tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-155890252024-03-13T12:48:35.742-07:00The Truth About Living Faith Fellowshipa church in Pullman, Washington<b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.comBlogger104125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-82232532079813309862008-04-16T21:13:00.001-07:002008-04-16T21:13:36.871-07:00the end?<p class="MsoNormal">The stories, memories and struggles shared on this site are real. These are the tales of hundreds who have suffered through the trap of Living Faith Fellowship in Pullman, Washington.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">We will never escape the memories and some wounds will never heal. But many have found life anew, outside the confining walls of judgment, free from the lies of Living Faith.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">The comment boards will remain open for discussion, because flashes of pain and anger haunt, and sometimes you simply need the ear of someone who understands.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">We pray this site will serve as a beacon to future seekers.</p><div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com126tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-69581239205169096652007-07-12T11:06:00.000-07:002008-04-16T21:17:42.234-07:00from the commentsAnd so we go, sometimes forward, sometimes to the places we started, time, unforgiving train, never stopping to wait for any. Each with a thought of what we would if we could, or maybe what we wouldn’t. Familiarity we share, never waiting permission, clumsily pulls us together and tears us apart. Regrets we know better than to have, an itch, there to remind us when our minds finally find rest.<br /><br />We were only children. How could we have known? Who should we tell that we had to watch our parents cry? It was for God! Wasn’t it? We were going to be righteous. We were a step above, set apart. We were on fire, righteous indignation. We did what we had to, anything, to survive. Some fought, some ran, and some learned to pretend.<br /><br />The good news, I stopped caring. The bad news, about anything. That’s why I’m not mad at you, I lost that ability when I was 12. I’m indifferent, I think. Except for one thing. I would drag myself, crawling, across all the hot asphalt in the world, to save your children from you.<br /><br />I’d introduce them to the God you lost somewhere in all your religion.<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com75tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-9016190402834900442007-06-29T18:14:00.000-07:002008-04-16T21:16:12.549-07:00Catching Up<span style="font-style: italic;">Received via email sometime ago. Sorry for the delayed post.</span><br /><br />It’s been thirteen years since the Lord Jesus rescued me and brought me out of darkness (LFF) and into His marvelous light. I only spent four years there, but they were the formative years of my relationship with Jesus, and it has taken years to unravel the harm that was done to my soul by abusive leaders. He has been so gracious to me throughout this entire experience and tonight after reading the blog I am filled with faith that each of you will find your road to healing in Him and be made whole again, or for the first time. Your pain is real. I validate you, not that you need me to validate you, or anyone really, but sometimes that helps. I was not so fortunate. I did not have a blog to turn to. In fact, the first church my hubby and I attended didn’t even know what to do with me, so we began going to every church in our town and surrounding towns looking for someone who understood and it was a few years before I met someone who had been through a Shepherding movement and was delivered from it. He and his sweet wife heard my whole story-it took hours and hours. They cried with me, held my hand, we got on our knees together and wept and cried out for Jesus to heal my broken heart. This validation healed me. I had thought I was losing my mind and had disqualified myself like Esau from his birthright (because I married a divorced man). I left that room a healed woman. I got in my car and felt happy for the first time in two years. These sweet people were so wise. They told me to be patient with myself, to forgive myself frequently, to talk to Jesus a lot, that He was not some mean dictator in Heaven waiting to hammer me into dust and that it might take years before all that ugly pharisaical leaven would be worked out of my life. They were right. Even as I read this blog I realized that some of the issues I have with my darling daughters is because of the harshness in discipline I experienced myself at LFF.<br /><br />I also learned through the years that Our Father in Heaven is nothing like these people who ruled over us with an iron fist and kept us in fear. He is kind, and it’s His kindness that leads us to repentance, not someone digging around glaring at you and confronting you with your “whatever” sin. NO, He is not like them at all. He saved me from this mess and I still thank Him to this day for His amazing love towards me. I also thank Him because the man I married is also amazing. He has been so patient, gracious, loving, and gentle with me over the years. He has also endured much as a result of what I allowed LFF to do to me. When I got done reading this blog I just ran over to him and thanked him for being my hero. He told me that I was worth it all! At LFF I was not worth much at all, always screwing up, always being confronted with my attitudes and sin. Now, I must admit, there were times this was merited, but again, I have learned that the Holy Spirit, given the chance, will convict you of all sin and give you the opportunity to repent and change. They never gave Him a chance. The other thing is He is gentle and lowly and they were harsh and vindictive. In order to heal well we must discover first who God really is—not looking at people, but at Him. How we choose to view Him will determine everything.<br /><br />I thought it would be valuable to write to encourage the wounded to persevere—healing is possible. God has been gracious to me and as I chose to be honest and lay it all out like it really was, in time, His love has covered over a lot of inadequacies. He has also restored so much. At the ten year mark, after I left, I received a phone call from one of my precious friends from those days, she asked me to forgive her and I was at that time ready to do so, then another wrote asking for forgiveness, then Kari and I saw each other and she asked me privately, away from our mutual friend, to forgive her, thankfully, I already had. This was another piece of the healing-to be able to forgive before being asked, but that takes time. Then, Julie Kobelin called and asked me to forgive her (she had been the most abusive towards me) and I already had forgiven her too. She wanted me to specifically tell her all that she had done to hurt me so she could specifically ask forgiveness, but the cool thing was, I couldn’t really think of anything, all the sting was gone. Love had covered over the multitude of inadequacies. Now, I do not have any real relationships with anyone from LFF except one and she is a treasure indeed, but I have no desire to pursue any of those relationships. It is time to move forward and those that really loved me came forth—one. That is a sobering reality after you spent so much time with people only to discover what you thought was real wasn’t all that real after all. I really have no issues with anyone from LFF anymore. However, I have a huge heart for those on this blog and those who are even now being harassed. I have been praying for years for freedom to come to this place. I will not give up in prayer.<br /><br />Reading about the PCS kids breaks my heart to pieces. I will commit myself to pray more for you. You suffered the most. I was a nursery worker and loved you so very much and my heart ached that you were never with your parents…oh sweet souls may He who is able bind up every single one of your wounds and plant you by healing waters. There is a chapter in Ezekiel 34, I think, anyway, about the bad shepherds and the sheep roaming the hills, you are those precious hurting, lost, and wounded sheep wandering the hills, but not forever—hang in there.<br /><br />I guess we all want to tell our story. It amazes me that when I attended LFF no one dared ever speak any of these things, yet so many of us were feeling them…big sigh…we were just being critical, oh how we needed to know that testing the spirits is of God and that we also were the Lord’s anointed…..how dare they touch us…His sweet children…may the Lord have mercy.<br /><br />I was a brand new convert zealous for Jesus and eager to find a church like the one in Acts. I thought I found that at LFF. My life was transformed at Heartbeat Retreat. It was the real deal. I have not been the same since. Water baptism was powerful for me and I spent my whole Freshman year full of the Holy Spirit and just so in love with Jesus and following hard after Him in any way I could. I did not start out wanting to please leadership only Jesus. This was a great year for me. I found freedom from my previous life of sin and rest for my soul. I will always remember that year with great fondness. Then, I became a JCD my sophomore year and that all changed. The truth began to stare me in the face, but who would dare say anything, not me, I didn’t want to be rebellious, or critical, even though I always was found that way. I was a messy person, messy with a lot of worldly baggage, a lot to undue to become more like Jesus, but now I see, I was a mere infant in Christ…holy moly…it’s a miracle any of us survived this kind of scrutiny.