Wednesday, April 18, 2007

Question of Forgivenes

Received via email:

I have seen many times on the blog, and often wondered myself why the current, and past Sr. Pastors would not admit any fault or ask forgiveness for the wrongs they've done. It's so obvious to all of us that they had major flaws in their practices, but that they turned such a blind eye to it. They put the wrongs back on our shoulders as we went and talked with them about specific issues.

I have been gone from lff for many years now and have heard stories of various pastors asking forgiveness. I'm pretty sure that all of the pastors (except Bardens and Vances) have been very open about admitting wrong and asking forgiveness. I'm wondering if anyone has been contacted by the Bardens or the Vances or talked to them and had them admit wrong or ask forgiveness. I'm not talking about forgiveness like at the members meeting where everyone went to the microphone and put it all out on the table and they said "Please forgive us" a hundred times and mostly on behalf of the Sr. Pastors who weren't present at the meeting. That was helpful in the sense that it was one of the first times were all able to be truly honest at a members meeting, but I'm talking about a more real conversation where they say that they were wrong and that they are sorry for the hurt and damage they caused? Just curious. To me, that says a lot towards real change. So far I haven't heard of it happening other than outward changes to church meetings and home group structure types of changes.

I know that Beckers and Kobelins have asked forgiveness; the wife-halves of those couples have asked forgiveness of folks. Interesting, I hadn't thought of this before, but I think all of the women in the church had a whole lot more to forgive than the men. I have a lot of respect for the fact that they can admit where they screwed up and apologize. This could be a tough one to comment on without exposing who you are but I'd love to know if there is any recognition that they did wrong and they are making things right. It won't make me run back to lff but it will help me to know God is working on their hearts--maybe. I still pray for that. They've had their chance with me, and I would never put myself in the position to be hurt by them again. That would be foolish. But for the future since they are still ministering, I hope and pray that they will do better with those that walk through their doors.

Thanks for reading, and I hope to hear that something is happening in this area. If not, well, I guess I will continue to pray. God is big enough to do it, if He so chooses.

Take care,
pastlffer

46 comments:

Anonymous said...

Not one pastor has ever asked my forgiveness ESPECIALLY not Julianne Kobelin. It doesn't matter though, because my "moving on" cannot be based on if they ask my forgiveness or not. If I require them to repent and ask my forgiveness for me to get on with my life then I am still letting them control me. It has taken me a couple of years to get past this and forgive them but I have and I am free from it. I visit this sight now only to offer hope and encouragement to those still suffering. I hope those of you still in pain can find some freedom from them through unsolicited forgiveness.

Jerry said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Revenge and forgiveness don't really go hand in hand. Every time I think of that place or those people, especially the women pastors you mention--specifically Kari--I am tormented by the fact that forgiveness requires me to accept the pain that she caused and in my heart let her go scot-free. I think if she were willing to admit even the slightest bit of fault, for the first time in her life, it would go a long way for a lot of us.

Anonymous said...

I have worked hard to get beyond LFF and the lies I was feed there. I thought it was mostly out of my system and I have found great support (albiet anonymous!).
Then today I was cleaning the garage and going through some storage bins and Gads!, I found my going for gold binder and baptism certificate. Acckk. I thought I had gotten rid of that junk a long time ago. And a member directory thing!
It certainly brings up a lot of memories and strange feelings. Luckily, my city is holding a free shred your papers thing tomorrow. Guess what goldenrod papers are for the shredder!!! I'd burn them in effigy if I had a fireplace...

Anonymous said...

I personally don't have any desire to have any kind of contact with the Bardens, Vances, etc. I have forgiven them, I hope I have learned from my mistakes, and I have a good life now. I figure that they need to live with themselves and the people that they've become. If they come to repentance over their manipulations and cruelty, I'll be happy for them. It may seem like they would be getting off "scot-free", but isn't that what happened with us when we became Christians (actually, what still continually happens as we repent)?

