Thursday, July 12, 2007

from the comments

And so we go, sometimes forward, sometimes to the places we started, time, unforgiving train, never stopping to wait for any. Each with a thought of what we would if we could, or maybe what we wouldn’t. Familiarity we share, never waiting permission, clumsily pulls us together and tears us apart. Regrets we know better than to have, an itch, there to remind us when our minds finally find rest.

We were only children. How could we have known? Who should we tell that we had to watch our parents cry? It was for God! Wasn’t it? We were going to be righteous. We were a step above, set apart. We were on fire, righteous indignation. We did what we had to, anything, to survive. Some fought, some ran, and some learned to pretend.

The good news, I stopped caring. The bad news, about anything. That’s why I’m not mad at you, I lost that ability when I was 12. I’m indifferent, I think. Except for one thing. I would drag myself, crawling, across all the hot asphalt in the world, to save your children from you.

I’d introduce them to the God you lost somewhere in all your religion.

75 comments:

Anonymous said...

I feel like this post sums up my feelings. I have become so apathetic towards anything. LFF desensitized me to life.
I stare blankly at anyone who raises their voice at me.
Nice post.

Anonymous said...

I know this does not relate to the above post, but it is important nonetheless. Does anyone know our rights in relation to the files that LFF has kept on us? Can we demand access to records and files kept on us? Can we demand said files be destroyed? What would be the proper method of going about arranging this with the church, without getting myself into a horrible discussion with Phil or Kari where they start using the manipulative tactics that kept me hostage for so many years? Do I have any legal rights here?

Anonymous said...

You might ask Scott B. I don't think that they are very "into" LFF anymore.

Anonymous said...

You may want to contact a lawyer and make a generally inquiry. I seem to remember signing something about the files. Does anyone recall that? It seems such a blur.

Anonymous said...

There was a time around 2001 where the leadership made members and provisional members sign documents saying we won't sue the church but instead agree to go into legal arbitration. I don't know how many people this affects, but if you signed this (which I did) it limits your legal options.

Anonymous said...

i didn't sign shit. nice to know i have that option... i just wonder how long phil vance will pretend we don't exist?

Anonymous said...

I wish some of you people and I mean you people in every sense of the word could step back and objectively read some of the things that you write. I can feel the hate in your hearts when I read the words you write.

I am going to say it cause I have too... White people get over yourself. In my experience only a self centered White person wallows in a dang pity party for as long as many of you have because of your differences with LFF. A person of color like myself has learned to take the bumps of life and move on. People of color have had no choice in this matter and have learned it is time to get living while you still have life.

"I want the file LFF has on me", do you realize the files that LFF has and the contents of those files are the property of LFF regardless if your entire life history is contained in the file. You people do realize that numerous files exist on you. If you have a safeway club card or costco card those companies have a file on you. Let us now ask ourselves why those companies have a file on you. Could it be to secretly tell the world you prefer diet soda to regular or to tell the world you use generic paper towels. Safeway and Costco keep a file on you to track your spending habits so they better market certain items to you. Why would a church keep a file on a person. Could it be so they could keep track of life events that pertained to the church so they could better minister to you.

It would be impossible of the Pastors to memorize all the things going on in the life of all the members of the church so the logical thing to do would be to write them down. By doing that it is possible to see if actual change is taking place or if you are just stuck in rut. Example 1989 repented for gambling problem, 1991 repented for gambling problem, 1993 repented for gambling problem.

Pastors are smart but are not going to remember that person X repented every other year for problem gambling. If it is written down the file will show, chronic problem more help needed than just prayer.

In my current occupation I keep track and maintain records on serval files. The files and the content of the files do not belong to people I track but belong to the government.

Ask yourself, will obtaining your LFF file make you feel any better toward LFF, toward yourself, toward God. I doubt it. You will get your file and then grow angry at people as you things out of context. You will become suspicous of more people and become the perfect Christian role model.

Get over it peeps, LFF has a file on you, me and lots of people. Every sad momemt in my life or failure in my life will not be traced back to my time at LFF. Take personal responsiblity and control of your life and move on. Two types of peeps in the world, sheep and wolves. A sheep is constantly looking for someone or group a flock to follow. A sheep is ment to be fleeced, bled and eaten. The shepherd that tends to your needs may also be getting you fat to slaughter at a later time for dinner. Join a pack vs a flock and be a wolf if you can. Mess with a wolf and we will bite back.

Get over it peeps life will not get any sweeter if you get your LFF file. Also I am not a current member of LFF. The bleating of the sheep just struck a cord in me.

Anonymous said...

While I don't know entirely if it is just white people whining and read a little reverse racism into the previous comment, I wholeheartedly agree with the rest of the sentiment. It is true that if you get your file, it will probably do more harm than good. It will dredge up old, painful memories and may even spark new insecurities. Phil and Kari Vance no longer have the time, energy or resources to do ANYTHING with those files, they are of no more threat to you. The best way to heal is to face forward and concentrate on your future instead of dwelling in your past. 20 years from now, your time at LFF could still be what governs your life OR you could look back and laugh at the insignificance of it all in the big scheme of things. I plan to look back, as I often do now, and just laugh at the crazy things, embrace the character building that happened and enjoy my life that I have now and will have for years to come. I will live in the freedom of knowing they didn't break me so I don't have to hold a grudge.