<br /><br />The first time I realized that something was seriously wrong was when the Koeblins were leaving for Russia and I went home and cried tears of rejoicing because Julie wouldn’t be around anymore to torment me with her ceaseless demands and cruel words. I couldn’t tell anyone why I was crying, it was so lonely. Then, that summer after visiting my mom, after begging for permission to be released from my unbelievable ministry responsibilities, I was on my way to Pullman, pulled off at Ellensburg for gas and when I got back on the highway and without realizing what I was doing I found myself heading back towards my mom’s house, oh, how I should have kept on going….it went on like this in many ways my whole senior year. The Lord was good to me and caused me to have a back problem right after my senior year that forced me to rest and made people say way judgmental things to me about my condition. God totally healed me, but then I was in massive pain due to the healing….<br /><br />During this time it became even more obvious to me that He wanted me out of LFF, but I was struggling because my pride was so invested into this place. He and I argued a lot about this, but He kept bringing situations so I couldn’t avoid the truth anymore. When I left to student teach I actually felt strings being cut from my back (like rubber bands) and the strings were retracting back to LFF. I felt free and felt guilty for feeling that way. I had no idea that my high school sweetheart was waiting for me to get home so he could steal me away from this craziness—he was my knight in shinning armor, though at the time, I thought he was sent by satan. Finally, the Lord convinced me that it was truly His will for me to marry this great guy, so of course the cost on my side was losing all my “friends” at LFF, but many had already forgotten me, out of sight, out of mind, but I went back one last time just to be sure it was God that I marry this guy—of course the leadership said no, he was divorced and used goods (even though this happened when he wasn’t saved…the unpardonable sin…) and as I was there I was sooooo confused, but it was good to see them all. I really missed everyone. On my way back to my mom’s house my car broke down on the pass and God told me that my boyfriend needed to be the one to come get me although I called many and many were willing…I had stayed totally pure in my relationship with him, but the thought entered into my head that if I slept with him I would be so humiliated that I would never go back to LFF and it would be easier that way-YIKES, so I lured that poor guy and made him compromise himself too---just so I wouldn’t feel so condemned about leaving LFF. That is my largest regret—that I didn’t have the guts to just leave LFF, but thankfully, God has forgiven us this also, but I saw clearly how whacked this whole thing was and just said good-bye.<br /><br />Now, I have to say that I really do believe that God takes everything and works it for good and I have often thanked God for all the many things HE did in my life while I was there. I did learn how to serve others in love, I did learn how to do everything as to the Lord, I do have a solid foundation that I have continued to build on, I did learn how to hear His voice and how to go against the flow in order to follow Him. I am grateful that there was good to be taken from such a harmful situation. I still have a whole lot of love for people who have left and the people there. I actually really love the Vances and pray for them often. I didn’t know the Barden’s all that well, but I do pray that they would find freedom and seek to restore what they broke down. I believe all things are possible. I really believe He is who He says He is and that His word and His Spirit are enough to satisfy and bring us to wholeness again. I pray that as believers we will stop harming each other and start assisting each other in His love and under His direction, not under man made religious systems full of the traditions of men. I pray for the Church that call themselves by His holy name to rally under His banner which is LOVE. I pray for people to stop following men and their opinions and to follow Jesus the Christ—our savior our kind Lord.<br /><br />We home churched with another couple for five years and it was the BEST…we really learned how to rely and depend on Him alone. He has just recently brought us out of the wilderness and called us to break down religious systems that are killing God’s precious children. I feel awake, alert, and sound of mind for the first time in too many years. God’s spirit is moving everywhere…He is roaming the hills and finding His lost sheep and restoring them. In fact, one of the small home groups we attend is called: Compass Ministries, our whole focus is Jesus and being His hands to comfort those who have had so much stolen from them. God keeps collecting them and bringing them to us. God is raising up an army of those wounded who He is healing and He is taking their brokenness and glorifying Himself in it. The world doesn’t want religion---it wants a Jesus who saves them from the torment of sin!!!! The church needs a Jesus who is real and binds up their wounds.<br /><br />Oh I pray for the comfort of these hurting people Jesus, be ever near their aching hearts, place your presence around them that they may know that Your love is perfect and Your ways are sound. Touch them with gentleness and take off heavy yokes and burdens and show them that Your way is easy and light. Lift off the depression, self-loathing, and sting of the harm done against them. Touch each one here with Your real concern and care for their individual situation. Jesus, bring back to them seven times what was stolen from them.<br /><br />I will keep praying.<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com22tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-24753797847081834422007-06-17T21:27:00.000-07:002007-06-17T21:29:42.815-07:00Quote"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -- Unknown<br /><br />Were the atrocities committed at LFF simply blindly done because of twisted theological beliefs? Thoughts?<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com9tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-82554676605710409092007-06-08T19:23:00.001-07:002007-06-08T19:23:37.179-07:00BaptismIn the 'Question of Forgiveness' blog Nikkoly said<br /><br />"I was just baptized again this past Sunday as a<br />consecration to the Lord, to free me form religious<br />bondage, spiritual abuse, and half truths that kept me<br />in despair for WAY too long. I came out of those<br />waters with even more love and freedom. I highly<br />recommend it for any who were baptized at LFF."<br /><br />For my husband and I, even though we don't agree with<br />a lot of what goes on at LFF, both of us feel that our<br />baptism experience was sincere and between us and the<br />Lord. We actually left a church recently because they<br />told us that unless we provided papers to show we were<br />baptized that we would have to get re-baptized to<br />become members. When we told them our reasonings for<br />not wanting to contact LFF, they insisted that we get<br />re-baptized no matter what. That didn't sit well with<br />us because to us baptism is between you and God, not<br />you and a church and it's certainly not to obtain a<br />piece of paper.<br /><br />We now have philosophical disagreements with the<br />speaking in tongues that was to happen "by faith" as<br />you rose from the waters (if you hadn't previously<br />been baptized by the holy spirit) but despite all that<br />I feel that God used my baptism, even if those<br />preforming it weren't totally correct, my God is big<br />enough to use that experience for his Glory. I don't<br />personally think I need to get re-baptized. Just as I<br />no longer believe that a saved person can be possessed<br />by demons and need deliverance; another LFF teaching<br /><br />I may have been taught some crazy wacked out doctrine<br />at LFF, but I think over the years God heals wounds<br />and rights wrongs.<br /><br />What are everyone's thoughts on the subject?<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com22tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-47823082369916027062007-05-21T23:05:00.000-07:002007-05-21T23:08:22.357-07:00Concerned Family...<div><span style="font-style: italic;">Received via email. Is this familiar to anyone?</span><br /><br />Hello,<br /><br />I'm not sure if you're who I should direct this letter too, but if not, if you could direct it to someone else? I would really appreciate it.