Anonymous said...

"The meek inherit the earth; the rest inherit LFF."

Anonymous said...

I've always felt that there is (still) a great opportunity for LFF in regard to this website. What if Phil Vance spent even 1 hour per week answering questions and concerns that are brought up on this site? This is a biblical opportunity to reconcile with people who have been genuinely hurt. (In LFF language this is known as a "ministry opportunity.")

This is what Jesus would do. He left the comfortable in order to seek out the hurting so that He could attend to those needs. He did not "write them off" because they were not worthy of his time or because "I am doing a great thing and I cannot come down [to your level]".

He not only took time He actually sought out and favored those who were hurting the most with His time and attention.

Is Jesus no where to be found amongst the LFF staff? Are things so busy there that there is no time for the mission of Christ?

Anonymous said...

True -he could just start his own blog for the purpose of answering questions on this blog and just tell writers on this site to see his site for his answer. Too easy.

Anonymous said...

He has already stated during church services that he doesn't have time to take to listen to the crap and garbage that goes on here. He believes there is no need to come down to our level.

Anonymous said...

You have got to be kidding me! That is the bullshit elitist Christianity that he preaches??? Is that what Jesus would do? Answer me that Phil!

Anonymous said...

in the name of Jesus: Joe, Phil, and Kari....let others be free!!! Pastor Joe let God's people go! Pastor Phil let God's people go. Kari let God's people go!

Anonymous said...

That can't be true. The congregation of LFF wouldn't really let him get away with that statement, would they?

Unknown said...

of course they would. They believe that we are in rebellion. We aren't committed christians and we're the ones in sin not them.

Anonymous said...

let the bonds be broken. amen amen

Anonymous said...

"That can't be true. The congregation of LFF wouldn't really let him get away with that statement, would they? "

I'm guessing most people on here would agree that they(including me) have already let the leadership get away with much worse transgressions.

Anonymous said...

Phil believes that there is no need to come down to our level? Exactly where does honesty rate on his scale? I can't speak for everyone who frequents this blog, but many of us are trying to take an honest look at our lives and the many choices that we've made over the years. We don't want to continue to make the same painful choices over and over.

Anonymous said...

Off topic but I just have to say that I think it's really shitty that the admin isn't posting more emails. I know that they are getting some because I and others I know have emailed and not one has ever been posted.

Admin are you trying to control every little thing like LFF does?

Seriously!

Anonymous said...

maybe your emails were shitty.

Administrators?

Anonymous said...

I would like to see more new content too. It seems like either DPR put things up quicker, or things are really slow. I don't think that the administrators are censoring as much as just not on top of it. They wouldn't cut out someone who honestly shares their heart. I suggest patience on your part. I am sure they'll post something soon.

Anonymous said...

maybe the administrators have lives also and have more to do than to think about this blog

Anonymous said...

ooooo good one, we don't have lives ha ha so funny.

Grow up. This blog is ridiculous.

Anonymous said...

What about the possibility of some real threats coming against the administrators from the leadership of LFF? It has happened before, on a lesser scale, but what if this time they really threatened something serious?

What would you guys do if they threatened to make public all of the church files? Expose all the private things of all us past members to the world?

I for one would be utterly humiliated. I can't even sleep at night sometimes knowing that some of the most intimate details of my life were passed around in their gossip system and are now part of the permanent records of that place. They could ruin me if they wanted.

Anonymous said...

Does the LFF leadership know who the administrators are, or are they just guessing?

Anonymous said...

I highly doubt that LFF would make public anything on past members. Not because I doubt that they would if it served their purposes and they thought they could get away with it,but for the simple fact that it would open them up to multiple lawsuites. That would be overwhelmingly stupid, even for that place. Personally, I would love to see that happen, as I have never done anthing that was not in the scope of normal human behavior, and I could use the cash such a lawsuite would bring.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, if someone wants to start a class action lawsuit against that place I am totally in!

