seemed to be given so much. I know the winks and the smiles you talk about. I saw them go to my friends I was jealous of. A couple times I thought they were for me, but I would look over my shoulder and see someone else.

In retrospect I thank God that He kept me on the outside. It reminds me of the Garth Brooks song "Unanswered Prayers." I prayed so hard to be in the group, and when I was not I was devastated. Now I look at it as a moment of God's infinite wisdom I could never understand.

I don't say that in any way to make light of the pain that you felt as your husband was manipulated. You ARE good enough for him, despite what she thinks, whoever you are. Just the fact you had to deal with those emotions is tragic. That kind of emotional abuse should never be tolerated, and its a travesty that it still is.

Anonymous said...

I appreciate your comment about Joe. I think all of us here struggle with how we feel about people still there- it is hard to believe they don't know what they are doing- but while we were there many of us made choices, even if we weren't HCL's or in leadership to secretly judge, or think ooh that person is in trouble, they must be in sin- because that is what we were trained to do. Joe is no different, he isn't perfect, and I am sure he has treated people wrong, and hurt people deeply- yet, his sin is no worse than mine- when I would watch those "less spiritual" than me go through a hard time, and instead of reaching out I would pull away, afraid association with that person would make people think I was in sin too- I mean in some way most of us did something, even if it was inward and not outward that could hurt someone else. So I am careful not to judge Joe- God will do that, I would rather pray for him, and hope he sees the error of his way, maybe he will even be brought to repentance, and ask forgiveness, God is bigger than LFF- he can do whatever he wants. Joe is talented, imagine what he could do for the kingdom if he wasn't under the thumb of LFF- so my prayer is for him and his family; that he will find a way out, and make a real difference in the Kingdom of God.

Anonymous said...

How would what you have said about Joe not apply to the Barden family? Why does Joe merit a special look that others do not? But if Joe's sin is no worse than your sin, and you admit you and he have hurt people deeply, is it worse than Karl's sin? Try to see it from another point of view.

Remember, forgiveness is letting go of the bitterness, not letting go of wisdom. Things will never be as they were before, but we can forgive.

I can forgive, because I am forgiven. My sins are deserving of Hell. Through God's grace, I will not get what I deserve. I do not merit some special treatment.

Anonymous said...

I teared up as I read through this section. I think in the process of leaving and learning what Christianity and Grace is all about I ache because I still have moments of anger, denial, depression, etc. It's the grieving process.

I too was in middle leadership and a daughter in law of Kari Vance. I struggled with wanting the approval and thinking that when someone (even myself) was struggling that God was working on my or others characters. This treatment of me led to deep depression and at times suicidal thoughts. So many things done to me and that some that I did were wrong and without grace. I regret that. But I am so grateful that God didn't leave me there.

I too, feel like my husband and I are just getting into the groove of learning how to make decisions together and finding what works for us. It's been painful. I ache because I know the special attention given to a son in law and how the wives are treated and that makes me want to rescue those I know who are probably going through it still. It's a horrid place to be.

Thanks for sharing, friend. I know we could and maybe have shared countless times where we were left out of the loop in descisions, were yelled at for our husbands mistakes, were treated with complete pettiness and mean spiritedness. We are going to make it and God is healing us!

Anonymous said...

Hi-
I appreciate your comments, and agree no one person deserves more grace than someone else. I happen to have known Joe very well, and therefore saw him struggle etc, I did not have that same level of exposure to the others- I was in leadership, but senior leadership's shortcomings were not as publicized as other peoples shortcomings-occasionally they would share, but not always. So I don't know if at the root of everything they really thought they were doing good- I did know Joe, and I know that at his core, he thought he was doing the right thing- that is the only reason I asked specifically for grace on him. My comment was not intended to say Joe is the only one who deserves grace, just that I do believe I have been in his shoes (not exactly- I wasn't a Pastor or anything, but I was in leadership) and I understand where he is at, and believe he needs our prayers.

Anonymous said...

I think the last post brings up some valid points. Karl and Sherri, Phil and Kari as well as Joe all need our prayers. Our forgiveness is releasing us from any bonds that they hold over us. It doesn't mean you need to forget what happened, you just get to be released from its power over you. This is the point where our healing can begin in earnest. I have read some real heated words about all of them (and I don't want to say you are wrong to feel them. Your feelings are real, and can't be (nor should they be) ignored.)

Matt 5:44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you"

To the ex-HCL who wrote this; I know that there is guilt, but I forgive you. You may not have been my HCL, but you were following just as all the other HCL's were. You have asked God to forgive you, you have asked all of us here to forgive you. You have learned much from all of this. Thank you for asking. Walk in freedom, you are free.

Anonymous said...