Signed, a WHITE girl who got over it...gasp!!!

Anonymous said...

I wondered how long it would take this blog, like the rest of the world, to lower itself to racial stereotyping.
All that we "white people" want, are reparations. Is that wrong to ask for.

And I'm pretty sure the point of this blog is to take personal responsibility and share a story that may save someone else.

Anonymous said...

My husband and I sought legal advise about the file back when we were in the heat of leaving and the raw painful wounds were still bleeding. The lawyer told us to write a certified letter demanding the file and giving them so many days to reply. Phil replied (late) saying that he was sorry to see us go and to remind us of the waiver we signed about legal action blah blah blah. The lawyer said waivers like that do not hold up in court especially if at the time of signing you were unaware of such files.
We dropped it because we didn't want to deal with Goliath.

Over the years we've realized that the file doesn't mean a damn thing. Sure they may have written down our sins and confessions and even our deepest secrets. But it's really no different than going to a counselor and saying the same things. Or like a few posters before said going to the grocery store etc. It doesn't matter. Government has files on us as well, if you read the fine print of credit card apps it says that they report information about you to the government.

The bottom line is yes we all probably told somethings to people we thought we could trust, and we all got burned. But if those things are so horrible that the LFF files are keeping you up at night than the secret is the issue not that it's written down somewhere. It's your own shame that is haunting you.

LFF isn't going to do anything with those files. They don't have the guts to do so. They'd be stupid to do so because it would open the flood gates of investigates about REAL issues such as the child abuse and neglect that goes on.

I think that the "person of color" should get over it as well. We are not living in a country of slavery anymore. We are not being subjected to discrimination as our grandparents were. We have more opportunities now than anyone have ever had. Calling us all "white people" is just stupid it shows us that you are judgmental and racist, not us. Not once in this blog has race ever been a factor. You have no idea what race we all are. You my friend are the racist in this group not us.

Anonymous said...

i hate RACIST "people of color" who try to make everything a race issue when that has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. I could validate this comment to you by indicating I myself am a person of color, but THAT IS NOT IMPORTANT!

Anonymous said...

Never called any of the people on the blog racist,I called you what you are "Whit People". Only a white person would take offense to being called what they are a White person so I know your white and during my 5 years at LFF as a member there were less than 10 people of color who were members. Pretty good calculated guess the majority of the people on this blog are white which is cool as it should be since the majority of members at LFF like 99% were white.

I simply point out the differences in culture between whites and non whites. Yes we are different and that ok's. In my 36 years of life experience I have noticed as a person of color that white people who are the dominant culture in America, tend to expect things to go their way and when they dont, not all but a good portion of white people dont seem to know what to do. In my opinion and my mine only, people of color know how to handle adversity better than white people. People color are better at it because dealing with adversity is a day to day, week to week occurance.

This topic of this blog started out about how a persons life has been desensitized to feelings and then switched over "can I get my file back." Sorry dude that life has lost all flavor and your a only a step away from the edge but darn it "I want my file." To the writer of the second comment I say get over it get a life get drunk get high get Jesus, get something cause ya needs help. I am using a bit of sarcasim but I cant help it. Writer of second comment you get my point, A person is sharing their intimate feelings and your self centered shallow butt cant feel any empathy or sympathy for the person other than "I need my file." I bet my soul you heartless bugger that you are "White". That fact that you are White and probably a woman doesn't matter.

To my former bro's and sis's I am sorry if I insult you with my use of the word White people, get over it. I apologize to you and your inner child who's feelings I may have bruised. I got a little carried away from comment writer number two who is so concerned about her file that she cant focus on anything else. Reminds me of how it was at LFF.

If you wanna hate at least know who you are hating. It is Carlos Verde aka Carl Green. My personal email is Verdemachine@yahoo.com. Email me your comments their and dont forget to tell me if your white :-)

Anonymous said...

Carlos - In terms of adversity on a daily basis - people of color do not corner the market. Anyone that is diverse has to face that daily and skin color is not the only marker of diversity. It includes religion, language, socioeconomic status, body size, sexuality, the list goes on...

This blog is this communities way of dealing with what has happened to them. And speaking for this white woman, if I decide to wallow and to discuss and to process what I lived through at LFF, who are you to question that choice? Who are you to put down my culturally learned style of dealing with life's issues. Please, tell me.

Anonymous said...