Anonymous said...

We wrote a letter requesting our files when we left. Phil wrote back saying that when we entered GG's we signed a waiver form stating that they would keep records and that we would not have access to those. I don't remember signing anything like that and my lawyer aunt says waivers like that wouldn't hold up in court

Anonymous said...

I just want to say that Julieanne Kobelin did ask me to forgive her and I actually went and visited her in Hawaii and it was quite healing. Not that I would want to pursue relationship with her, but I thank God that restoration took place. She wanted me to tell her everything she'd done to hurt me so she could specifically ask forgiveness for those things. I had forgiven years before this encounter, but it still meant a lot to me since she hurt me more than anyone I have ever known. Kari Vance also asked me to forgive her. It wasn't as deep as Julieanne's request, but I knew it was VERY difficult for her, but again, I had forgiven her years prior to this encounter and honestly I just really love Kari Vance...she was like a light of hope in the darkness Julieanne created around me. God isn't going to let any of us go "scot-free" in the end...we are each acountable for the lives we lead. I used to struggle with that same sentiment (forgiving meant letting them "get away with it"), but then the Lord led me to the words, ..."you follow Me". This set me free. Thank God that the Lord in His amazing kindness led us away from this manipulative control center and put our feet on solid and stable ground where He is free to work in our lives His way! Once I could see the grace provided me in this it made it way easier for me to not demand "they make things right" and just so grateful to be out of that kind of bondage. Once I came to terms with that the nightmares ceased, the torment disappeared, the depression lifted, true peace in Jesus rushed in, and joy filled and saturated me! It is good to be free! It was for freedom that Christ set us free! Galatians ministered to me a lot during those days of deep pain.

Anonymous said...

Two comments earlier:

Do you by chance still have a copy of that letter from Phil? If you do, the text of that letter would make an excellent contribution to this blog.

Thanks...

Anonymous said...

I'll see if I can find it. We've moved several times since and have purchased new computers so who knows.

Anonymous said...

Really now...to say that you love Kari Vance is pushing it. She is the MOST manipulative, back stabbing so called Christian out there. Fake, Fake, Fake! I still can't belive how we were treated as former hcl's, and the fact we needed to focus more on our family was discouraged will never sit right with me. Anyone else I would be willing to sit down and try to work things out - but she draws the line.

Anonymous said...

Was Julianne sick and dying of Typhoid fever when she asked your forgiveness or were you perhaps dangling a hot dog in front of her nose? I'm sorry, I just can't see her asking ANY ONE'S forgiveness for the inhumane ways she treated her "sheep"...

Anonymous said...

dangling a hot dog. ha! more likely a pack of hot dogs.

Anonymous said...

All I can tesify is my experience. To those who might remember me my name is Nikkoly (Petrak) Stanley (89-93). I heard your wounded hearts in your comments and I will pray for you to continue forward towards healing and restoration. No one can "make" you forgive or work things out with anyone. I just thank the Lord for His complete work in my heart in binding up my wounds and setting me free. Yes, I truly love Kari and Juli and all of them...every single one. I can be with them and feel no malice...I can love freely! I am FREEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I pray for all of you here that were wounded, are wounded, are healing that you will also find such liberty! No dangling of hot dogs (very mean comments that really aren't necessary...do we really need to be harsh with one another?)

The comment I responded to was...did anyone ever hear about Juli and Kari asking forgiveness and my answer was YES, and so you are now faced with that reality and I pray that the Lord woud heal you. Yes, it was VERY wrong that you were asked to sacrifice your family for the sake of MOLECH (ministry). I pray that you find comfort in the peace of Jesus and that He will give back the years that were stolen from you!

I was just baptized again this past Sunday as a consecration to the Lord, to free me form religious bondage, spiritual abuse, and half truths that kept me in despair for WAY too long. I came out of those waters with even more love and freedom. I highly recommend it for any who were baptized at LFF.

