LFF has a FILE on YOU
Truth about Living Faith Fellowship's File Systems:
If you have ever attended Living Faith Fellowship, they have a file on you. The leadership has always tried to avoid answering such allegations about filing systems, as denying their existence would be an outright lie (not that lying bothers them). I first saw the file system while volunteering by vacuuming rooms at the church. I was vacuuming a room in the old brown church, which houses the PCS grade school, Bible 'college' and other miscellaneous offices. In the back of the room numbered 111, there is a closet which to my knowledge is always kept locked. For some reason on this day it was not.
I opened the door, curious as to what I would find. In front of me were many file cabinets. I opened one to find rows of files, all arranged alphabetically. Every file was on a different person, couple or family. Every file had a picture paper-clipped to the front. You see, when you first attend LFF they enrol you in a class called Going for the Gold, and snap your picture. While attendees assume that the picture just goes up on the wall, in fact it becomes a part of the permanent LFF file system, identifying the stuff in the files with you.
I was horrified, but it got worse when I actually looked in the files. In each person's file were stacks of reports from different levels of leadership. The Going for the Gold guides who helped people in the introductory studies wrote reports. The Small Group Leaders wrote reports. The Congregational Care Leaders wrote reports. The pastors wrote reports. Every report was on different forms that were distributed to these people for report-writing. And every report had initials or signatures of the higher level leadership and pastors that had read and reviewed them.
The reports I just discussed were cutthroat. They discussed the intimate details and secrets of the peoples' lives. Tales of marital disputes. Tales of problems with children. Discriptions of couples' aspirations to have children and the problems they had. Disscussions of childrens struggles in school and the disciplines suggested to parents. In the few minutes I saw what was in the files I was horrified. They were not censored and did not spare the people the privacy they probably assumed. Discussions and conversations that they had with their guides and immediate level leadership that they probably assumed were in confidence were regurgitated on paper for others. If the people knew their conversations were to be repeated, they would probably not have opened up. These reports were quite frankly a gossip chain which sent information all the way up the leadership structure to the head pastors, if necessary. Things in the reports were highlighted by the reviewing leadership, and highlighted items were sent higher. Info that was crucial or particularly sensitive were passed to the top.
My horror and what I saw was all brought home when I found my own file. In the file was a lot of information that I didn't even know about myself. There was my complete demographic info from the sign-up sheet for the Going for the Gold class. There was my picture, which looked more like a mug shot or passport photo, taken portrait style like all the rest with a light background for easy identification. There were reports of my "bad attitudes" and different "spirits" that I displayed when being corrected or chastised by leadership. The most eye-opening form of all was the one that described the first day I ever attended LFF. It was a form that is filled out by all of the section greeters at LFF. Every section during a service is covered by a couple that is supposed to greet the new people and then report on who came. The report on me told in detail the exact clothes I was wearing, along with the exact descriptions of the people with me. It told where I was from, why I was in town, and had a description of my thoughts on the service. It then had a spot where follow-up was assigned to a different LFF member who was supposed to check up on me.
Why all these forms are neccessary for LFF I do not know. Why they need to know all the intimate details of their members' lives I do not know. Some of these forms had information that was outdated and unnecessary. Many of the files were on people who had not attended church in years or more than a decade. However, their information and photos were still kept. I was disturbed by the audacity of the church to keep such records on their members, but I kept silent about them. In my opinion it is something that everyone who attends LFF should be informed about, and all of the records should be made public. I think there would be hell to pay if many of the members found out what was written about them and how their private concerns were spread around LFF leadership.
In recent years, I know that Living Faith has tried to move their file system to electronic records. Every saturday morning during the service crews that are required for members, there is a crew of people who have been LFF members for a very long time that are on "data entry crew." This crew spends their time working on the LFF database and entering data into it. The size of the database must be astronomical, simply due to the amount of time that has been spent working on it. In the files are many of the secrets of the members, but the files themselves are one of the biggest secrets of the church itself. I dare say that if the extent of the system were made public, the church membership outcry could be crippling. The electronic system eliminates the large concern of the paper trail the hard files created.
The descriptions above are not imagination or fantasy. They are the truth about file systems at LFF.
38 comments:
this is true i witnessed much of this happening as well as seeing the file room.
that is ALL true. i have seen it with my own eyes.
I was a Greeter, GG Guide, BTH teacher etc...I know that we had to fill out these reports for every service and every class. I felt at the time that the reason was honest. "A good sheherd knows the state of his flock." Since PK couldn't do it all, he needed us to help him. But, to think that they kept all of those records and to what purpose? I am sorry if I contributed to this. It is like a little piece of your soul is in a file cabinet.