Newsboys
Million Pieces lyrics

They all fall
Like a million raindrops
Falling from a blue sky
Kissing your cares goodbye
They all fall
Like a million pieces
A tickertape parade high
And now you're free to fly

Carryin' a millstone malaise
It's been pulling down your gaze
You pound the pavement
It don't give or care
This weight ain't yours to bear

Why you holdin' grudges in old jars?
Why you wanna show off all your scars?
What's it gonna take to lay a few burdens down?
It's a beautiful sound

When they all fall
Like a million raindrops
Falling from a blue sky
Kissing your cares goodbye
They all fall
Like a million pieces
A ticker tape parade high
And now you're free to fly

When that muffled sigh
Says you're barely getting by
Cut your burdens loose and just simplify
Simplify

This is not your floor
You're going higher than before
Drop the weight now
Wait for the lookout guide
Look outside

As they all fall
Like a million raindrops
Falling from a blue sky
Kissing your cares goodbye
They all fall
Like a million pieces
A ticker tape parade high
Now you're free to fly

You've gotta lay that burden down
You're gonna lay that burden down
It's time to leave your burdens in a pyre
Set a bonfire

'Cause when you lay your burdens down
When you lay your burdens down
When you drop them burdens
What a free-fall
What a thrill
Bury them all
In a landfill

Anonymous said...

Can we talk about memories of CCF? The good, the bad, the ugly, the lame, the fun, the odd...

Anonymous said...

From an objective viewpoint, just want to clarify a couple points, for anyone who wants to know (please don't read sarcasm into this, none is intended):

1. When you began GGs, p. kev or someone read this paper saying something to the effect of 'this is like a training hospital, and in training hospitals, they take notes and the teachers communicate with the students about the patients, not in a gossipy way, but as a way to teach the students. Our pastors are training the younger leaders of this church in how to minister, so some notes may be taken to that effect..." blah blah blah. They said they'd write stuff down, we all said 'ok', or we dropped GGs.

Note: they don't read this if you begin Carpenter Series (the new version of GGs) because the leadership doesn't do paperwork like that any more. Praise God.

2. If you finished GGs, or if you finish Carpenter Series, you are asked to read and sign a paper saying that you agree with the Bible's teaching that Christians should not seek secular authorities in legal matters, they should try to fix the problem themselves, and that if you feel you need outside legal help, you'll consult the Christian Peacemakers something in Montana or somewhere. The paper was drafted by an attorney, so it is legal and would hold up in court, because that's all it says.

3. When the change in leadership occurred, or somewhere in there, I think vances finally realized that paperwork is not only a pain to do, but the extent to which it was done, though originally good-intentioned, was just not right. So, no one keeps notes on people anymore like HCLs did, the pastors don't even do it. With such a bare bones staff as they have now, they seriously don't have time to read the massive amount of paper that used to flow weekly. They ordered a big shred truck to come and shredded all files that contained anything other than the basics: name, birthday, anniversary, emergency contact info, contact info, membership status, and the like. That information was put into a database which is maintained simply to create 1. birthday lists, 2. anniversary lists, 3. membership lists (so they can see who's coming once a year or so - a totally normal thing to do). And, obviously, in the case of an emergency, they can look up whoever each person listed as an emergency contact.

You can choose to believe this or not, but i was on the inside for many years, until recently, and i know all this firsthand.

So, if you were here before carpenter series took over GGs, please believe that you don't have a 'file', other than what i just listed. If you'd like to know what is written in the database about you, email the church. You can send an anonymous email, via the church website, and i'm sure one of the secretaries will look you up and email you exactly what's written. That's not too horrible, is it? (I'm asking seriously, the person who first asked the question on files.) Just do it.

If you started coming after carpenter series took over GGs, then you have a couple other things, which are in a paper file, and I believe it just consists of your CS enrollment form, and the notes the pastor took when you met with them for water baptism, and membership, and then if you became a member, that thing you signed about not going to secular authorities. If you're afraid to talk to the pastors, talk to the secretaries - they're generally not very intimidating, and they can be pretty helpful.

I seriously hope you all can believe this, because if you are living in paranoia that someone is going to read something deep and dark about you, in some secret file at LFF, I want you to be free at least from that paranoia. It's not a fun place to live. I'd hope that you can move a step closer towards healing, even if it's just a tiny step. =-)

God bless...

Anonymous said...

Dear Administrator,
In light of my previous ...sorry so long... comment - do you think it's fair to have one of your 'recommended reading' posts end on a currently untrue note?

I can understand having a page that talks about the dumb things LFF used to do (filing personal dirt), but to say that it is still current (false) and it still happens (false) and that people enter it all electronically every Saturday now (false) shows, I think, a lack of ... I don't know ... truthfulness/integrity/propriety of the information on this blog?

It's just my opinion. I understand why you have it there, to some extent, but can you at least update it? I mean, the post was written as if that person was vacuuming and found the files just last year...I'll bet it was quite a while ago, though.

I'm not trying to criticize, just offering my thoughts.

God bless...

Anonymous said...

To the 7/21/07 11:31 pm poster... Thank you. You said what I had suspected to be true. I was feeling very burdened for those wanting their files, knowing they were no longer of threat to them. I too remember the shredding truck coming in as my department gave bags full of personal information to be demolished.

Anonymous said...

For the poet - Your work is beautiful. I just found this site tonight. I have been gone for nearly 15 years and your work drew me in.