<br /><br />My sister is currently on multiple anti-anxiety and anti-depression medications, plus some to help her sleep. Despite the medication, she has anxiety that won't resolve and frequent migranes. We think a lot of her stress is due to the church she has been attending. Almost 6 years ago my sister moved to Pullman to attend college. She'd always been pretty quiet and never had a large group of friends, so we were happy when she said she was attending a church down there and had made many friends through it. However, the more she talked about it, the more uncomfortable my family was with the church. Her activities in the church began to take over her life. Whenever we tried to talk to her about it, she just brushed it off and said she'd finally found a church where she really wanted to participate. To us, however, it seemed like the church was drawing her in and not allowing her the time to make friends or participate in activities outside of it. At one time, she was even set on going to an African country deep in war on a service mission. She said the church told her she'd been called to go. She hadn't felt called, they told her she was. Luckily, it ended up not working out for her to go. The past six years have been agonizing as we recognized there was something not right about this situation, but were powerless to change things. Now, thankfully, she has decided the city does not allow her to finish the training needed in her career and she will be moving back home in a few weeks. We are ecstatic that she's leaving the church and cannot wait for her to come home. I don't know how deeply this church has affected her over the past years, and I want to be able to help her get over some of the things that have been impressed into her.<br /><br />After this long ramble, my question is, do you have any advice on helping someone who has just left the church? I think she's still a big fan of them. I like to think that she will just magically be okay, but I worry that may not be true. Any advice you could give would be greatly appreciated. </div><div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com12tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-53903689790981709682007-04-18T22:51:00.000-07:002007-04-18T22:53:51.439-07:00Question of Forgivenes<span style="font-weight: bold;">Received via email:</span><br /><br />I have seen many times on the blog, and often wondered myself why the current, and past Sr. Pastors would not admit any fault or ask forgiveness for the wrongs they've done. It's so obvious to all of us that they had major flaws in their practices, but that they turned such a blind eye to it. They put the wrongs back on our shoulders as we went and talked with them about specific issues. <br /><br />I have been gone from lff for many years now and have heard stories of various pastors asking forgiveness. I'm pretty sure that all of the pastors (except Bardens and Vances) have been very open about admitting wrong and asking forgiveness. I'm wondering if anyone has been contacted by the Bardens or the Vances or talked to them and had them admit wrong or ask forgiveness. I'm not talking about forgiveness like at the members meeting where everyone went to the microphone and put it all out on the table and they said "Please forgive us" a hundred times and mostly on behalf of the Sr. Pastors who weren't present at the meeting. That was helpful in the sense that it was one of the first times were all able to be truly honest at a members meeting, but I'm talking about a more real conversation where they say that they were wrong and that they are sorry for the hurt and damage they caused? Just curious. To me, that says a lot towards real change. So far I haven't heard of it happening other than outward changes to church meetings and home group structure types of changes.<br /><br />I know that Beckers and Kobelins have asked forgiveness; the wife-halves of those couples have asked forgiveness of folks. Interesting, I hadn't thought of this before, but I think all of the women in the church had a whole lot more to forgive than the men. I have a lot of respect for the fact that they can admit where they screwed up and apologize. This could be a tough one to comment on without exposing who you are but I'd love to know if there is any recognition that they did wrong and they are making things right. It won't make me run back to lff but it will help me to know God is working on their hearts--maybe. I still pray for that. They've had their chance with me, and I would never put myself in the position to be hurt by them again. That would be foolish. But for the future since they are still ministering, I hope and pray that they will do better with those that walk through their doors. <script><!-- D(["mb","\u003cbr\>\u003cbr\>Thanks for reading, and I hope to hear that something is happening in this area. If not, well, I guess I will continue to pray. God is big enough to do it, if He so chooses. \u003cbr\>\u003cbr\>Take care, \u003cbr\>pastlffer\u003cbr\>",1] ); D(["mb","\u003cspan class\u003dad\>\u003cbr\>\u003cbr\>\u003cp\> \n\n\n\n \u003chr size\u003d\"1\"\>Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?\u003cbr\> Check out\n\u003ca href\u003d\"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt\u003d48245/*http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html;_ylc\u003dX3oDMTE1YW1jcXJ2BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDbmV3LWNhcnM-\" target\u003d\"_blank\" onclick\u003d\"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)\"\>new cars at Yahoo! Autos.\u003c/a\>\n\u003c/p\>\u003c/span\>",0] ); D(["ce"]); //--></script><br /><br />Thanks for reading, and I hope to hear that something is happening in this area. If not, well, I guess I will continue to pray. God is big enough to do it, if He so chooses.<br /><br />Take care,<br />pastlffer<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com46tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-60006274660711034682007-04-12T21:27:00.000-07:002007-04-12T21:27:44.732-07:00The nail that sticks out gets hammered<span style="font-weight: bold;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">Received via email.</span></span><br /><br />When I was at LFF it seemed to me that anybody who had a differing idea on any subject was silenced. You were to "disagree agreeably" which meant shut your mouth <span style="font-weight: bold; font-style: italic;">and</span> suffer the consequences of your actions. You were treated with suspicion of being a dissenter, your life was meticulously picked apart and minor things were turned into major "sin issues." If you "Rebelled" or refused to conform, you were ostracized, excluded, even excommunicated just as many others have stated on this blog. The divisive and manipulative leadership of the Living Faith Fellowship uses this fear to suppress and control the people.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Since my exit from LFF I wonder if there are any left who battle "Group Think".<br /></span>Are those who go against the flow still treated the same way? In hindsight, I should have been more of a thorn in their side, doggedly questioning publicly their practices and ideas. Lowering my shoulder, persevering in the face of their devices. The sacrifices of a few meant to ease and prevent the suffering of many and better the health of the church.<br /><br /><span style="font-weight: bold;">Those who read and agree with me,</span> please speak up. The ongoing refusal to publicly <span style="font-weight: bold;">admit</span> wrong and accept <span style="font-weight: bold;">any</span> <span style="font-weight: bold;">form</span> of criticism is one of the main weaknesses of LFF's current leadership. If you are currently attending the church and striving to make a difference, I admire your efforts, but don't let them get the best of you. <span style="font-weight: bold;">You will find support here on this blog</span> as well as from others within the church who do not accept the Group Think--if there are any left. I am sure the admin of this blog would post your account, igniting a dialog and penning a record.<br /><br />Finally to the administrator(s) of this blog, You are a gentle man\lady and a scholar, I owe my thanks to you, this blog has helped me beyond description and I'm confident it has helped many others.<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com10tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-23521277135034040072007-04-10T08:56:00.000-07:002007-04-10T10:39:06.508-07:00The Irony of Living FaithNow days, when I think of my time spent at LFF I chuckle to my self and laugh as if it was a bad dream.<span> </span>I usually scold myself for being so foolish, and then I think about the many humorous and ironic things that I witnessed that could really only happen at LFF.<br /><br />Did you ever think that they should be called response to opinion forms?<br /><br />Have you ever been told that you lack self control by a fat person?<br /><br />Did you ever take a math class from CMT?<br /><br />Did you ever pretend to laugh real hard so that the people who were scowling at you would know you were touched by God?<br /><br />Does it ever seem odd that the people with the most screwed up family taught mirror?<br /><br />Living Faith is the only church I know that hasn't had a split: Instead of going to another church, all it's members just stopped going to church.<br /><br />The most judgmental people I've ever met preach that we should extend them grace.<br /><br />A pastor told me that if I wanted to continue serving in the areas that I loved I would need to come to morning prayer.<span> </span>Then she told me she stayed up all night and came to prayer at 6 AM.<span> </span>But at 7 when the meeting was over I was one hour late for work and she went to bed.