the end?
The stories, memories and struggles shared on this site are real. These are the tales of hundreds who have suffered through the trap of Living Faith Fellowship in Pullman, Washington.
We will never escape the memories and some wounds will never heal. But many have found life anew, outside the confining walls of judgment, free from the lies of Living Faith.
The comment boards will remain open for discussion, because flashes of pain and anger haunt, and sometimes you simply need the ear of someone who understands.
We pray this site will serve as a beacon to future seekers.
126 comments:
Thanks so much for maintaining this site for so long. I've found it to be tremendously healing, being able to read the comments of others and to write my own. LFF was such a bizarre part of my life - it's difficult to talk about it to those who haven't had a similar experience. It has helped to have this forum. Thank you.
Amen! This is a chapter I have closed in my life. Not something I am at all proud of and possibly something that will haunt me for years to come. Through it all I have learned a great deal about resisting manipulation. It is unfortunate to see such horrendous things were done in the name of God. I still pray every day for those who are blind to the deception. Thank you to whoever started this site, I was truly able to open up and face many of the fears that haunted me. God bless you all.
I can't even explain how much this site has helped me.
Tor year I thought I was the only one who was being lied to, treated poorly and overlooked due to nepotism.
This site has helped me heal, although I may never be able to smile about my time in Pullman
I have read the posts in this blog from time to time. As a former HCL and CCL, I was often torn between the pain I encountered in my own life and pain others felt. Thank you for keeping this open and available for people to heal and move on.
This is a humorous, satirical video that I think will ring true for a lot of people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya84HnPAlnY
I went to LFF for about a year between 1996 and 1997. I threw myself into the church, went through GG's, and joined a home care group. I lived with three other girls from LFF. I have seen many things happen. I am sure there is an interesting file on me! I started dating someone who did not go to the church. By that time, I was starting to get disillusioned with the church. My home care group leaders were encouraging me to talk to them and not to talk to my family. I am close to my family and this did not sit well with me. I was chastised for going to see a friend who had just had a baby and missing the meeting that night. When I stopped going to LFF (I was going to another church), my roommates kicked me out of the apartment. There were many interesting things that I saw living with them though. My one roommate had been dating a guy seriously for a long time and were talking of getting married. The church did not agree with the match and thus in while doing the marriage homework, the church leadership told them they were not suited for each other. They pushed another girl to this guy and they were married not long afterwards due to the prodding of the church. I heard that the roommate is married to someone else now, but I saw the heartache that was created. Many people I see from back then that are still attending the church are just not happy. Another couple I know were pushed together like nothing I have ever seen. The girl had a major obsession with this guy and the church leadership pretty much told him that he had to marry her to keep her from sin.
I personally had no idea that the church kept records of me. I would have never talked to the home care leaders had I of known this as the information I shared was highly personal. Like most of you, I believe that if you ask forgiveness, it is forgiven and ERASED. You might live with consequences from the action, but in God's eyes, all is forgiven.
I have seen so many people who went from being super involved in this church to going off the deep end in alcohol to try to forget. I was one of them. Unfortunately, I was pushed into a bad situation when I had to find a new place to live after getting kicked out. I have forgiven the people who have hurt me at LFF, but the result of my time there still has an effect on my life. At least I no longer have panic attacks when I see my old roommates.
I attended LFF in the 1980s as a student. I did not buy into some the goofy stuff because I had a solid upbringing that the Bible was the ultimate authority. So when I heard we should consider tithing more than 10%, I ignored it.
When I saw the leader worship, I ignored it.
What I did get, was the blessings of true repentance, true friends and a great wife.
In remembering the goofy stuff, remember the blessings received also. God's word is true and Jesus really loves and saves us. Forgive those who hurt you.
Wow. Just forgive ten years of torture and brainwahsing. Giving your whole self to something that you totally believed in and found out later wasn't what you thought. I am so happy for you that you have never experienced true heartbreak. My life was torn out from under me. I believed with all my heart that I would be there forever. I don't know that I worshiped the leadership I TRUSTED them. I loved and worshiped Jesus. I was all about Him. I just trusted that they were leading me in the way and being good shepherds. I'm glad for you that you were protected. but don't minimize my pain. It has been a long hard 5 years since I left and I know many people who also are hurting. I am beginning to not hate people but it will take time. Just like when any deep relationship ends. Don't be so contrite!!!!
Stacey Hawley
Contrite : feeling or showing sorrow and remorse for a sin or shortcoming
Maybe the reason it seems hard for me to forgive others is that I do not fully believe that I am a forgiven person. If I could fully accept the truth that I am forgiven and do not have to live in guilt or shame, I would really be free. My freedom would allow me to forgive others seventy times seven times. By not forgiving, I chain myself to a desire to get even, thereby losing my freedom.