I see so much pain in so many lives here. I have lived that pain.

On the one hand, I would like to say that the pain does lessen with time. LFF has in many ways become a distant memory to me. Do you know that I could not even remember the name of the church? Something made me think of it and I had to find a list of Pullman churches on the internet in order to come up with the name. I hope that holding on to this knowledge will help some others here.

But after reading for quite a while, I feel a strong sense that I need to search out God and deal with some issues that still haunt me to this day. They are holding me back from the depth of relationship with my Heavenly Father that I know I need, deserve, and want.

So I say "thank you" to those of you who started, maintain, and contribute to this site. There is a wonderful ministry here that helps many, including me.

Anonymous said...

I can only assume we are getting past our collective days at LFF since there is so little happening here anymore...

Anonymous said...

does anyone else have those days where you really wish you had some HCL's to go vent to and get advise from?

Today's one of those days where the spouse and I had a spat and we could really use some third party perspective.

The free counseling was nice at times.

Anonymous said...

Wow, that was a really good post. That is so close to how I feel as a kid born and raised in LFF. I am learning now how to feel for the first time since I was 8. It is a bitch of a process. But this I do know, my children will never have to compete with any church for mine and my husband's attention. Too bad that we cant protect the current children of LFF from their parents.

Anonymous said...

You white people are idiots. You are hurt because of the hubris of another white person. But if you weren't white then you would be okay because people who aren't white hurt less. So get over your pain, it only exists because you are white. Maybe you all should get a tan or something then your pain would go away because you won't be so white and thus you won't be so hurt. I am a philosophy expert so I understand the validity of my claims. The more tan you are, the less you will hurt. It's true, melanin and the pains of life are inversely correlated. More melanin = less pain. Fact of life. Get tan and get to feeling better. Why do you think there are tanning booths in every town? Because people hurt in every town. But look at that orange chick. She faked and baked and now she as happy as skin cancer. Not a care in the world, dark and happy. So rid yourself of whiteness and you will rid yourself of pain. I just got a tan this weekend and a tan person like myself is no longer worried about the stupidity that is LFF. I go to Costco and Safeway and I am like, "Hey guys, here is some more info about me for your file." When people try and steal my identity i am like, "Here is my mother's maiden name too, it's all yours buddy, check out my nice tan." I don't even care. I repent of gambling like every day and then I play some blackjack and hit the tanning salon. Boy am I happy. I quit my job like a year ago and I lost my house and my car and my wife but luckily, I have just enough in the bank to keep my tanning package so who cares man. SPF zero is my motto. Bring on the UV it darkens my skin and erases my cares.

Anonymous said...

That's actually funny! Thanks!

Anonymous said...

Carl Green again and I love the fact I struck a cord in the lives of so many of you former LFF sheep.

I written before and have said I am unsure of all that has taken place at LFF since I left and not sure about all the pain you feel and for the most part I feel sorry for many of you.

To Mr Anonymous next to last comment you are very right, if your ignorant but had a tan that was everlasting you might see how trivial some of the complaints made on this blog are. I am calling you out as a whining, crying little boy who cant handle the pain or whatever you felt at LFF an if you had an year round tan you may be able to see their are more difficult things in life to deal with than "can I get my file back" from LFF. Remember I was making fun of all those out wanting thier file back from LFF.

Your white, I'm Black and Asain big deal. Since you have a problem reading between the lines let me spell it out for you more clearly. People of color go through adversity day to day in America for no other reason than the color of thier skin yet many, not all, have learned how to deal with it, move on and thrive. My experience and just mine is some but not all but many on this blog who are white have a difficult time moving on and letting go. I make that assumption and it is an assumption based on the comment #2 in this blog. Original message is about a former member not able to feel anything anymore and apathy has crept into thier life. Writer #2 "this does not relate to above post, can I get my file back." Sorry orginal writer that you feel nothing anymore but gosh darn I need my file. The orginal writer pours thier heart out about apathy in life yet and #2 writers answer, can I get my file back.

Maybe I should have said writer #2, let it go but then we would not get to exchange these comments.

From what I can see many people seem to have moved on since this BLog is has not had any new posts for some time. I like the blog because It has helped me get in contact with old LFF friends.

If you know who I am or knew me at LFF you would know I am no militant but like to point out the differences in culture between people and joke about it. No harm ment my white skinned friends.

I am a sarcastic *** from time to time and I must admit I enjoy getting under the skin of people from time to time. The government pays me good money to that from time to time.

If I really hurt your feelings in any way tell email me and tell me how you really feel. Verdemachine@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

I wish I had had this when I was at LFF:

http://www.cultwatch.com/SuperApostleDetector.html?x=62&y=25

Anonymous said...

I just recently started attending LFF and as of yesterday am begining to worry. I'm now obligated to spend 12+ hours outside of school doing church activities. I'm being pushed into taking the class that all new "members" take. They wanted to take a picture of me for this class but thus far I have avoided it. they also asked for an emergency contact when they tried to get me to sign up for the class (for what reason I'll never know). The thing that really bothers me though is that this weekend was the big college retreat, big weekend. For the retreat Pastor Joe had a spreadsheat of all the new peoples names and next to each name was a prophecy that he supposedly got from God for them... it seems a little odd to me! I now am thinking I want to stop going to this church but I'm afraid to stop going because I live with people who are very involved in it.