<br /><br />Karl Barden would use many citations in "Leadership Class" from his favorite book "How to Win Friends and Influence People." He figured out the influencing part, but where are his friends?<br /><br />There are plenty more ironic things and I hope you can think of a few but I am a few minutes late for morning prayer.<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com23tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-53454640746654166712007-04-08T13:12:00.000-07:002007-04-09T17:15:29.628-07:00Easter Sunday<o:p> </o:p>Every year that I attended Living Faith, I dreaded one thing: door to door advertizing for the Easter play.<span style=""> </span>Now it’s not that I’m a shy person, it’s just that I’ve never been fond of people knocking on my door unless they were invited.<span style=""> </span>I don’t care if they are selling encyclopedias, campaigning for office, or just trying to get me into heaven.<span style=""> </span>I appreciate the effort but really, don’t need encyclopedias, I have an internet connection, I will be voting your stance on the issues at hand, and I am not interested in scientology, the Jehovah’s whiteness, or any other solicitation of any kind.<span style=""> </span>And I know that this feeling runs though out.<span style=""> </span>The moment the do-not-call list came out; it was set out in church, and passed in home groups and other meetings. <p class="MsoNormal">So regardless of how others felt, we went out into the streets and knocked on people’s doors.<span style=""> </span>Without hesitation we explained that we had the best show in town, like some crooked Broadway producers, and then finished up with an always strong “we’ll have donuts.”<span style=""> </span>And like that the door was shut and we would move happily to the next house as invite after invite was thrown right into the trash.<span style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal">For this act of self indulgence we spared no expense, printing thousands of half page color leaflets, and used them to proclaim to the city:</p> <p class="MsoNormal">“We don’t care to know you during the year!<span style=""> </span>Even though you’re my neighbor, I’ve been to busy to make you cookies because I’ve been serving at church.<span style=""> </span>I really don’t care to know you, unless you come to my church, so if you would like to know me, this card says where I can be found.” </p> <p class="MsoNormal">And year after year we engaged in this act of self promotion, wasting thousands of dollars and man hours trying to boost the attendance number for one day so we could feel better about our efforts that we put into our amateur production of a classic story.<span style=""> </span>And after it was all over we would spend a week or two, congratulating ourselves on a job well done.<span style=""> </span>Referring to the one uneducated person who had “never seen a betters show in there life” and who had obviously never seen another show before now.<span style=""> </span>Telling ourselves that we were almost as good as broad way, whilst the audience sat in the dark for 2:49 as a props crew of 23 or so bumbled along in the dark.<span style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal">I hear they no longer have to go door to door, but I went to the play today and it’s the same old.<span style=""> </span>Not an improvement since I left.<span style=""> </span>The leper gets healed, then Jesus dies, the leper is sad, then Jesus rises, then the choir sings everyone out on stage, you know, the usual.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">After I went, I was just thinking how happy I was that I didn’t have to be involved and flunk my mid-terms so people would like me.<span style=""> </span></p> <p class="MsoNormal">It’s a good feeling to be free.</p><span style="font-style: italic;"><br /></span><div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com18tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-23582217810014363702007-04-07T18:40:00.000-07:002007-04-07T18:52:46.680-07:00Administrative NoteWe have added a widget to the sidebar that will allow you to subscribe to the blog via email. We encourage you to also visit the blog and participate in the comments. There have been lively debates and insightful advice by many users, so please continue to contribute.<br /><br />God Bless and Happy Easter!<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-89466574540792400882007-04-06T11:48:00.000-07:002007-04-06T17:17:36.965-07:00Success of the blog<span>In addition to helping us all heal, the blog has been successful in other ways. While dealing with the establishment of Living Faith Fellowship and its puppeteers is important, spreading awareness is equally important and was one of the original goals of the blog.<br /><br />Some evidence of success:<br /></span><ul><li><span>When you search "Living Faith Fellowship" in google, the blog is the 4th result! Here is a little <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PageRank">more information</a> on how Google page ranking works</span></li><li><span>When you search "Karl Barden" in google, the blog is the number one result!</span></li><li><span>When you search "Kari Vance" in google, the blog is the 7th result. </span></li></ul><span>Blog readership:<br /></span><ul><li><span>At the time of this post, the blog has received 104,062 visits.</span></li><li><span>As many as 800 unique viewers a day.</span></li></ul><span>We have received dozens of emails from concerned friends, parents and families of current members asking for more information regarding this church. Many parents have voiced concern over their children's level of involvement, even to the point of some students not finishing college. Others have lost touch with loved ones because their lifestyle did not align with the church's moral views.<br /><br />Whatever the case, we hope that this blog continues to serve its purpose and help people make an informed decision about participation & attendance at Living Faith Fellowship. At the very least it may encourage people who currently attend the church to second guess what they hear sometimes and ask questions about why things are the way they are.</span><div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com6tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-46002133923224784172007-04-05T12:27:00.000-07:002007-04-05T12:31:10.493-07:00ExcerptsThe Question: "How many people are still Christians after LFF?"<br /><br />Excerpts from the comments:<br /><br /><p class="MsoNormal">-I feel closer to God to have a real biblical knowledge of him, rather than man's messed up views.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">-We SHOULD question, we SHOULD look for sincerity and for spiritual leaders who aren't all about prospering financially...etc. etc. etc. I'm finally happy in church again and my kids will grow up knowing the LOVE and GRACE of Jesus Christ. Lucky them...</p> <p class="MsoNormal">-We're just now (almost 10 years after leaving) getting a vision of what GRACE really means and learning to trust again. Sad to think we lost almost 20 years of our lives - almost 10 years there + almost 10 years post-LFF - to their skewed teachings. Thank God for the Christians He's brought into our lives since then who have helped us.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">-I do not believe in hell or sin anymore so I am not a Christian. I believe we humans make our own hell here on Earth. And so many things are done poorly in the name of God by we mere mortals. I am more about the Goddess and peace and love and karma and good deeds and yoga and NOT judgment and negative un-acceptance which is what I got from LFF.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">-not sure...not sure at all</p> <p class="MsoNormal">-I have become an Agnostic. I don't know if Christianity is true, it has no greater claim to truth in my mind than many other ideas. I am more drawn to the idea of no god(s) and nothing after death.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">-So really if Jesus is as judgmental as I was when I was in LFF I don't want it.</p> <p class="MsoNormal"><br />-There is so much corruption in the Christian community, that I've identified myself as a believer in God, but not a prescriber to religion</p> <p class="MsoNormal">-LFF was a very sad place for me. Even my family memories with my husband and children are not fond memories for me because it is all tainted with so much depression and anxiety.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">-If Christianity is based on what is taught from most of the pulpits in Evangelical or Charismatic (very little difference really), then I would have to say, No, I am not a Christian.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">-It wasn't Jesus who constantly was disappointed in us and judged us daily, it was the leadership of LFF. Jesus is full of grace and would never treat us as they did. So many of you are blaming other christians for your loss of Christianity. How sad that you give hypocrites in the kingdom of God more power over your lives than God.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">-God doesn't expect us to be perfect or he wouldn't have given us the gift of salvation. It was only LFF that expected perfection. I just can see that they really deeply hurt you but you shouldn't have to give up your salvation because of them.