- Henri Nouwen
The Road to Daybreak
Carryin' a millstone malaise
It's been pulling down your gaze
You pound the pavement
It don't give or care
This weight ain't yours to bear
Why you holdin' grudges in old jars?
Why you wanna show off all your scars?
What's it gonna take to lay a few burdens down?
It's a beautiful sound
When they all fall
Like a million raindrops
Falling from a blue sky
Kissing your cares goodbye
They all fall
Like a million pieces
A ticker tape parade high
And now you're free to fly
When that muffled sigh
Says you're barely getting by
Cut your burdens loose and just simplify
Simplify
This is not your floor
You're going higher than before
Drop the weight now
Wait for the lookout guide
Look outside
As they all fall
Like a million raindrops
Falling from a blue sky
Kissing your cares goodbye
They all fall
Like a million pieces
A ticker tape parade high
Now you're free to fly
You've gotta lay that burden down
You're gonna lay that burden down
It's time to leave your burdens in a pyre
Set a bonfire
'Cause when you lay your burdens down
When you lay your burdens down
When you drop them burdens
What a free-fall
What a thrill
Bury them all
In a landfill
Newsboys
Million Pieces
I am so glad that all you got out of all I said and all the pain I have experienced. You are awesome. You are for sure an LFFer. Way to be sensitive!!!!! Wow. I will be sure next time I am emotional I will have a dictionary. Thanks!!!!!
Your first sentence seems to be missing something.
I used to think the way that Christians treated each other was a joke. Now it makes me want to puke.
If you have nothing better to do than rip on grammar, you have a very sad life.
Eat your snickers bar in front of others. Really enjoy it in front of others. Even pretend like you enjoy it in front of others. That way they will want one too.
My snickers bar is sooo great!! It's like none you've ever had. None of the other snickers bars you've ever eaten will compare. You never really ate snickers bars before now.
My snickers bar will change your life. You will never be the same. People come from all over to eat these snickers bars. You must eat them. They are a gift from God. Eating them is a command from God. In this way they are a Gift AND a command.
Since I am feeding you snickers bars you need to give me 23 and 1/3 of everything you produce. This is also a gift and a command. If this is too much I will settle for 10 percent.
You need to convince others to eat these Snickers bars so they don't go to hell.
If they don't like you telling them what to eat it is because the cross offends.
For those that do eat the snickers bars, write down the bad things they have previously so we can put this it into a filing cabinet.
Oh no. I am allergic to peanuts and they are still pushing this in my face. I want what they have and am asking if it can be any kind of candy cuz if I eat snickers my throat will swell shut and I will die. They don't care. They say god watns me to eat snickers NO MATTER WHAT!! After trying to see if they see any other way, I leave. I need to be where people love me even if I can't eat Snickers.
grammar police: Please read for the heart of what I tried to say. I know the tenses are off.
i wrote the first snickers post not the second. i am not allergice to peanuts or snickers but hate being forced to eat either.
I visited there recently and must've been told I was "awesome" half a dozen times. Nothing has really changed there. They don't really want to know you, they just want to breeze by, tell you how much they "love" you and move on to new blood. You'd think I'd learn not to go back. I've moved on but it's taken a long time and every time I visit I feel like I regress a little. I was so disappointed by the lack of genuine care there. It's just a bunch of shiny happy faces but you can't see very deep. I guess I'm mostly disappointd for the people still there for they have no idea what's out there. They could be experiencing true freedom in Christ but there they sit, full of themselves in all their "awesomeness".
So, my question goes out to those of you who remain in the Pullman/Moscow area and those of you that have returned to that area.
I may be moving back to Pullman and would like to know how you do it? Do you run into people from LFF? Are they pleasant or are they rude to you? Do they bad mouth you? It is a small community so I am concerned about it.
Thanks!
A former LFFer who may be a Pullmanite again.
Dear former LFFer who may be returning to Pullman,
I do have contact with LFFers - on almost a daily basis. For the most part, the contacts are pleasant and sometimes I even enjoy cathing up with old/past friends on how they're doing. I don't know if I'm being bad-mouthed. I don't think I am - I'm just not that interesting to talk about. : ) I don't particularly care for having to see the building on my drives across town every day, but we've built a new life with new friends and the sight of the old place bothers me less and less. Is it a job opportunity that may be bringing you back to Pullman? I think you could have a positive future here without it being spoiled by LFF. Blessings on your plans!
It is for a job that I may be returning to the area. I will be there this week to interview and to check things out. It is odd to return to Pullman after all this time. Thanks for sharing your experiences in Pullman. It helps a lot.