Anonymous said...

Please, take a warning from what you read on this blog and be more afraid for the damage that you can do to your future and your faith than afraid for the strain that your lack of joining LFF will do for your living arrangement. It's a hassle to find a different place to live and different roommates, but if it comes to that, it's easier than dealing with the aftermath of LFF manipulations.

Anonymous said...

Ask yourself this question. 'If I left LFF would my roommates treat me differently?"
If the answer is yes, that should be a huge red flag to you.
Think about it.

Anonymous said...

LFF is historically a performance-oriented church. The message of saved by grace is there but once saved, you are pressured to do stuff to be a "good Christian" and the grace gets lost in the works & legalism. It's up to you, but there are several good churches (NOT LFF) in the Pullman-Moscow area where you can have good fellowship and live a true, grace-filled, healthy Christian life.

Anonymous said...

http://wsu.facebook.com/profile.php?id=27213088

Nothing changes. Looking at this past friends facebook I see that the exact same games, speeches (NOT SERMONS IMO) same ol same ol.

I guess if the system works for them and the church body fluctuates so much then hey why now keep doing the same thing year after year? Same jokes same likes same manipulations

Anonymous said...

You know, I can honestly say I never had much use for that guy while I was there. I won't go into specifics because it isn't useful and some people would rather be a smart ass than improve.
But I will say that I don't see anything particularly repugnant about that facebook profile. Am I missing something? Sounds like an average guy.
The further I get from all that, LFF and the games, the more I realize that some people need places like LFF. They finally have somewhere that they fit in and feel like they are actually making a difference.
Christians in general leave me unimpressed these days. They would rather talk about how many people are coming to Sunday service or youth group than deal with the countless social injustices in the world.
I am convinced that when Jesus said 'Come to me all you who labor' he didn't care whether a person was gay or straight, black or white, a drunk or sober, or even if they went to LFF or not. He just wanted people who labored.
Yes, I went to LFF and I know that they are too busy trying to pay for a building they inherited from a decadent generation of predecessors to help 'they that labor,' too busy going to cliche conferences having there 'passion renewed' to have time for the poor and widowed, and too busy patting themselves on the back for the things that they do to really actually give a shit, and too busy over-spiritualizing a relationship with christ to give heed to a message that contains webster defined profanity.
I am guilty. God help us all.

Unknown said...

Dude, what the heck? I love my church, and I believe in what we are doing. But if you have something personal to say, go ahead and send me a Facebook message. I wouldn't mind reconnecting with some old friends.

Anonymous said...

12:06

I was referring to the Videos of events at LFF. It's the same games, same words, same jokes etc

Not anything about Adam as a person.

Anonymous said...

belief has never been the issue

Anonymous said...

To the 11:22 poster....FLEE.....I wish I had when I saw ALL of the red flags...it would have saved me from a lot of despair. I still live in the area and see first hand that it is still way too cultish. It will suck you DRY....and will come between you and your college degree.

Anonymous said...

"I love my church and I believe in what we are doing." What really ARE you doing? The community of Pullman has been wondering the answer to that for 30 years.

Anonymous said...

Seriously I don't understand why everyone in this blog feels the need to talk crap about LFF and how they hurt them but then they can't even really say how. By the way, why is it that everyone chooses to remain anonymous? Kind of takes any credibility out of this blog.

Anonymous said...

I think you answered your own question...You don't understand.
Stop coming here if you find it so confusing. The site isn't meant for you.
The anonymity is for reasons that have been discussed at length in the various postings, posting full of specifics you seem to have missed as well.
Move along or pay attention.

Anonymous said...

hey, 9/28/2007 2:39 PM

You are unable to read, or you comment before you read, or you went to a Christian school...

Anonymous said...

Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black isn't it "9/28/07 2:39 pm"? If you're so into sharing identities, why'd you comment as anonymous? Sounds like you need to do some back reading to find the answers to your questions. By the way, to anyone who is still an LFF supporter (ADAM) but reads this blog, have you considered WHY you read this blog if it is so offensive to you? Perhaps you have some doubts and are looking for confirmation????

Anonymous said...

I think LFFers read this blog so that they can use it against their current recruits. It's just like in church where they would say "some will call us a cult. To those people we just respond with 'people who followed Jesus were a cult'" For any opposition that we have towards that church, they have a rebuttal in their back pockets. The saddest thing about that is that everyone just accepts everything the "leadership" says as being truth.

The kind of people that get sucked into LFF are the kind of people who are looking for acceptance and belonging, are looking for mentors. All of us were once sucked in. The nature of that cult only works on the basis that the congregation is constantly fluctuating. They need us free thinkers to get the hell out of there because the leaders can't have us taking off the rose colored glasses of the newest members. That would ruin them.