To the person who rebuked me for applying grace to all but Vances and Bardens, I'm guilty. I don't deny it. I know it's wrong, yet here I am. From your post however, I gather you haven't walked a mile in my shoes. If you have, way to go, you're SUPER-Christian, I'm not. It's so easy to quote the Bible. I can do it too, I could even say the words you want me to say, so I look good. But I'm done saying words to make people happy. I'm real, this is where I'm at, and I'm getting stronger every day. One day I will be able to say those words and mean them. That day just isn't here yet.

Anonymous said...

I understand the struggle. I feel that I have forgiven and am completely over everything except for two people, Kari and Karl. I just...need time I guess. The hardest part is the pride that won't allow them to admit their mistakes. If they even just admitted that they purposefully manipulated me it would go a long way toward healing.
For now, here is where I will come, to let out the pain I still feel and share in the healing that we are all going through.

Anonymous said...

It is completely true that no one deserves any more or less of God's Grace. And I pray that someday, I can see through God's eyes in applying that grace. for the most part I have forgiven and let go. But there is a small part of me that cannot. I cannot move past the complete injustices and hypocrisies of Kari Vance. I realize, just in saying this, if she ever reads this she will dismiss my comment as bitter.

Yes, it is true I still needs to forgive her. But at least I am being honest here. And the fact I am being honest should only add to the truth as I state it. Kari has been responsible for a whole host of marital problems in many of her "sons" marriages. She took them from their wives, manipulated them and used them. All to fill the voids in her own marriage; which from my own observation is a complete disaster. I have never witnessed more fierce fighting and harsh words than when Kari unloads on her own husband; I pray for him and admire his ability to love her in spite of the way she treats him.

We were all taught at LFF to minister to those of our own sex and not those of the opposite sex. Ministry can be vulnerable and in this state bonds can be formed that in many cases should not exist between a man and a woman outside of marriage. Kari applied this rule to everyone but herself. Then she proceeded to surround herself with a host of young males, nurturing them and seeking to gain their appreciation, adoration, and love. Truly sick!!! It is wrong and it is hypocritical.

So, yes in general I have forgiven. And yes I am trying to still forgive, but to forgive someone who unleashed years of damage on my marriage and my family is difficult. I am human and I am taking this to Jesus and trying to forgive her. I am just not there and the difficulty of this is magnified by the fact that she places all the blame on me.

Anonymous said...

First, let me apologize if my post seemed to be a "rebuke" of any kind. I wasn't using the words of Jesus to manipulate, nor was I saying that you are wrong. I just know for my own life that when I hold onto unforgiveness that it hurts me. In my desire for everyone to be whole, I may have come off sounding like I think I know all of the answers. I do not! Hopefully, my heart will be heard through this post.

As I read Jesus' words, I don't hear a rebuke, I just hear him saying that if you want to live a blessed life this is the way. You can chose to follow it or not.

Unforgiveness does two things in my life.
1. It gives power to the one I don't forgive.
2. It makes me focus on the negative things and that makes it hard to move on in life.

I haven't walked in your shoes, just as you haven't walked in mine. We all see the universe through our own eyes. So, it is impossible for you to know what I have been through either. So, please, if you are upset and feel like I was calling anyone on the carpet, let it go. That was not my intent. If it stirred up things that upset you, then please talk to God (or however you deal with it) and see how this can help in your healing process.

Please take all posts with lots of salt and grace.

Peace!

Anonymous said...

Thank you writer of this post, and writer of all the comments...
The reason I love this site, and cannot seem to stop coming back is that we can all be totally honest... we can introduce new prospective and share honestly, even if what we have to say is not popular. We no longer have to worry about saying and doing the write things..
we can be right where we are, growing and changing a little every day with God's help, and we can be totally honest about being right where we are, and we don't have to pretend to be somewhere else.

To the writer...
Thank you for your apology...
I am grateful to you for you honesty.

And I thank you for your children, for getting out in time before it was too late

I pray for your (and all of our) continued healing for us and our families....

I pray for Joe - no matter what anyone says, I believe He does have a precious heart for God...
I pray God continues to reveal more to Him as well

I pray for Vances, Bardens, and everyone else left at LFF,that God works miraculously as only He can

Thank you

Anonymous said...