To the last comment on 7-12...if you need a place to stay you are more than welcome at our home. We are ex-Leffers and happily reside in the lovely town of Moscow. our ph.no. is 208-310-6140...best wishes for a great job interview..
To the person that offered their home to me - Thank you! It is much appreciated. It doesn't look like a return to Pullman is in my future though. That is for the best as I am not a fan of snow and I know they get plenty in the winter and with all those hills, I would need a personal driver to get me around. I don't think that would have been in my budget!
Thanks again!
YIKES! Sarah Palin went to LFF!!!
Discuss....
Yikes, we all went to LFF and we are all a whole lot smarter because we saw the 'light' and left. So what does that say about her? She went to a 'freakin' Bible study a few times, at least she was wise enough NOT to drink the entire pitcher of Kool-aid like most of us EX-Leffers. She would make a BRILLIANT V.P.
Amen to that!
Is this true? When did Sarah Palin attend WSU and what year(s) did she attend LFF?
If she really did, again it proves that there is life outside LFF
Sarah Palin did not attend WSU - she lived in Idaho and probably commuted to LFF... though she might have attended nearby UI in Moscow
Sarah went to the U. of I. and she didn't 'attend' LFF...she merely visited Nancy B's Bible study a few times. She was obviously 'brighter' than most of us as she didn't get sucked in.
I seriously hope that the 10/15 1:04pm blogger was joking when they said she would make a "brilliant VP". Ugh. That woman makes me ill.
Sarah Palin is an amazing 'self made' woman......she will be a GREAT V.P. She was wise enough to flee from Living F. She will get GOOD things done for the U.S.A. At least with her and McCain at the helm we won't have a 'socialist" govn't.
And please tell me what is so wrong with a socialist government? Iceland is about as socialistic as you can get and they are the happiest people on earth! What is so wrong about caring for your fellow man? Socialism does not equal communism. Hard work still leads to more money, and laziness will result in less money and less luxuries. But should anyone have to worry about having enough food to eat or dying of treatable disease? Someone please tell me what is so wrong with socialism.
iceland is barely coming off of a food shortage and is facing a depression type economy far worse than that we face in the US. I think a more correct statement would be, "they WERE the happiest country on eath"
This blog should be shut down, it's turning into a whine fest for other topics. If a new LFF-er were to visit now to find answers, they'd probably be turned off to Christianity all together. If you want to bitch and moan about politics, your bad hair day, or life in general, go get your own blog, they're free.
No need to be so harsh and crabby.
Who is Nancy B? I hope Sarah Palin runs for President in 2012, although my first choice is Bobby Jindal. It's a good thing that Palin didn't get sucked into the LFF cult. We never would have heard of this great American.
So even after leaving LFF you can be a die hard Republican?!?
Sincere Christ followers are affiliated with both the Republican and Democratic party (and others as well). It has nothing to do with an LFF background.
to 11/06/2008 4:26 PM
I hope you don't really think that someone posting about politics will prevent Jesus from connecting to the masses. jeez mahweez.
There is a bumper sticker that says:
"I am a liberal Christian. I can think and pray at the same time." :) I'm no longer a Christian but I like this bumper sticker.
You're calling me "harsh and crabby" because I think people are being mean and judgmental on this blog? Now that's what I call irony.
It seems that you're the one being 'mean and judgemental'. Why so cranky?
I hope that this site continues to stay active and online. Although I never attended Living Faith Fellowship, I have friends and relatives who were very damaged by the practices of both the present and previous pastors. It takes great courage to leave such a group, and even greater courage to document what happened as a warning to others. Whether activity on the site is high or low, it is an important witness that needs to remain accessible. Thank you for your great courage in making this space possible!
This video pretty much sums up my experience at LFF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEjJGae0vcc
I thank those that created this site and all the posts and comments. LFF was such a conflicting place for me. I'm glad I was able to get out before too much damage was done. I always felt in my heart some of the things they were asking of me and telling me weren't the true love and compassion of God. What a sad place.
I went to LFF for almost 2 years. There was some funky stuff going on, but the problem with a site like this is that a lot of times it doesn't help do anything except feed the bitterness. I really had a hard time when I left LFF because all I could talk about when I talked about God was how I felt I had gotten screwed over by LFF, and all the while my relationship with the Lord suffered. The reason is that bitterness is like drinking poison and hoping someone else falls over dead. Besides, if the biblical model for authority is david, we have to understand that sometimes God puts us in bad situations to see how we'll react. And even when David could have criticized or killed Saul, he didn't. In fact, he rebuked those who did criticized him and wanted to take vengeance by saying basically, "How dare you even think about destroying God's annointed?" David was blessed by his reactions to authority. For myself, it wasn't until I let go of my bitterness that I was truly back in right-relationship with God. Letting go had nothing to do with what I said to others about the church, but about what I didn't say because at the end of the day, LFF, like all churches, is a part of the body of Christ, and I realized it wasn't a good idea to criticise the bride of Christ, no matter what it had done.