Lff is used to people leaving, but in their twisted manipulated little minds they are made to believe that we are in sin for leaving. They are made to believe that ONLY they will go to heaven. They are made to be robots.

I can only feel sorry for people like Adam who had such a bright future, who aspired to work for Fox Sports in Seattle, who because of manipulation settled for staying in pullman, at a church what IS abusive, who gave up so much to be a clone.

I know he won't ever read Twisted Scriptures but I wish he would. I wish everyone in that church would. Pastor Kari has read it and has admitted that what they are doing is wrong.

But alas there is good that comes out of that place. People are getting saved. People are changing their lives. If only they would teach that you do not have to be slaves to your church and your leadership to be a child of God. You will not lose your salvation and will not be possessed by demons once you are saved. If only.... If only....

I miss people there, terribly. But mostly because I miss the sense of belonging, the sense of popularity. But that was all lost the second a so-called sin of ours was made public by big-mouthed home care leaders.

You will never be good enough as long as you are there. You will never know God for yourselves as long as you are there.

LFF just makes me so sad. The pocket books of the pastors keep getting fatter and fatter and the congregation keeps getting blinder and blinder. It's just so sad

CAWL

Anonymous said...

leave adam alone. he is absolutely harmless.

Unknown said...

"Harmless" is debatable. I am curious though as to why I am suddenly a controversial character on this web site.

You have my Facebook info - please send me a message. :-)

Unknown said...

seriously people! Do you all have nothing better to do than to talk shit about others?

This blog was good at first, it helped people sort out the confusion and hurt that came with leaving LFF. But now, it's nothing more than a than a childish game.

If only the members here would stop thinking about themselves and remember why this blog was created, and that was to warn others and to try and save our friends who are still caught up in LFF.

You all are just feeding fuel to their fire. To their argument that we are all in sin and rebellion for leaving.

Grow up! Get over yourselves and stop talking shit about people just for the hell of it. Swallow the garbage of your mouths and quit spewing it all over!

Anonymous said...

Kristin, I find that VERY ironic coming from you...good to see you are all grown up now.

Anonymous said...

True Christianity right there. Thanks for reaffirming that all you fools at LFF are hypocrites.

Unknown said...

You who seeks to tear me down every chance you get. You who has no balls to tell me who you are you are the worst example of Christianity. I seriously hope that you don't have children, what a poor example of how to treat people just because they disagree with you. Pathetic!

Anonymous said...

I agree with the "harmless" point of view of the previous poster. Harmless to readers of this blog who have discovered the truth. Leave the guy alone, you don't have to listen to the lies anymore, he can't do anything but remind you of the confusion of your past.

And for whoever gave up their dream of working at FOX Sports, I feel your pain. You are one of MANY, MANY people who gave up their dreams for the church's ideals. I gave up my dream of being a surgeon. I couldn't fit all the schooling in to the CCF schedule. Take heart though, it's not too late.

Anonymous said...

Kristin,
First of all I wasn't the one who criticized Adam. I never knew the guy. Second of all, I simply said I found it ironic that you are correcting people for tearing him down when I have read comments from you long ago on this blog where you did the very same thing to him and others. You have been extremely vocal on this blog in the past in some negative ways so I just assumed that you had grown up. Judging by your reaction, I struck a cord. THAT does not make me a bad example or a bad Christian, I just call it like I see it - I believe Jesus did the same thing.

P.S. You don't have to come here anymore either if it bothers you so much.

Unknown said...

See that's where you are wrong. The only time I have ever mentioned Adam on this blog before today was on the "Missing Link" thread when he was first attacked. I just like today, stuck up for him because he is my friend.

Yes I have been vocal on this blog, but today was the first time in months that I even opened this website. It's the same shit just a different day.

Those of us who have the balls to not hide our identity are ripped apart. But that's okay because none of you know me or have any affect on me what-so-ever.


good riddens....again

Anonymous said...

Adam, your a tool. You spend hours reading this blog then contribute to the clutter in the comments. Your a wast of space. Go play with your CCF. Your obsessed, what would Joe F think about the copious amounts of time you spend here. Sounds to me like you quit your goals, lost your focus, and took the easy road. Now you are used by "god" to strip young innocent people of their goals and dreams, and lock them into submission with manipulation, much like you are. Look at yourself in the mirror filth, you ought to tie a millstone around your neck and throw yourself into the sea. You peddle Christ, every dollar earned fattens the leadership of Living Faith Fellowship and pays for that hideous building. There are people one this earth that live outside in the bitter cold, the burning sun, and the poring rain. They fight a losing battle against hunger, viruses and disease. There you sit with your fat cat leaders doing nothing but paying for that obese building. You are a fair weather Christian. You listen to the words of Joe, just words, his actions reach no further than the sound of his voice. Go nowhere, do nothing, help on one, cover your eyes and ears to the real needy, stay in Pullman grow old and die a tool.

Anonymous said...

You guys are all so mean. We all followed the same people and did the same stuff why are you so hard on each other? Also, stop sounding so self righteous. Jesus wasn't arrogant. In His eyes you are all the same. So stop.