I think the hardest thing for me isn't so much forgiving...I forgive Karl and Sherri and the others. It's not even an issue of forgetting! I don't know if I can forget. My problem is this, I am an ex-PCSer, born and raised in lff. Because of that, my mind was trained to think a certain way and I don't know how to change that. I don't know how to wonder whether or not I am good enough. I don't know how to think because I have always thought a certain way. That's the hardest thing for me. I feel a little brainwashed. Of course, I forgive. My forgiveness isn't even contingent upon whether or not someone asks for it. I just don't know how to go into situations at church or otherwise without karl, kari's, sherri's...anyone's....voice in my head telling me how I should act, talk, walk, sit, smile, think, act, love etc....I was one of the "daughters" but not because she wanted, but because they thought I had some element of potential. I went to their house, but pretty much knew I wasn't wanted there. I saw how she treated people. I got yelled at and told I wasn't good enough too. So I understand. Of course, I was a kid and not a wife, but I understand some measure of what went on. To the person who wrote this blog, of course you are forgiven by me and God and whoever else. I appreciate your asking. But I still don't know how to change my head. I'm still bad at making decisions. I still don't know what is good authority and bad authority if there is such a thing! I still have trouble with "is this the Bible or lff? i can't remember!" I don't know. Maybe this isn't so much an issue of un-forgieveness and bitterness as it is, we were taught one thing for so long that we don't know how else to think other than to know our thought-patterns are not right or normal. I guess that realization says something.

Anonymous said...

I can totally relate to the last post. Being raised at lff gave them an opportunity to raise us in their own image. We were told what to think and why to think it. It seemed Biblical at the time because after all Karl knew everything and if he said it, it must be true. My issues today don’t stem around forgiving or not. I don’t like what they did to me, to us, but that part of my life is over now. I have to create a new life, a new normal, a new and real picture of God for myself. I am scared of getting trapped up in things that hurt me before because I simply don’t know any better. Habits are hard to break. We were literally hardwired to the culture of lff and I have discovered the de-wiring takes time and effort. I have to make a conscious effort to ask myself why I am volunteering for this or that, or even asking myself why I am raising my hands to a worship song. As silly as it sounds, this is my greatest battle right now. What is normal, what is right? Who is God and what does He mean to me? So continue the questions of my heart. I still have a lot of research and soul searching to do but at least I know I will be drawing my own conclusions, not someone else’s.

Anonymous said...

all the comments by the kids of lff on this site are making me finally realize just how badly they were treated. how tragic. im sorry for all those who were subjected to it. if i could go back in time I would try to change things but i dont know if it would make any difference.

Anonymous said...

to the above: it truely is the hardest to try and define what's wrong and what should change in your thinking when it's all you've ever known. I've found, though not in the context of LFF, that in the past year I've had to ask God to even teach me who I am, because I spent a lot of years just saying what I thought was the right answer for me. I've asked God to create me again and teach me who that person is.
I've heard several testimonies from past drug users who fried their minds so badly before they found Jesus that they could hardly remember who their families were and how to speak correctly. What they did though seems almost too simple to believe. They just read their Bibles. Not even trying to find the answers to their problems, just reading it to read. Reading the Word of God because of what it is by nature. Having faith that the "renewing of your mind by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit" really can happen.
I can't say this is a quick fix, but I know that the Gosple is the power of God for salvation and I just truly believe that reading the word is a real concrete solution to a lot of problems.
The only person you can do it for is yourself. Simply taking that promise of a renewed mind and then emersing yourself in the words of God. After a while all the other voices will fade and whether it's the old truth that you were taught or the new truth that was hidden by deception the Word of God will reshape your thinking like no other thing ever can.
It'll be a course in God-culture, not church culture. Whenever you find yourself thinking a lie, or what you think might be a lie write it down. Lies about yourself, about God, about right and wrong. Write it down and then replace the lie with scripture believing that it's God's own word. I have personally experienced such freedom from battling Satan's lies one at a time like that. The enemy is the one who wants to keep you deceived about how things really are, and Jesus already achieved victory over him.
I pray that these insights into ways of getting healing that I have learned and/or also experienced give you some hope and direction you may be searching for. Don't let the Enemy benefit anymore from the distorted word of God. Our Jesus can restore to you a hundred-fold what Satan has stolen killed and destroyed in your past.

Anonymous said...

I'm reading Twisted Scriptures and the thing that keeps occurring to me is that Pastors are supposed to give tender love and care to their flocks. But what I remember especially about the teaching on shepherding is that they amplified the part about the shepherd breaking the lambs leg to keep it from running away.

This is the exception, and NOT the norm! But, the way that we were treated breaking our legs for having a different opinion was the norm. We were ridiculled and called names "hard hearted" "unteachable" "rebel"

Real pastoring does no harm to the sheep, instead it really builds them up and helps them to grow. It provides food, and shelter.

As I think about this, I remember how I was taught to take care of my children. I was taught that they were born with a sinful nature and I needed to break their spirits. Basically, like me, they were born rebels and needed to have their legs broken. Even to this day I see the repercussions of this kind of child rearing. My children all suffer from low self esteem, they feel paralyzed in social settings when they don't feel like they are accepted, they struggle with depression.