The sad thing about the files is that we all trusted the people we confessed our sins to. Our trust is shattered and we will never again be able to confess sins to a church pastor or someone in church leadership without wondering where that information goes. I regret sharing so openly, honestly, and transparently. I gave LFF 100% of me, and then some, and the confessions that freed me, are now keeping me prisoner. I am a prisoner in my own soul, because I will never let anyone know me that well again. Confession is a good thing, and biblical, and I can know that forever in my mind, but in my heart I know I would be a fool to allow anyone that kind of closeness again.
I was on database crew. It was hard enough keeping up with everyone's current addresses. I seriously doubt that all of that needless data from the paper files has made it to computer files. I suppose you could scan it all, but who would type all of that nonsense?? It takes time. I'd be very surprised. My concern is that without hcg's now, that the paperwork is focused on the college students, as jcd's, and they will re-build with the new folks who don't know what they are getting into, and eventually they will be back to paperwork writing hcl's all over again. I hope and pray it never does, but I would never underestimate the determination of pkv and her love for information and control.
Funny...I was one of the 'chosen' children. I spent hours in Kari's office with stacks of Blue Sheets, and a high powered shredder. I must have been 12 or 13. I saw way more info than any PERSON, much less 12 year-old should have seen. Serenity now!
I was a greeter, crew leader, usher, etc. and knew of the incredible amount of files kept. I used to fill those reports out. Dr. Barden "confronted" me about my critical spirit and told me he had staff spend 2 work weeks compiling data on me from those files. They could only find two pages full of incidents where i had been "critical" therefor i could be rejected as having a critical spirit. I think his actions went beyond that of mere insecurity - way beyond. The files are real. The files are secret. The files are unethical and are used unethically. For deja vu read "the rise and fall of the third Reich", one of the classic books on WW2. Just a few Nazis SS officers could control a large population with records of gossip and through fear from brutal tactics. Record keeping was key. This was discovered because the invading US troops captured a Nazi SS headquarters before they could destroy their records. A facinating study in strong arm tactics. Another deja vu experience was seeing the Boy Scouts film on how to spot child abusers. They had a very bad experience where a homosexual had become a scout leader and systamatically abused little boys. The film outlines his tactics - very similar to LFF - frighteningly so. The principals of abuse are the same in whatever setting they are used.
You must have discovered the file room before i left because there was talk about moving the records to safe houses and computerizing them for ease of reference.
Another aspect of the secrecy is they pretend that "God gave them a word of knowledge" about some misbehavior to fake spirituality. I saw this first hand on more than one occasion.
I suspect that when they fall it will be hard. Jesus had a lot to say about people who abuse their fellow servants.
Regards, George N. Sally
When a sin is confessed, it disappears in God's eyes. The devil will try and remind us of those things to take away our hope and make us feel inadequate. Do you see the connection I'm trying to make? Did you remember Karl Barden (no Dr in my book) saying that if you have nothing to confess then you need to confess of pride? I guess, suprisingly, the data entry guys on crew were running out of work. :)
~ll
Karl is the one who needed to confess pride. Apparently, he was oblivious to the log in his own eye.
SCARY!!! A doctor's, lawyer's, or psychologist's office has to submit records to an individual requesting his/her records, so can I do the same? Any legal advice or practical advice, I would love to get my records! Hmmm, I wonder what it contains, especially if they have embellished or lied.
That gossip chain is very real.
People passed on information to their superiors in a way liken to under covert agents of the CIA. I was guilty of this as well.
Not sure if they still do this. I do not recommend giving them a chance to try.
It is interesting to see all the recent activity on this site.
"help in healing the countless wounded and perhaps provide a roadmap out for people who are still abused and hurting."
Is "being" hurt a choice? Wake up and smell the coffee folks. LFF is doing great things and if you dont jump in online or in the church your going to miss out.
All this negativity needs to come to an end. It TEARS me down when people tear LFF down. Literally it gives me stomachaches. WAKE UP!!!
I went to the church my whole life up to college and attended the church school k-10th grades. AND I LOVED IT. I'm not the only one either. I think every church or community will have strengths and weaknesses. Why is there not a site about how great it is?
My life would be different without these people.
Pastor Rod really spoke to my heart when he preached. If it weren't for him I may not have been inspired to really live out my faith.
Mrs. Whipple was an inspiration to so many of us. Really making us think for ourselves. When I look back, I think she was the best teacher i've ever known.