Stacey Hawley

Anonymous said...

I agree with Stacy. Adam opened himself up to SOME jabbing by putting his identity here but COME ON PEOPLE!! Do you realize you are no worse than what you accuse him of in your JUST PLAIN MEAN rant against him???? You were in the same place he was in once, felt called by God to be there. This blog has gotten ridiculous. I've been dragged down to it's level a few times, but NO MORE. Get on with your lives folks, healing does not begin and end with tearing down the likes of Adam. Adam, if you are reading this, I am so sorry for the comments written two posts prior by someone who was (I can only hope) drunk and didn't really mean it. If you feel called to be there, then you should stay there. For your own sake, I do hope you stop reading this blog. I personally vow to never come here again, it is doing nothing for my present walk with Christ. It's time for me to leave the past behind...for good!!!

Anonymous said...

Amen to that!

Anonymous said...

To Adam:

I don't know you and I don't know your original reason for visiting this blog, but may I make a suggestion? Read this blog with a desire to really understand and empathize with those who were hurt by LFF. If you feel called to be at LFF, then that is where you should be. However, instead of trying to defend LFF, why don't you step back, accept that LFF caused a lot of hurt, and then see what you can do to keep these hurts from continuing to happen? I have not attended LFF under Phil and Kari's leadership, but was there for a long time while Karl and Sherri were at the helm. As I look back, I can see that, while some of their desires for godliness in peoples' lives were sincere, they had a philosophy of "the end justifies the means", and I think that is where much of the hurt came in. Bullying and manipulation were widely used to get members to do the right thing - it was expedient and had much more immediate results over prayer and leaving things up to God. The end result, however, has been hugely damaging.

I join with others who have expressed sorrow over the way you have been attacked in some of the comments, and please understand that just because one person expresses something vicious here doesn't mean that we all agree with it.

As for writing under the "Anonymous" label, I think it helps to keep us from bringing up previous memories, images, or judgments associated with a name, and, hopefully, to hear the words.

Unknown said...

This is Adam, and I'd like to clarify some things:

All this started not with me posting anything to the comments, but with someone else linking to my personal Facebook profile and saying some less than flattering things about it. (9/26/2007 9:46 PM)

I am not a regular reader of this blog. But Feedburner and Technorati do a good job of notifying me whenever my church is mentioned in the blogosphere.

Also, in the past couple of days there has been a flurry of inflammatory comments posted to the CCF website with links to this blog and degrading comments about CCF, Pastor Joe, and others. In my opinion, if we can all agree to not vandalize each other's websites, everyone will be in a much more happy place.

As a current LFFer, I'm not here to pick a fight or tell anyone they are wrong. However, I would be interested in talking things out with anyone who would like to take the time, either by email, Facebook, phone, or in person. I believe in my church, but I won't stand up and tell other people that their experiences were wrong or unjustified. Everyone has their own story to tell, and we all get to deal with things in our own way. I choose to support my church, and I am okay if you don't feel the same way.

And finally, I admire the past blog administration of the Dread Pirate Roberts. He moderated this site with a lot of class, and kept the focus on ministering to people's pain, rather than lashing out at the church. It seems like a lot more healing went on during those few months than in the time before and after. Just an observation.

Anonymous said...

Excerpt from a September 2005 post:

"As the administrators of this site we realize that as people comment on here, they will be writing from different stages of the healing process. Therefore, the comments are the views of their author and not necessarily the views of those maintaining this blog. Many of the comments are in fact the views of the hosts, but we can not be responsible for what is said by the readers. We in no way wish to censor the views of anyone who visits here. We welcome and respect all opinions. In rare circumstances, if a comment is deemed vulgar or has outbound links to inappropriate material, it will be removed. We welcome a healthy exchange of thoughts and opinions on this site. This is something that was not possible at LFF and we, in no way, wish to replicate that environment on our site."

The bottom line is that we are all unique, each with our own struggle.

We will continue to let individuals sort out their issues as individuals.

Anonymous said...

http://campuschristianfellowship.com/login

you must request an account to view the website?

wow. that's not creepy. (sarcasm)

Unknown said...

Nope.
You must request an account to EDIT the website. All the content is open for the world to see. Including all video and audio and pictures. Nothing to hide here.

Anonymous said...

Also, I love how this blog is #3 when you search "living faith fellowship" in google.

It's not even close to the top when you type "campus christian fellowship". But with luck, and Adam's help with the discussions and mentions of CCF and campus christian fellowship, we can get higher on that search as well. The impressionable young college students they focus on deserve to know the truth from BOTH perspectives and make an informed decision.

Anonymous said...