It is in our power to forgive or retain someone's sins, and I have chosen to forgive and love and I am free from hate and malice and live at peace with ALL people as far as I am able. I truly have NO ill feelings left for either Kari or Juli, thanks be to the grace of our AMAZING God!

I spent my WHOLE time at LFF trusting Jesus completely and often 'in trouble', or being rebuked/corrected for something that may at times have been warranted....but, the thing is my eyes were always on Him and still are. He did use every bit of it for His glory--turned it all for good. I can now help others and am presently doing so and thank God that I can help her out of my place of healing, not woundedness. I truly can not see any other way to be free from the pain that took place at LFF without forgiving.

When I left LFF (due to marrying a divorced man and my own shame) I lost everything I knew, people I truly cared for, and a "way" of life, but God gave me back my life! At the time I left it was as if I died, but then God led me down His road and I have been on the most glorious journey ever since. I pray that you would each experience the freedom Christ died to set you free into!!!! It's available. There is victory to be had in all of this.

He is the perfector of our faith and I choose to believe Him and His word and that they work and have seen this happen. Perhaps that is why some of you have not experienced this...you are looking to them to solve this for you or to see them judged and only Jesus can heal your broken hearts and gaping wounds. He will judge us ALL according to the works we have done in the flesh.

My heart for all wounded is only GOOD and as one who prays and has been fervently praying for LFF since I left in 1993 and have seen MANY of those prayers answered (those who have left this bondage to men is a HUGE answer to prayer)....I will pray for any who care for me to pray for them! My email is: stanfam7@wavecable.com if you would like to get in touch with me.

Only peace to you broken hearted saints!

Nikkoly

Anonymous said...

Nikkoly,
I appreciate the heart of your post, however, you come off very prideful in your GREAT ability to love all these people. The thing that some of you folks don't realize is that some of us ARE able to forgive and move on,only, we are realists. I knew Julianne quite well and AFTER her return from Russia (I believe you were long gone by then). She came back different from when she left (or so I'm told). She was maniacal in her manipulation, control and yes, emotional torture. I believe you knew a different person and while I don't doubt that she was horrible to you in your situation, you were there at a different time. She may have asked your forgivenss but she never asked mine and while I have forgiven her in spite of that, I have learned to cope with the grief by having a sense of humor about it all. If we can't laugh at the past, we will forever cry. Please don't preach at me that God will take away my pain, he never promised to do that. Life is full of pain, we lean on God and learn from the past. In spite of my painful past I am happily continuing on in my relationship with God.

I'm so sorry if my comment about the hot dog offended you - I just happen to know how much she loves hot dogs and demands her underlings cook them for her (yes, even in Hawaii) so it seemed fitting. If she ever calls me and personally asks my forgiveness for all the wretched things she did to me, I'll recant this entire comment but for now it stands. You can accuse me of whatever you want, I don't live my life based on other people's judgements of me anymore.

P.S. I feel sorry for you that you are going to stand in judgement before God for your fleshly works. I guess I have a different kind of salvation called GRACE...

Anonymous said...

Hey. Nikkoly knew Julianne and was a chosen one. She was going to go to Russia and she didn't so imagine what could have happened. I don't know when you started going but if I said her friends names you wuld know. I think regarding Julianne she might not care about all of the people that she hurt but she must have hurt Nikkoly pretty bad if she was going to Russia and then she didn't. Just imagine. The fat jokes do get old.

Anonymous said...

Nikkoly, great post. Thanks for sharing so much and so honestly. For whatever it's worth, I didn't think your post was arrogant at all. You sound like you have are free and I'm very happy for you. I'm sorry for the shame you felt when you left. I remember being heart broken like you had chosen sin rather than staying in the perfect will of God like the rest of us. What a crazy way of thinking we had back in those days. I remember the church services with ALL of leadership hovering around you trying to "fix" you. I was jealous because I knew only a select few are treated so seriously when the thoughts of leaving were surfacing. The same thing happened with Kim M. You were special to them, and even more vulnerable to hurt because of that. I'm so glad you are happy now and free from whatever bondage the past held.