Mr. Gleason is very bright inspired me to work hard. If it weren't for him I would have never had the courage to give it my best.
Pastor Sheri is sooooo sweet. And taught me to be sweet. There are countless others and I an so thankfull for every one of them
Of the many people i know who talk bad about this church show no good fruit themselves. SO DO NOT LISTEN TO ANY OF IT> What are you really afraid of? Why don't you just look at that file so you can learn from your own mistakes and others.
I have nothing but good things to say about LFF, loving people, caring people and an amazing support system. LFF radically changed my life for the better and many others. I still have the church notes from sermons when i was a little girl. Now that I am out in the world, married and been to several other churches I see MANY strengths that LFF have that other churches dont have.
All i have to say to all of you blog readers is. DON'T LISTEN TO WHAT PEOPLE SAY> MAKE A DECISION ON YOUR OWN.
Is "being" hurt a choice? Wake up and smell the coffee folks. LFF is doing great things and if you dont jump in online or in the church your going to miss out.
All this negativity needs to come to an end. It TEARS me down when people tear LFF down. Literally it gives me stomachaches. WAKE UP!!!
I went to the church my whole life up to college and attended the church school k-10th grades. AND I LOVED IT. I think every church or community will have strengths and weaknesses. Why is there not a site about how great it is?
My life would be different without these people.
Pastor Rod really spoke to my heart when he preached. If it weren't for him I may not have been inspired to really live out my faith.
Mrs. Whipple was an inspiration to so many of us. Really making us think for ourselves. When I look back, I think she was the best teacher i've ever known.
Mr. Gleason is very bright inspired me to work hard. If it weren't for him I would have never had the courage to give it my best.
Pastor Sheri is sooooo sweet. And taught me to be sweet. There are countless others and I an so thankfull for every one of them
Of the many people i know who talk bad about this church show no good fruit themselves. SO DO NOT LISTEN TO ANY OF IT> What are you really afraid of? Why don't you just look at that file so you can learn from your own mistakes and others.
I have nothing but good things to say about LFF, loving people, caring people and an amazing support system. LFF radically changed my life for the better and many others. I still have the church notes from sermons when i was a little girl. Now that I am out in the world, married and been to several other churches I see MANY strengths that LFF have that other churches dont have.
All i have to say to all of you blog readers is. MAKE A DECISION ON YOUR OWN. In college I made a decision to go to countless of other churches in pullman and i discovered that LFF was truly an amazing church.
"if you dont jump in online or in the church your going to miss out. "
Miss out on LFF, yes. Miss out on Jesus, no. That's the problem with many LFF viewpoints, they are centered on how great the church and its followers are, instead of how great Jesus is.
Please do not worship false idols. There is only one God and he is called Jesus.
re: "I would never underestimate the determination of pkv and her love for information and control."
While the thought of her in control is scary, I can only hope she has since changed. Not going to put my faith in that though. Only in Jesus.
"LFF radically changed my life...."
If you grew up there then how did LFF "radically change" your life? What was your basis for comparison?
"All i have to say to all of you blog readers is. MAKE A DECISION ON YOUR OWN."
I would add that people should make a decision using the Words of Christ and revelations they KNOW come from God.
Don't make a decision simply based on what your friends are doing or by which campus minister calls you the most.
Any church can temporarily make you feel very special. Don't let this be your criterion when selecting which spiritual vine you want to become a part of.
sorry ya'll--i wrote this in 2 parts cuz too long.
From a completely uninvolved point of view--Files should be kept, for example, when someone is volunteering to work with children or similar activities in which someone could use their position to harm another--both to review to protect vulnerable persons, and in case of lawsuits to demonstrate that reasonable precautions were taken to prevent abuse. Detailed files with criticisms on every church member? Absolutely not. Do we know there is a great deal of surveillance in this world? Yeah. Do we do it? Sly as a fox or snake, gentle as a dove. If a Pastor is not able to remember what a member has discussed with him, like a nurse or doctor, he should say, I know we talked about your son before, refresh my memory about what is going on and how you have addressed it so far. Or even ask the person, Do you mind if I take notes on this and keep it in a file to review or discuss with other leaders to see what more we can offer to help you? Then, in documentation form, we nurses are not even supposed to be critical...patient refused medication due to concern about side effects. teaching provided regarding pro's and con's of taking medication, not Patient is stubborn and refuses med tho he's been told he'll die without it. Perhaps it is because Dr. Barden has this particular educational background that he feels this approach to "shepherding" the church is appropriate. However, I am certain from my own Bible study, that if Jesus faced off with those particular shepherds, he would have a few words to say about being deceitful to other brothers and sisters. And having church members spy on each other and criticize each other is unfathomable to me. Especially, for example, the "Chosen child"! What 12 year old should be exposed to that information, or privy to that information? That shows exceptionally poor judgment, and depending upon what was in the file, i.e. sex acts etc, may border on something less than legal. When the original disciples met to address disagreements, they first discussed it among themselves, then went to the churches and explained--we have been talking about this, this, and this. Peter feels this way, this new guy, Paul feels this way, and so and so feels this way. We have prayed and believe this is the best approach. Then Paul wrote to the churches and told them not to fight about piddley things. I can say this unbiased, because I was raised in and still belong to a Seventh Day Adventist church...look that up on the internet to read about being judgmental about piddley things.