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">-LFF created such a distorted picture of who God is and what his character is...the Bible clearly says that it's "God's Kindness" that leads to repentance. God is not a judging God yet...some day he will be but not yet! He does not have some hidden measuring stick that he uses to see who measures up and who doesn't nor does he have a hidden agenda.</p><div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-27436490888900895172007-04-04T22:04:00.000-07:002007-04-04T22:11:13.744-07:00a changeDear DPR,<br /><p class="MsoNormal">We thank you for all the effort you have put into this site. You have posed insightful questions and moderated with grace. While we languished, in recovery, depression, and sometimes despair, you led on with dignity. Not all of us are healing and some never will. But some of us have conquered our demons, reached beyond the pain, and now seek to actively aid in the healing we once sought.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">We are a few of the originators of this blog and want to bring new life to the healing.<span style=""> </span>The anonymity of this blog has forced us to assume administration of this blog without consultation.<span style=""> </span>Thank you to past administrators (DPR included) and future contributors for your continued support of this important effort.<span style=""> </span>If you have any questions please email <a href="mailto://truthaboutlivingfaith@gmail.com/">truthaboutlivingfaith@gmail.com</a></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Readers,</p> <p class="MsoNormal">If you have healed from the spiritual mutilation, move on. But if you still find yourself fighting, struggling, and hurting, this is the place for you. Grieving is never easy, but it is a start on the road to recovery. Please continue to send your stories. Together we will mend and warn others, telling them The Truth About Living Faith.</p> <p class="MsoNormal">Thank You,</p> <p class="MsoNormal">Innocence Destroyed</p><div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com6tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-66002963154531918152007-03-16T10:05:00.001-07:002007-03-16T10:15:19.177-07:00Got Christ?How many people are still Christians after LFF?<br /><br />moderator's note: Let's get the discussion going. DPR!!!<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com26tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-54973145017092630102007-03-10T10:16:00.000-08:002007-04-04T22:12:15.983-07:00a queryI had a mom contact me concerning LFF because she stumbled upon this website. She said that her daughter is currently attending LFF and she hadsome concerns and she asked her daughter not to get baptized a few weeks ago. I talked with her daughter and her daughter was still not sure if whatI shared with her was totally acurate. I don't know if her daughter got out of LFF but she did share one thing with me....The people there have been telling her that God is going to harness her personality and I told her that they told me the same things and she felt a little pressured to do the Carpenters program and mirror programs. I just told her they are very manipulative and she should watch out for herself. I also tried to call her mom but the number her mom gave me was incorrect.<br /><br />This did pose some concern for me as to if this was a bogus thing that people at LFF were trying to mess with me or others because of anger and was possibly looking to sue someone. I didn't give any names in my conversation with the girl but if it is bogus watch out for yourselves. If in fact it is a true concern of a mother...I congratulate you for caring enough about your daughter to try and save her from this church. Bare in mind that most churches are not like this one so don't lump them all together but sooner or later if your daughter is still involved they will convince her that you don't understand what God is doing in her life and that she should cut her communication with you to minimal intervals. They did this with me and I ended up totally rejecting both my parents all in the name of growing in God in a way my parents would never understand. I have apologized numerous times to my parents for this and it has been a hard long road mending our relationship due to this matter.<br /><br />They will do the same with her. Pretty soon you'll start wondering if she is still on the planet or not...It has been a long hard road for me coming out of LFF but I have managed to hang on to my salvation through it all and many times just barely by tattered threads...I was suicidal for a while because I felt that God couldn't accept someone like me because I could never be spiritual enough and could never attain the servants heart that I was ment to have...this alldue to the things said to me and "SPOKEN INTO MY LIFE" while in attendance at LFF.I know now that God accepts me just how that I am and I will always have things to work on in my life but God is not LFF and not all christians are LFF and not all churches are LFF and my parents are not LFF and people around me are not LFF. GOD LOVES ME FOR ME!!!! And that's good enough!<br /><br />Editor's note: This is the first letter to post that we have gotten since December. We just want to make sure you know that the blog depends on you putting in content if you want the blog to continue.<br />thank you, DPR!!!!<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-19690882258167021742006-12-06T21:26:00.000-08:002006-12-06T21:34:20.200-08:00Missing LinkSomone brought it to my attention that the Cult Awareness List is a pretty questionable list. After some review, I decided to remove the link to it. If someone has other information, please post it here on the blog. I think that "Twisted Scriptures" describes LFF and other churches like LFF well enough. <br />DPR!!!<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com22tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-76929957655832220782006-12-02T08:29:00.000-08:002006-12-02T08:30:12.757-08:00Let it goDPR,I got this by way of e-mail today and it is exactly what I needed to hear - probably on a daily basis. I am constantly haunted by things LFF leadership said or did to me and though I feel I have moved on and forgiven as best I can I am aware daily of the impact their words and deeds continue to have on me. I read the blog from time to time and see so many other ex-LFFers still in so much pain. I've continued to hold on to dead friendships from that place, wrong images and deep hurts. This message by T.D. Jakes is very releasing to me and I hope it can help others too. <br />**By Bishop T. D. Jakes, Dallas, Texas<br />There are people who can walk away from you.<br />And hear me when I tell you this! When people can walk away from you, let them walk. I don't want you to try to talk another person into staying with you, loving you, calling you, caring about you, coming to see you, staying attached to you. I mean hang up the phone.<br />When people can walk away from you, let them walk. Your destiny is never tied to anybody that left.<br />The Bible said that, "They came out from us that it might be made manifest that they were not for us. For had they been of us, no doubt they would have continued with us." [1 John 2:19]<br />People leave you because they are not joined to you. And if they are not joined to you, you can't make them stay.<br />Let them go.<br />And it doesn't mean that they are a bad person. It just means that their part in the story is over. And you've got to know when people's part in your story is over so that you don't keep trying to raise the dead. You've got to know when it's dead.<br />You've got to know when it's over. Let me tell you something. I've got the gift of good-bye. It's the tenth spiritual gift. I believe in good-bye. It's not that I'm hateful, it's that I'm faithful, and I know whatever God means for me to have, He'll give it to me. And if it takes too much sweat, I don't need it. Stop begging people to stay.<br />Let them go!!<br />If you are holding onto something that doesn't belong to you and was never intended for your life, then you need to......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />If you are holding on to past hurts and pains......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />If someone can't treat you right, love you back, and see your worth......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />If someone has angered you......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />If you are holding on to some thoughts of evil and revenge......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />If you are involved in a wrong relationship or addiction......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />If you are holding on to a job that no longer meets your needs or talents......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />If you have a bad attitude......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />If you keep judging others to make yourself feel better......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />If you're stuck in the past and God is trying to take you to a new level in Him......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />If you are struggling with the healing of a broken relationship......