Brandon Heath
I'm Not Who I Was Lyrics

I wish you could see me now
I wish I could show you how
I'm not who I was
I used to be mad at you
A little on the hurt side too
But I'm not who I was

I found my way around
To forgiving you
Some time ago
But I never got to tell you so

I found us in a photograph
I saw me and I had to laugh
You know, I'm not who I was
You were there, you were right above me
And I wonder if you ever loved me
Just for who I was

When the pain came back again
Like a bitter friend
It was all that I could do
To keep myself from blaming you

I reckon it's a funny thing
I figured out I can sing
Now I'm not who I was
I write about love and such
Maybe 'cause I want it so much
I'm not who I was

I was thinking maybe I
I should let you know
I am not the same
But I never did forget your name
Hello

Well the thing I find most amazing
In amazing grace
Is the chance to give it out
Maybe that's what love is all about

I wish you could see me now
I wish I could show you how
I'm not who I was

Anonymous said...

To the person who posted up a little that said things were the same.. I mean literally THE SAME!! I can't believe it!! The other day I was bored and against my better judgment I looked up the CCF website and saw that for big weekend they did EXACTLY the same dance the had done in 95 or 96!!! I mean exactly!! It was when Joe and Chris B. and Chris E. and Brady? were all in it. They might have done it later with CJ. It was you can't go around the cross!! The outfits were the same, everything!!!!!!! It creeped me out. Don't they have any talented people that might be able to think of something new. Also, at least Chris E. could dance, things guys were embarrassing!!!!!!!!! Maybe in my day the guys were bad too. I always thought those were so great!! But those dances were choreographed by Misty and Chris and other real dancers!!!!! I wonder if god is moving so much why can't the team thinkof fresh stuff. Or stop all the hype. Without talent it looks very cheesy.

Anonymous said...

What after all that bashing no one is Christian enough to keep talking?

Anonymous said...

to 10/18: what are you talking about?

Anonymous said...

Adam, thanks for the vote of confidence! I haven't been back for a few months because it really seems to have quieted down. I only hope people are finding the healing they need. I still pray for all of us (either in or out of LFF). Blessings to you all!
DPR!!!!

Anonymous said...

to 10/03/2007 6:52 PM...who cares?

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Administrator who do you think you are?
Teh person who was rude to my post deserved everything I said and so do you. I should be able to have opinions and mine are valid. I thought it was crappy that they used the same dance. LAme. I bet that person who said who cares is one of the reasons I am in counseling right now. Oh yes I know you will say I chose. I chose to be belittled for ten years to be your friends when most of you were hypocrites. I was awesome and there are only 2 friendships that have held. I am so angry. I want to share but I am constantly put down. Wow you are the same as LFF!! You guys are awesome.

Innocence Destroyed said...

Feel free to comment without using profanity.

As posted earlier in this comment thread:

Excerpt from a September 2005 post:

"As the administrators of this site we realize that as people comment on here, they will be writing from different stages of the healing process. Therefore, the comments are the views of their author and not necessarily the views of those maintaining this blog. Many of the comments are in fact the views of the hosts, but we can not be responsible for what is said by the readers. We in no way wish to censor the views of anyone who visits here. We welcome and respect all opinions. In rare circumstances, if a comment is deemed vulgar or has outbound links to inappropriate material, it will be removed. We welcome a healthy exchange of thoughts and opinions on this site. This is something that was not possible at LFF and we, in no way, wish to replicate that environment on our site."

The bottom line is that we are all unique, each with our own struggle.

We will continue to let individuals sort out their issues as individuals.

Anonymous said...

to 10/28/2007 1:53 PM
“You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience by which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, 'I lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along.” -Elizabeth Roosevelt.

Anonymous said...

For the record, they do come up w/ new material. What's the big deal if they want to bring up an oldie but a goodie? My husband was in the very first dance they did. We don't go to CCF anymore, but they did the dance for a transition number the other day. It was funny seeing it again. Maybe it brought back bad memories for you, but other people can look back on the good times they've had too. And who cares if they aren't as good of dancers as "so and so?" I actually find that refreshing as one of the problems I have had with LFF is their focus on everything looking the best. I'm so sad they got rid of the orchestra.

And Stacey, I appreciate your good attitude here. I know you have been extremely hurt in the past, but you have risen above it on this thread. Love ya, girl!

Open Minded said...

Ok so I want to respond to the comment on "LFF keeping secret files on people." I have to say I highly doubt that a church would keep tabs on every single person attending it. I mean to keep super secret files on everything that is going on in everyone's lives? Yeah right. That sounds super paranoid to me.

I mean ok even if they did keep records on me, I really wouldn't be worried at all as I have nothing to hide. I mean I guess if you did something horrible in your past it would be a reason to freak out, but I don't think they keep secret files on everyone who goes there, that is just crazy. But whatever lets you sleep at night, I guess is allowed. However I choose not to be as paranoid that everyone is out to get me.

Anonymous said...

"A person of color like myself has learned to take the bumps of life and move on. People of color have had no choice in this matter and have learned it is time to get living while you still have life."

Yeah we should all sing kumbaya after we get off of LFF's plantation.

Anonymous said...

This is not about racism, it's about twisting God's word to hurt people.

Jesus has come, Jesus will save, Jesus will heal, Jesus will make whole.

Let Jesus be your God, not LFF or its leaders.