part 2
As far as the files not being kept secret, if a file is being kept, the person on whom the file is being kept, should be fully and completely aware of its existence and contents, at least in a church. Even in the medical field, patients have the right to review their medical records. Ha! I worked in a prison for 5 years, and the inmates have the right to review their medical records. No, disclosure of the files existence when a pastor is cornered is not the same as being open about the files.
From my own experience, I do think everyone who has been hurt needs validation from other people. Yeah, Esther, you have to make your own decision, but don't forget to be compassionate and listen to other people's pain along the way. Maybe those leaders meant no harm, but I hope they have read these painful accounts and change their ways, because, evidence based, some people had no idea files were being kept on them, and the information kept was not helpful but hurtful. This, intentional or not, was sinful and without Christian Spirit. Sorry I am so long winded, I obviously need to confess my apparent pride and self conceit assuming wisdom HaHa :D Actually, I don't confess to anyone but Jesus, unless I have wronged someone and need to make reparations, and except in that case, my salvation is between me and God. If another Christian sees wrong in something I do, he should lovingly bring it to my attention, including why it is wrong, and support from the Bible. Everyone, from one Christian to another, I am so sorry for your hurt. I don't know much about LFF--I only found this forum searching for more of the awesome drive thru nativities, and Esther, maybe the good things at LFF outweigh the bad, (as in my own SDA religion, there are aspects I love, like the peace during keeping the Jewish Sabbath),
but Paul made suggestions to all of the churches in his letters. We all have room to grow, and we should be most critical of ourselves, especially if we are leading someone else.
(from a current LFF member)
Becky,
Glad you liked the drive thru! Please feel free to drop by the church again some time. We'd love to host you.
Some background on the issue:
The file system WAS disclosed to church attenders up front. It was one of the first things you read and signed when you registered for the introductory Bible class. I still have my copy in a notebook on my bookshelf. There was full disclosure on the file's existence...however not everyone understood just how extensive it was. Does that make sense?
When Pastor Phil took over, the file system was one of the first things he started to move away from. It took a couple years, but eventually all discipleship was officially made "paperless" and all personal record-keeping ceased. The entire collection of old files were then destroyed in late 2002 using an industrial records shredding company.
In my opinion, this issue is almost a decade old and needs to stop being talked about like it is happening now. A few years ago, I contacted the admins of this blog and asked that they remove or amend the post "LFF Has a FILE on YOU", saying that it was not only untrue but also intentionally scary-sounding. They refused my request, and cited the rumor going around that the LFF file system is now electronic and living in some secret data bunker somewhere. Obviously, this is ridiculous. But it shows just how deep the mistrust and suspicion has gone.
At Living Faith Fellowship, we have moved ahead, fallen down, gotten back up, asked forgiveness for our mistakes, and moved on. We have made peace with many of the people who have felt wronged over the years. And we have also been encouraged by the many thousands of people who have been blessed by the ministry here. We are not - and have never been - a perfect church. But we move forward knowing that there is much work to be done in the Kingdom of God.
As always, questions are welcome!
Thanks for sharing with us out here in blogland. It's refreshing to see a post come from someone that actually currently is a part of this organization. This is afterall, a blog entitled "Truth About Living Faith Fellowship". Sometimes it takes hearing both sides of a story to find the Truth
Here's a question: Does the information about individual sin still pass all the way up through the levels of leadership to the Senior Pastors? Maybe without being written down?
I hope not to offend with this question, I am just trying to see what things are now like there. I am glad that you no longer write down people's sins.
Blessings
While we are asking questions: what percentage does the Carpenter series teach for tithe?
When I was there I think Carpenter Series required 10% for membership. However, they did mention the 23% in their teachings.