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />If you keep trying to help someone who won't even try to help themselves......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />If you're feeling depressed and stressed......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />If there is a particular situation that you are so used to handling yourself and God is saying "take your hands off of it," then you need to......<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />Let the past be the past. Forget the former things. GOD is doing a new thing for 2007!!!<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />Get right or get left... Think about it, and then...<br />LET IT GO!!!<br />"The Battle is the Lord's!<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com13tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-15190280071233950212006-11-14T22:56:00.000-08:002006-11-14T22:59:36.613-08:00new lookHi all, just experimenting with a Beta Version of Blogger. There are some things we would like to see on the blog (like truncated posts, and a list of recent comments). So we will see what we can do to make this work better. <br />FYI, since no one has submitted new posts (hint hint) people are going back and commenting on older threads, so don't forget to look back. There have been some great comments, that would be a shame to be missed.<br />Thanks, DPR!!!<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com5tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-1161791105255830362006-10-25T08:44:00.000-07:002006-11-14T22:19:08.681-08:00A call for unityPreface: <br />ALLL-right. I am going to write this blog... know that I write out of love. Wholly out of love. Keep in mind that this earth is temporal, and I just long for Heaven. Heaven on earth is not achievable, but we are called to work for it anyhow. <br /> <br />Also, I'm sorry, but I am ADD. Or maybe that's just my excuse for my extreme fondness for parenthetical self-interruptions. I do not call them digressions, for I find that in my musings they add a depth... it's like breaking down an essay into an outline. You get many levels of specification. Or application. So, I apologize. I'll restrain myself as much as possible, and when it proves impossible, I will do my best to avoid confusing you. And when that proves impossible, then add a comment to this blog telling me that I failed utterly. I would be thoroughly amused. :) It wouldn't offend me since ultimately I am writing for myself.... stop. Now THAT was the beginnings of a digression. <br /> <br />Prologue:<br /><br />My heart is sortof breaking right now... though, it's hard to break what's already broken. Hm. <br />We people are so cruel. We human beings... why do we hurt one another? <br />Note: I am not from Mars or anything. I am a human being, and thus wholly include myself in all allegations against humankind. <br />For several years now, one of the things that has weighed heaviest on my heart is the severe disunity of the Church. Gah! I fell into the trap of generalizations... calling Christians as a whole "the Church" is like calling the United States as a whole, all its government(s) and people(s) "the State." As with all generalizations, judgements passed often do not apply on a narrower, more specified level. <br />Huh. I've already had three disclaimers, and I haven't even gotten close to the point. I'll just plow ahead, then. <br />Severe disunity. It's like a human body, the Church. Or the church... either way. God shows us so much through how he has ordered nature. Single-celled organisms... very little. They exist of themselves. They, like every other living thing, cannot claim full independence. Everything needs its environment to live. A little bacteria in a human body, though it's its own self, needs the human body to live and function just like the human body needs the oxygen in the atmosphere and the water and a number of other external things in its environment to survive. Hmmm... A proton needs an electron and neutron to serve its purpose. An atom needs other atoms in order to fulfill its potential... to "live," per se. A molecule needs other molecules... An organ needs the other organs to function and to make a functional cell... A cell needs more cells to make an organ (bigger organ, this time), and that organ needs other organs to make a body. A body needs an earth. Earth has its incredibly specific needs in order to function ("live") as Earth. {Sidenote: It wouldn't seem that way, since the Earth just sortof is suspended in nothing. I would have written that Earth is merely maintained by God... but our planet is not the end-all. It keeps getting bigger and bigger... the solar system, the galaxy, the cluster, the universe... though ultimately "through Him all things live and move and have their being." And as far as being suspended, lonely, in space—well, don't we all feel that way? And how do you think that little bacteria floating around in you feels? Well... if it felt.} Anyway, you get my drift. <br />So what would happen if the electron rebelled against the atom as a whole? What happens when an indwelling bacteria attacks its host? If a liver rejected its intended function? ... Eventually the smaller unit, as well as the larger, will die. Or change. <br />{Oh dear. I see the need for parentheses. I have to here state that I believe in civil disobedience. I believe in giving to Caesar that which he claims, and to God all that He requires. I believe there is Truth... human authority is not the ultimate authority. That said...} <br />I sense not only a disunity among individuals or individual ministries in the individual church, but a severe disunity in the Church—all churches who preach and claim to believe in Jesus and the Christ, Son of the Living God, who gave himself up as a sacrifice for our sins. The spotless Passover Lamb. <br />We're people… yes. Sinners… O yes, yes. I know. There's that saying, "If you are looking for the perfect church, just know that when you find it once you step inside it it will no longer be perfect." Where there are fallible people, there will be strife and some amount of pain on some level. <br />But that's not God's will. And God is the only true Unifier out there, for only he really Loves… and only he can change the heart of man. And it is God's will that we serve Him above all else, and love eachother right under that. It is His will that we undergo a transformation of the mind. It is His will that we be one with Him, and of one mind with one another. That's His will... Like I said, however: Heaven on earth... sinfilled, fallen earth...<br /><br />Body:<br /><br />Moscow-Pullman and the surrounding townlets (yep, baby towns) have almost innumerable churches. All this writing is about one in particular, and how it lead me to all these thoughts. This church's name is Living Faith Fellowship. <br />I have known many absolutely wonderful people in my time spent in Moscow who go to or have gone to LFF. When I first came to Moscow, I had been warned by a friend who was up here a year before me not to attend there. It wasn't something I really thought about. God pretty quickly directed me to and plunked me solidly down into the Crossing. Plus, as a Freshman who knew no one, Pullman seemed far away and finding rides didn't sound like fun. <br />It's a large church, LFF. The bigger the church, the more fallible people in one place. I was not perturbed by anything I ever heard about the church. Flying opinions don't find they're mark in me, sinking in and becoming my own. I will be the first to admit that I know very little about the church. <br />Today, however, I got onto a blog on blogspot… truthaboutlivingfaith.blogspot, if you want to look it up. <br />Basically, for those of you who don't, it's a blog begun by people who have suffered at the hands of other people and have left the church. I had, as I mentioned, heard things about the church. Reading people's writing about it has a very different effect. <br /><br />The reason this brought up the old weight on my heart is that, though I know the pain they are feeling is as valid as any feeling, it appears that the blog has no purpose other than to mull over, dwell on, fester with that pain. I read many different entrants' opinions and inputs. There are varying opinions. Some were from people still in the church, gently or not-so-gently defending what they know and love. Most are from people outside of the church. Some bitter, enraged, blatantly admitting an inability to forgive, and some gentle, more reasonable, less apt to throw into their comments phrases like "horrible people," though no less full of pain. <br />The blog's proclaimed purpose is thus: "We are an unlikely group of former members of Living Faith Fellowship recounting our experiences, pains and victories. Some left on good terms but still deal with the pain. Others left regretfully with tears of frustration hot on their faces and still deal with the pain. This blog is meant to shield others from the heartache, help in healing the countless wounded and perhaps provide a roadmap out for people who are still abused and hurting." Yet, in reading, there is a mass disregard for the "help with healing." There are many many recountings of personal experiences, and angry retorts, and high-emotion opinions. There is no one exhorting anyone to "love one another" and "love your enemy." There is little living out of "love is patient, kind—not