God looks at the heart, and I think the comments about body shapes and appetites should be left off the blog. They really do show a lack of character and are just plain mean. Just imagine how we would be talking if all of the leadership looked like Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Models. What would we be saying then about their elitist snobby attitudes? Would it be their pride in their beautiful bodies that would drive their arrogance and control. We should stick to the heart of the matter, rather than throwing mud like we're on an elementary school playground. So now I'm probably sounding arrogant too, right?

Nikkoly, good for you putting your name on your blog entry. I'm not that brave. But I felt I should tell you I thought your blog entry was very honest, and should give others hope, not make them feel preached at.

Anonymous said...

Kari did ask my forgiveness. She seemed sincere. It's been so many years that it's hard to know if change has really happened. I'm sure there are many regrets on the part of the leadership. Whether it is regret of the pain they caused, or regret that they screwed up and lost control, I'm really not sure. I will never know the hearts of the leadership there like God does and I'm grateful that it is His job and not mine to sort through the mess at lff. They are in God's hands. I will forgive and I'm free from all that happened there. Well, growing more so each day, I should say. I wish I were as free as Nikkoly sounds like she is, but she left many years before I did so maybe I will get to that point. I know that people in leadership are asking forgiveness.

I'm sure it's much different than our days at lff, and there is no "assignment" and structure to those who are asking forgiveness. It could be a simple matter of opportunity presenting itself as people bump into each other and have a chance to say the words. I know the phone and e-mail are there, if they wanted to, but shoot, it might take years to make all those phone calls!! Maybe more calls are coming. But in the mean time, I know I've been asked forgiveness by at least Kari, and others, HCL's and CCL's. Whether it is a band aide or a true healing is only known by God. My job is simple. I have no baggage to carry.

Anonymous said...

Funny how the hot dog comment got everyone's feathers so ruffled. I was just trying to think of something that would motivate Juli to ask forgiveness since it's obvious not brokeness and repentance that drives her. Please forgive me for being so insensitive.

For all you Nikkoly defenders, I wasn't attacking Nikkoly but honestly when people gush their great ability to forgive and love, it comes off as very prideful. I just didn't read humility there. I'm sure she is a super fantastic person but I never had the pleasure of knowing her and thus my opinion was based on written word. By the way, calling someone a "chosen one" is wierd. We were all chosen to some degree or we wouldn't have been hurt. We need to quit putting people on pedestals.

Signed,
One of you

Anonymous said...

Phil & Kari asked our (dh & I) forgiveness. It was a general asking since we didn't have any anger or hurt at the time (only a few years after we left LFF on good terms). We have since gone through some major upheaval in our spiritual lives and have come to the realization that a lot of what we learned/believed was terribly skewed... even so, we feel like their seeking our forgiveness was genuine and they sincerely seemed to leave the door open for us to talk about any issues in the future. We have chosen not to seek any specific forgiveness since we want to leave that chapter of our lives behind us.

Hey, Nikkoly. It was good to see your post and hear you're doing well. You & I started going to LFF at the same time so I remember a lot of what you went through and your passion for Christ. Blessings to you. :)

Anonymous said...

I don't think its incorrect to say "chosen one". That's how LFF works, you come in as a baby Christian (no matter how long you've known the lord), you go to GG's (now Carpenter's Series) then you get your first mentor type person. Then you graduate to a home group after you've been baptized (even if you've been before). You serve on Saturdays, you're there Sundays for class and then church, then home group, then Tuesdays for bible study, Wednesdays back at church, Thursday your one supposed day off and then Fridays for CCF. After you've proved yourself, you may then get approached to join JCD's (the next step up the ladder) then a bible study leader, shortly after you get married in the church and become HCL's (now small group leaders), another step in the ladder.