The church I go to now (New Thought (you would say New Age)). Says that it is a spiritual priniciple that what you focus on you attract. The biblical equivalent is "That which I feared has come upon me". So, I was afraid that my children were evil, and what do you know, they acted "evil". The way I have come to see children may not be "biblical" but I see them as perfect whole and complete. Guess what, their shame is diminished and their self worth sky rockets.

I am reminded also of when Jesus rebuked the disciples for trying to turn the children away from him. As I see on the blog, we are guilty of turning the children (PCS) away from him. God have mercy on us! (and on our children!)
Amen!

Daniel said...

Thanks for your humility. I have no idea who you are, but thank-you.

Your post shows that God really can work changes and I know that He's continuing to work on those that continue the abuse at LFF.

I just wish He'd do things on my timetable :-) But then, that's why He's God, and I'm not.

Anonymous said...

The one two above was from me, John Brower. FYI.

Anonymous said...

I guess it is now 4 up (10:46am)JB

Anonymous said...

Forgiveness in a tough issue. I know all the scriptures on this but i am curious as to what to do with how Jesus treated the Pharasies. He minced no words with them and gave no quarter. He openly rebuked and condemned their bad attitudes and hypocracies. Paul echos these by condemning the sect of the circumcision and other religious perverts who wanted to subvert the gospel and take away our freedom in Christ.

The willingness to forgive is admirable but where is the willingness of Karl Barden to repent? I guess i pity Karl and company - when they stand before God how can it be a happy time? All the lives that they tried to crush will testify against them. All the ministries that they dashed into pieces under their feet... I believe a "cry has gone up unto heaven" I am left to wonder what God could have done at LFF if they actually promoted ministries rather than pummel and punish them.

Ultimately we do not judge Karl Barden anyway, that is for God to do. My concren is for the man's soul because all i see is hardness of heart and stubbornous. I think we should not fail to pray for those still trapped there. I honestly don't pray for Karl much - when i think of him i inwardly shake my head in saddness.

I suppose my pain & anger has been replaced by sadness, which is probably a good thing in some respects. My concern is more for all of you who are pouring out your hearts here on this blog. I want to see you find your way to freedom from the quiet torment that i finally more or less got away from about 4 years ago. It took me over 20 years but i had nobody to talk to who understood what i had gone through.

The confusion about what to believe still continues as God helps me realize that there is yet another doctrine or teaching or catchy phrase that is not really Biblical. Did you know the term "unconditional love" is not in the bible? Don't worry - God's love is unfailing. Read the Word for content and context and throw your Strong's concordence on the back shelf. (it always amazed me what silly gray sweater doctrine they could come up with by finding a "new meaning" from Strongs - truly mis-applied and misguided).

Keep on talking, keep on sharing. There is life after LFF and it gets better. Sometimes slowly. It is not a bed of roses (it never was) and be carefull not to let others take advantage of you. I'm not saying you should become cynical or bitter but careful and wise. Let others earn your trust. You will have your victories and defeats, ups and downs.

As i write this i keep thinking "what can i say that would actually help?" I'm limited because of distance, time and not knowing any of you personally except for Jerry G and John B. Many of you i would have known as the children of my friends. You are still young enough to have a life. Don't let anger be your motivation. Your parents were snookered into what they believed and did. Nobody is ever willingly decieved. They were sincere and sincerely decieved. Cut them some slack. If they are still there they may need your help when they escape LFF. Don't expect to have all the answers, it takes time, it takes grace. Let love cover the multitude of sins.

I guess i'll sign off from my rambling, not knowing exactly what to say. Belive me this blog has stirred up lots of old emotions.

May God make all your Christmases bright.

George N. Sally

Anonymous said...

Every time someone mentions God/Jesus/church I cringe on the inside. I fill up with anger and dread talking about those subjects. I'm torn because I know God/Jesus/church are known for their love, but I feel as though I am constantly living in sin. When meeting with someone from LFF, I hope they never ask me or talk to me about God/Jesus/church or other related topics. This is what brought me to this site, the gnawing at my brain saying this is not right. Running and hiding from God, his son, and his people. I don't want to be afraid anymore.

Thank you so much for you post and being honest. I want you to know forgive you. The turmoil your struggling with, I understand. I ask that you please forgive yourself. I hope this can be a stepping stone for both of us for healing our hearts and souls.

Heather said...

I don't know who posted this original apology, but all I can say is thank you. I don't even know if I know you, but just to hear one person say it is amazing. I've never asked or needed an apology, but I do think it is astounding that the leadership and previous leadership can live without doing that. Wow, I have so much I want to say. I know from experience the hardest thing after accepting God's forgiveness is forgiving yourself. I pray you are completely healed in every way. <3 Biggest hugs, and lots of love in OUR Lord :) Anyone can contact me Heather Berg location Tucson, Arizona on fb or musikalshark@hotmail.com