jealous, bragging or arrogant, not acting unbecomingly nor seeking its own, not provoked, not taking into account wrong suffered…" and especially "not rejoicing in unrighteousness, but rejoicing in truth…" <br />It is obvious that these people have been hurt. I do not deny that. We cannot control what is done to us, only our response. <br />This blog is running wild. More people are being hurt by nursing their own pain… and the rift between those who have left and those who stayed is widening. We should want to strive for reconciliation! Not disunity! <br /><br />I am not perfect. <br />I am fully aware that any judgement I pass, <br />I am passing upon myself. <br /><br />We need to be founded on the Word of God. Don't dish out what's been dished to you! Work to restore one another, not enable one another to take into account wrongs suffered, acting unbecomingly in doing so. Such proclamations of the sins of others, even unnamed in the comments, is a sort of rejoicing in their unrighteousness! And in allowing this to continue on the blog, wallowing together in the muck of pain and bitterness, is a rejoicing in their own unrighteousness. <br />The blog could have been established as a shining spiritual victory over death and pain. As it is, it may take years to undo the further damage done. The blog could have been as Jesus turning the other cheek, the Amish families' forgiveness or their daughters' murders… as returning good with evil, "setting hot coals on their heads" (for, from the hurting's perspective, the church and those in it are the "enemy" to love… again, generalizing… take with grain of salt). <br /> <br />I am not absolving the church for whatever may or may have happened to create this response… <br />I am not absolving those who left for this response just because they are in pain. <br />--> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --><br /><br />I am not writing to pass judgement on anyone. <br />I am writing to pass judgement on everyone. Especially upon myself. <br /> <br />Reading this blog stabbed me. Not just with pain for the people hurting. Not just with pain for the church… or the Church, universal. It stabbed me with conviction. Personal and deep. <br />I am the pain-giver so often talked about in that blog. <br />I am the pain-dweller, who sits and rails. <br />I give in to my emotions and let sin run rampant, abounding with justifications. <br />I am both. <br />I am all. <br />I am a sinful human being.<br /><br />But, coming back out of myself, I can shout out: <br />Awake! Awake, O Zion! <br />Clothe yourself in your strength! Christ, who is your strength! <br />Clothe yourself in beautiful garments! Christ, who is your righteousness! <br />O Jerusalem, the holy city; <br> o="" church="" the="" redeemed="" and="" blessed="" of="" god=""> <br />Shake yourself from the dust, rise up, <br />O captives, <br />Loose yourself from the chains about your neck, <br />O captive Zion! <br />Awake! Arise! And Love! <br />Live, Love! And be FREE!</br>> <br />--> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> --> <br /><br />We do not fight against flesh and blood, but against the forces of darkness... <br />Stand firm. Cling to the Hope that you say you have, for He is faithful to keep His promises. He will go before you.<br /><br />O death where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com16tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-1161710946347865822006-10-24T10:27:00.001-07:002006-11-14T22:19:08.537-08:00Another lost friendTo the Dread Pirate Roberts,<br />I find it ironic that you took the Dread Pirate Roberts as your name as I left LFF at the time Princess Bride was still in the theaters. I left some close friends in Pullman one in particular was Lanni Mackenzie we both went to WSU in ’83. Lanni and I belonged to and worked for the same church in Tacoma in the early 80s. I am just wondering if you could perhaps tell me if you know her and if you could get in touch with her and give her my contact information.<br />I would appreciate any information.<br />Thank you,<br />Gail Ryder<br />Email: gryder@riadastaffing.com<br /><br />Note: posted with permission, DPR!!!<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-1161710931405435862006-10-24T10:27:00.000-07:002006-11-14T22:19:08.383-08:00Another lost friendTo the Dread Pirate Roberts,<br />I find it ironic that you took the Dread Pirate Roberts as your name as I left LFF at the time Princess Bride was still in the theaters. I left some close friends in Pullman one in particular was Lanni Mackenzie we both went to WSU in ’83. Lanni and I belonged to and worked for the same church in Tacoma in the early 80s. I am just wondering if you could perhaps tell me if you know her and if you could get in touch with her and give her my contact information.<br />I would appreciate any information.<br />Thank you,<br />Gail Ryder<br />Email: gryder@riadastaffing.com<br /><br />Note: posted with permission, DPR!!!<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-1161653882515153332006-10-23T18:37:00.000-07:002006-11-14T22:19:08.243-08:00Service to God or SchoolHi. I came across your blog some time ago and have found it interesting. I haven't read everything, but I've read a lot.<br /><br />I did want to add a comment to the blog. Actually, I'm hesitant about posting this, but I haven't noticed anyone else mentioning this. <br /><br />Many people were very involved at LFF, sometimes putting 20 or even more hours per week into service there. Many of those people were students at WSU or U. of I. I remember pastors claiming that the amount of time people were putting in at LFF did not take away from their studies, and I remember Pastor Karl or Pastor Sherri giving an example of a girl who was failing most of her classes, but after she was helped at LFF, her gpa rose to a 3.8. They never named the girl, and I personally didn't know anyone there for whom that was the case.<br /><br />I've wondered how many people did sacrifice study time and perhaps had lower grades as a result of getting too involved at LFF? Was that the case for anyone? I know of at least a couple of people who came to WSU with high hopes of, after getting their bachelor's degree, going on to medical school or to grad school to work towards a Ph.D. They got involved at LFF and before too long abandoned those dreams and settled for just the bachelor's degree.<br /><br />These days getting graduate degrees is no longer just for people who are brilliant or rich. Many fairly average people pursue advanced degrees. A lot of grad programs offer assistantships to a good number of students they admit, and these assistantships usually cover tuition as well as providing a stipend (which would take care of the cost of grad school).<br /><br />It seemed not very many people at LFF went on to grad school, at least compared to other WSU and U. of I. students. I know, there were many exceptions, and I could name some myself. But most LFFers I met considered their education complete after finishing their bachelor's degree and also taking classes offered at LFF as part of the bible college. I know Pastors Karl and Sherri got advanced degrees, and some of the other pastors there got master's degrees bestowed on them by LFFMTC. (I was there until right before the senior Bardens left when there were still several sets of pastors.) But were people who came there as college students not encouraged to pursue further education? What was the deal with that? I realize I don't have all of the information concerning that, but I did wonder what the truth about that was.<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com30tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-1161307860851000802006-10-19T18:29:00.000-07:002006-11-14T22:19:07.232-08:00The Emperor's New ClothesA story about Living Faith Fellowship:<br /><br />"The Two Swindlers" -played by Pride and Conceit<br />"The Emperor" -played by LFF Senior Pastors<br />"The Old Minister"-played by the Hearts of the Believers<br />"The Officials" -played by LFF Ministries<br />"The Cavaliers" -played by LFF Associate Pastors<br />"The Chamberlains" -played by Personal Ushers<br />"All The People In The Street" -played by All of Us<br />"The Small Child" -played by the Holy Spirit<br />"The Father" -played by The Father<br /><br />Only one comment:<br />Look at what the Emperor does after the truth is told.<br /><br />The Emperor's New Clothes<br />Source: Hans Christian Andersen<br /><br />Many years ago there lived an emperor who loved beautiful new clothes so much that he spent all his money on being finely dressed. His only interest was in going to the theater or in riding about in his carriage where he could show off his new clothes. He had a different costume for every hour of the day. Indeed, where it was said of other kings that they were at court, it could only be said of him that he was in his dressing room! <br />One day two swindlers came to the emperor's city. They said that they were weavers, claiming that they knew how to make the finest cloth imaginable. Not only were the colors and the patterns extraordinarily beautiful, but in addition, this material had the amazing property that it was to be invisible to anyone who was incompetent or stupid.