Some day you might actually be deemed worthy to apply for membership or even god forbid get a chance to sing with the band. You keep moving up, keep "pressing in" and become more and more popular, to a point where P.Phil himself tells a great story about you in a service! My God you've made it!

LFF is all about climbing the leadership ladder.

We need to start telling it like it is rather then trying to downplay the reality that is Living Faith Fellowship! This blog is about getting out the truth and the truth is that there is absolutely no accountability to leadership and the only way to be deemed worthy of anything in that church is to claw your way to the top.

Anonymous said...

Some people need to lighten up and enjoy the humor with which some contributors have the ability to communicate with.....if we can't laugh at some of our ludicris experiences at "Living Fake" then it's a sad day. And what is wrong with acting like junior high kids? Sounds as if someone is being a wee bit judgemental? I'm still cracking up at "the dangling weiner scenario".

Anonymous said...

Sorry about saying the chosen one. Realized afterwards that I probably should have used quotation marks over "chosen one" I would have thought the same thing. That used to piss me off how certain people were chosen to help Vances or Kobelins. Or that there were people who were more spiritual and destined for a higher calling. WE WERE ALL CHOSEN BY GOD AND HE DESTINED ALL OF US FOR GREAT THINGS....Isn't that in the BIBLE????? Maybe um Jeremiah 29:11. I don't remember it saying because you can dance or sing or cook or are pretty or were bubbly or run sound equipment or love to worship or whatever!! Man, all that did was make the person feel superior I lived with some of the spiritual ones and honestly at times they were bitches at home-one especially. They were conceited and thought they were better, because they were told they were. They had a supposed better line to god. I worked my ass off in crew, bible study, outreach, serving HCL's but wasn't good enough. Julianne would ask the chosen ones what kind of roommates we were and if she didn't like something we were doing she would tell julianne and we would get 'in trouble' and we didn't get to defend ourselves. The spiritual one said it. Sometimes I think I am just as upset at the people who were around me as 'leadership'. But I know I treated people the same way at times. I had gifts that were talked about a lot and I thought I was closer to Jesus because of it. was so judgmental. I am sure I judged some of you reading this but I am sure some of you judged me. we were in a horrible place!!!!!!rlghtmux

Anonymous said...

You are right; we were both victims and perpetrators. That was the Barden strategy for keeping people in subjection. If we felt anger or hurt for being victimized, we could always be remiinded that we had victimized others. At LFF, there was no escape from guilt, no grace.

Anonymous said...

Nikkoly - I am glad to read that you are doing well now. I have often wondered how some of the people I knew back then have fared in life. I remember the story about how you had sinned when you left. Yes, you were one of the "chosen ones" (I was not). Julie asked my forgiveness, too. It was after she came back from Russia (can't remember if she went several times; don't know if she went after I left). I remember being so shocked when she did ask. I recall it being said with vague words, but over and over, and she did cry. I know LFF people can manipulate and lie, but her request did not fit that sort of picture.

Anonymous said...

Wow. I am considering joining LFF, as I am a new student to WSU. I was doing my research on the place when I found this blog. Honestly, I don't know what to think. I'm surprised by the language in many of the comments and the condemning voice of so many people demanding LFF ask forgiveness. So many of the comments commented on LFF's not behaving like a christian organization should. While being vague on what they were refering to, it was real claer the writer needed to read Proverbs 12:18 again. Whatever happened to Galations 1:6, "Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted." After all, "Who can say, 'I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin." I know I can't say I have. Any way, I don't know what for sure yet how involved I'll be with LFF, but I will continue to look into what complaints I've read here I feel are ligit. So, thanks to those of you who used this site as a christian should. God bless.

Anonymous said...

NEVER be afraid to ask questions. Especially of your small group leader, or of the leaders at CCF. Make them answer your questions, and don't be afraid to ask them about this website.