Wow, if you only needed 10% for membership, you guys got away easy. When I was there, 23 1/3% was standard... and that was on gross income. I'm regretful about the impoverished way that we sometimes lived with tithing, PCS tuition, and many hours spent in free labor for the church, but I am grateful that I learned to tithe. I am especially grateful to the Lord for always providing employment for us so that we are able to tithe regularly. We learned to be cautious, though, and to think about where the money is going.
(from a non-LFFer)
re: "I'm regretful about the impoverished way that we sometimes lived with tithing, PCS tuition, and many hours spent in free labor for the church, but I am grateful that I learned to tithe."
Is this because you made a bad choice to go there or maybe because you volunteered for things that you didn't really want to do? Maybe neither? Maybe both? Maybe you were taken advantage of in a time of need?
Maybe this place just helped you grow the gonads to say "NO"?
I don't mean to offend, just trying to make sense of all these stories.
Either way I hope and pray that you are better off for it.
"Here's a question: Does the information about individual sin still pass all the way up through the levels of leadership to the Senior Pastors? Maybe without being written down?"
I am hoping someone answers this question. Otherwise I have no reason to believe that sin behind the original problem has been healed by the Lord.
to non-LFFer (12/16/2010)
Your questions are not offensive at all, and they are right on the money. It was a combination of all those things: bad choices, fear of what others might think, being taken advantage of - as well as really trying to figure out how God wanted me to live and glorify Him. My LFF experiences have positively shaped how I live now. I have no problem saying "no" if I know that something is not right for me - and I try to do the things that are most productive and worthwhile. I'm definitely better off, and I love my life.
To: 12/15/2010 8:35 PM
From: Current LFF member
re: "Does the information about individual sin still pass all the way up through the levels of leadership to the Senior Pastors? Maybe without being written down?"
I want to answer this delicately, because I don't want to come across as sarcastic or insensitive. But information flow across an organization is very difficult to do, even when you are taking notes. And since there are no notes being taken, there can't be a chain of information about individual matters going to the senior pastors.
With the exception of formal training or discipleship with the accompanying disclosure of pastoral accountability, there is no vertical flow of information.
Does that help bring some clarity? I'm happy to answer more specific questions if it would be helpful.
It seems like you are saying that in general, information does NOT travel all the way to the top. But in the case of things like
carpenter series there is more direct pastoral accountability.
Thanks for answering my question. I forgive you for this and it feels good.
You are welcome. :-)
Like I said, we are not a perfect church. We have made mistakes, but we have also done a lot of things right. Pastor Phil's heart is for us to move forward in humility, learning from the past while we press ahead into what God has for us, our church, and our region.
As always, feel free to contact us with questions.
"Pastor Phil's heart is for us to move forward in humility, learning from the past while we press ahead into what God has for us, our church, and our region."
Please do not make judgments about another persons heart!
I hope you know that any judgement you make will be cast back upon you. (I hope your heart is good when you receive your own judgments)
How can anyone know where someone's heart is? I would think that you can't really know this detailed information about someone.
It might be a part of your faith that their heart is there but that is a different story.
Um, I'm not really sure how to respond to that. My comment about Pastor Phil was a positive statement about his outlook on life, not a "judgement." In fact, it's pretty close to a direct quote from a sermon he gave several years ago (I'll try to track down the video).
As for knowing someone's heart...yeah, i think it is possible. The more time you spend with someone, the more you see the fruit of their life.
ok, ok,
I believe that you think pastor phil's heart is one of humility because he has thus claimed.
Please note however that it is possible to judge someone and come out with a positive outcome. You do want to be careful even when making these judgements
No.
I believe Pastor Phil has a heart of humility because I have seen the results of his life.
"By their fruits you will know them..."
I precluded my statement with "I believe".
I do enjoy though your corrective spirit.
Dude, you misquoted me, and then called me out as "judgemental!" What have I ever done to you?
"you misquoted me"
I actually used direct quotes
"then called me out as "judgemental!"
yes, I cautioned you against judging Phil's heart without real knowledge about what's inside. I do think it is fair of you to judge him based on his own words though.
"What have I ever done to you?"
I am not sure. I don't know who you are. Because you apparently have gone to LFF for a long period of time, you may have hurt alot of people. I may or may not be one of them
please take it easy on current lffer. It is nice to hear an inside veiwpoint.
I always knew in my spirit that "records" of some sort were being kept. It seemed as though when you confessed your sins, the "leadership" would never forget them.
Jesus forgives and forgets. Why on earth would records be kept on those who are washed by the blood of our precious lamb?
God have mercy on those whom believe this is okay.
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