<br /><br />"It would be wonderful to have clothes made from that cloth," thought the emperor. "Then I would know which of my men are unfit for their positions, and I'd also be able to tell clever people from stupid ones." So he immediately gave the two swindlers a great sum of money to weave their cloth for him.<br /><br />They set up their looms and pretended to go to work, although there was nothing at all on the looms. They asked for the finest silk and the purest gold, all of which they hid away, continuing to work on the empty looms, often late into the night.<br /><br />"I would really like to know how they are coming with the cloth!" thought the emperor, but he was a bit uneasy when he recalled that anyone who was unfit for his position or stupid would not be able to see the material. Of course, he himself had nothing to fear, but still he decided to send someone else to see how the work was progressing.<br /><br />"I'll send my honest old minister to the weavers," thought the emperor. He's the best one to see how the material is coming. He is very sensible, and no one is more worthy of his position than he.<br /><br />So the good old minister went into the hall where the two swindlers sat working at their empty looms. "Goodness!" thought the old minister, opening his eyes wide. "I cannot see a thing!" But he did not say so.<br /><br />The two swindlers invited him to step closer, asking him if it wasn't a beautiful design and if the colors weren't magnificent. They pointed to the empty loom, and the poor old minister opened his eyes wider and wider. He still could see nothing, for nothing was there. "Gracious" he thought. "Is it possible that I am stupid? I have never thought so. Am I unfit for my position? No one must know this. No, it will never do for me to say that I was unable to see the material."<br /><br />"You aren't saying anything!" said one of the weavers.<br /><br />"Oh, it is magnificent! The very best!" said the old minister, peering through his glasses. "This pattern and these colors! Yes, I'll tell the emperor that I am very satisfied with it!"<br /><br />"That makes us happy!" said the two weavers, and they called the colors and the unusual pattern by name. The old minister listened closely so that he would be able say the same things when he reported back to the emperor, and that is exactly what he did.<br /><br />The swindlers now asked for more money, more silk, and more gold, all of which they hid away. Then they continued to weave away as before on the empty looms.<br /><br />The emperor sent other officials as well to observe the weavers' progress. They too were startled when they saw nothing, and they too reported back to him how wonderful the material was, advising him to have it made into clothes that he could wear in a grand procession. The entire city was alive in praise of the cloth. "Magnifique! Nysseligt! Excellent!" they said, in all languages. The emperor awarded the swindlers with medals of honor, bestowing on each of them the title Lord Weaver.<br /><br />The swindlers stayed up the entire night before the procession was to take place, burning more than sixteen candles. Everyone could see that they were in a great rush to finish the emperor's new clothes. They pretended to take the material from the looms. They cut in the air with large scissors. They sewed with needles but without any thread. Finally they announced, "Behold! The clothes are finished!"<br /><br />The emperor came to them with his most distinguished cavaliers. The two swindlers raised their arms as though they were holding something and said, "Just look at these trousers! Here is the jacket! This is the cloak!" and so forth. "They are as light as spider webs! You might think that you didn't have a thing on, but that is the good thing about them."<br /><br />"Yes," said the cavaliers, but they couldn't see a thing, for nothing was there.<br /><br />"Would his imperial majesty, if it please his grace, kindly remove his clothes." said the swindlers. "Then we will fit you with the new ones, here in front of the large mirror."<br /><br />The emperor took off all his clothes, and the swindlers pretended to dress him, piece by piece, with the new ones that were to be fitted. They took hold of his waist and pretended to tie something about him. It was the train. Then the emperor turned and looked into the mirror.<br /><br />"Goodness, they suit you well! What a wonderful fit!" they all said. "What a pattern! What colors! Such luxurious clothes!"<br /><br />"The canopy to be carried above your majesty awaits outside," said the grandmaster of ceremonies.<br /><br />"Yes, I am ready!" said the emperor. "Don't they fit well?" He turned once again toward the mirror, because it had to appear as though he were admiring himself in all his glory.<br /><br />The chamberlains who were to carry the train held their hands just above the floor as if they were picking up the train. As they walked they pretended to hold the train high, for they could not let anyone notice that they could see nothing.<br /><br />The emperor walked beneath the beautiful canopy in the procession, and all the people in the street and in their windows said, "Goodness, the emperor's new clothes are incomparable! What a beautiful train on his jacket. What a perfect fit!" No one wanted it to be noticed that he could see nothing, for then it would be said that he was unfit for his position or that he was stupid. None of the emperor's clothes had ever before received such praise.<br /><br />"But he doesn't have anything on!" said a small child.<br /><br />"Good Lord, let us hear the voice of an innocent child!" said the father, and whispered to another what the child had said.<br /><br />"A small child said that he doesn't have anything on!"<br /><br />Finally everyone was saying, "He doesn't have anything on!"<br /><br />The emperor shuddered, for he knew that they were right, but he thought, "The procession must go on!" He carried himself even more proudly, and the chamberlains walked along behind carrying the train that wasn't there.<br /><br />Note, posted with permission, DPR!!!<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15589025.post-1160599153242910122006-10-11T13:33:00.000-07:002006-11-14T22:19:07.118-08:00Walk in the freedom of who God made youYou know I actually have turned LFF into some of the major News Stations of<br />TV asking them to run stories on churches like this. I don't know if<br />anything will evolve out of this but it would open many peoples eyes to what<br />is happening. It truly is like a cult which is something I was warned about<br />when I first moved to Pullman. God will blow this whole thing wide open and<br />when he does it's gonna be ugly for a lot of people. I can't say that I<br />feel sorry for any of them because I truly don't. I've had a hard time<br />forgiving what has happened to me. I was suicidal for a short while and had<br />to go on medication for it. I have since then bounced back and am moving<br />forward in freedom but not without many difficulties in forgiveness. I know<br />many people are mad at God for all that has happened but God is not people.<br /><br />I have faced many hardships in the past 2 years. My younger brother passed<br />away in a tragedy and he was 22 years old. My husbands Grandpa passed away<br />just a few days ago and his grandparents raised him so it was like his dad<br />passing away. It has been a nightmare to say the least but God is God and<br />always was and really pulled myself and family through. The things at LFF<br />seem so small compared to this and I found that I was very selfish and<br />holding on to things that I should let go. Those people don't care about<br />you and they never will and when you hold a grudge or bitterness or hate you<br />are not hurting them at all cause they are horrible people, you only wasting<br />your time and life keeping those weights on your shoulders. I know this<br />truly is not what you want to hear and I wouldn't have wanted to hear it at<br />all 4 years ago either and would have been angry at someone who tried to<br />tell me these things but those things will eat you up and you will spend the<br />rest of your life living your life as a victim and never a victor. If that<br />is one thing my brothers death proved was life is short and you never know<br />when you are going. God could close his hand on your life today. Don't let<br />those people continue to run your lives and how you function in everyday<br />life 1,2 or even 10 years later. I let them run my life for 3 years after I<br />left. That to me now looking back was 3 years too long. Don't let them<br />have the satisfaction. They are just stupid sheep being led to the<br />slaughter. Walk in the freedom of who you are and who God has created you<br />to be. Your personality does not need to be harnessed, you don't need to<br />work on your servants heart, you don't need to focus on God more and quit<br />your job or school so that you can be more involved in church. You can do<br />whatever you want. BUT!!! do it for yourself!!! DON"T LET THEM WIN!!!<br /><br /><br />~ If you want to contact me you can at Ra14589@gohighspeed.com. Otherwise<br />have a great day just doing whatever!!! :)<br /><br />Craig Elliott<div class="blogger-post-footer">LFF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP PULLMAN PCS PULLMAN CHRISTIAN SCHOOL CHURCH KARL BARDEN VANCE PULLMAN</div><b>Innocence Destroyed</b>http://www.blogger.com/profile/16298027562605219454noreply@blogger.com16