"Sometimes we have to 'step over' our anger, our jealousy, or our feelings of rejection and move on. The temptation is to get stuck in our negative emotions, poking around in them as if we still belong there. Then we become the 'offended one', the 'forgotten one, or the 'discarded one'. Yes, we can get attached to these negative identities and even take morbid pleasure in them. It might be good to have a look at these dark feelings and explore where they come from, but there comes a moment to step over them, leave them behind and travel on."
- Henri Nouwen
I whole heartedly agree with the last comment. It is all too easy to become negative and allow the past to change who you are. I also have been very thankful for this blog. It has helped my wife understand the spiritual and emotional abuse that she was subjected to at Living Faith. Without this blog she would not have had the understanding to deal with the pain. We are now both free from the abuses of our past. Hallelujah!
I must say I disagree with the comment earlier today that said "I realized it wasn't a good idea to criticise the bride of Christ" Please keep in mind that without this blog many people could have gone through life thinking they were the only one or thinking that the abuse was their fault. This is a common reaction by victims and it simply hurts them even more.
I personally was sexually abused as a child at a different church. There was no choice but to "criticize the bride of Christ." All to often churches use this scripture to avoid confrontation and exposure of wrongdoings. That is why I am thankful for the ministry this blog has given to the victims of Living Faith Fellowship and pray that it helps others just as much as it has helped my wife and my family. God bless you.
I understand what you're saying. I agree that at some points, we have to look at the church and point out blemishes occasionally. However, I also personally know the men that created this "ministry". When last I saw them, they were tanked drunk in a bar in Pullman. For all the Christian-ese I've seen on this site coming from the original bloggers, I've seen the spiritual fruit of their lives, so it's hard for me to say that this is a "ministry," any more than saying alcohol being served at an AA meeting is helping alcoholics.
I understand the need for anonymous venting and stories of shared abuses. The bible talks about healing coming from repentance before men. It's sometimes difficult to connect with God when we've been hurt by his church, but at the end of the day, when we stand before the throne of God on judgement day, saying that this church or that church or this person or that made us this way isn't going to change what He has to say to us about our lives.
True restoration in our lives doesn't come from anonymous venting on an internet blog, it comes from forgiveness and subsequent restoration from Christ Jesus. However, I'm glad that something made people feel better about their time at LFF. I do really know how it feels, I just took a different path to restoration.
Haha! Sometimes God uses an ass to do his work.
Maybe you just proved that point.
I wonder if the spiritual fruit of their lives includes judging people?
1 Corintians 5:11-13 "But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he should be an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler (partier), or a drunkard, or a swindler-not to even eat with such a one. for what have I to do with judgeing outsiders? do you not judge those inside the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves."
That's Paul talking, not me. The bible clearly talks about not judging those outside the church, not those inside it. The bottom line is that when a brother and sister fall from God, it's the job of any good friend to talk with them about it. It's accountability more than anything. Judgement and accountability are different from condemnation. You people want to take touchy feely parts of grace without taking into account justice. Christ says,"If you love me, obey my commands." I'm all for debate and all that, but whether you like it or not, there is a righteous standard that Christians are called to live by. read this next verse.
Luke 14:28-30 "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost, to see if he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him saying, 'This man was not able to finish.'"
Christians have no right to condemn anyone, but they have a right to chastize their own brothers and sisters. What do you think a pastor does? He leads a church, does his best to protect it when winds of doctrine blow, and sometimes has to correct the followers that God has placed in his midst.
That said, all people are flawed, but when you're not willing to become accountable to anyone but yourself, your walk with God can't prevail. I'm sorry if that is offensive to you, but it's the truth.
Sadly, sometimes in our zeal people can take it too far where it is condemnation. That's what I think LFF could improve upon. I felt very condemnded when I was there. I would've responded to criticism or correction, but condemnation is basically saying, "You're not worth the time!"
Thanks for the scripture. I had forgotten all about the Bible.
Your thoughtful words have brought me full circle.
I think I am going to start going to church again.
You must have listened to the Lord in your quiet time this morning.
Instead of criticizing people for criticizing, (which in and of itself should leave you pining disparately for a way to wash that egg off your face) lets talk about a truth or untruth you have found cleverly hidden amongst these digital pages.
Please be respectful of feeling, and remember that pain is relative.
what were u doing in a bar?
hahaha! Were you evangelizing in the bar?
Never the less, I think that the thing that hurt me the most was thinking about how many times I had defended them against the "persecution" in the MP Daily News.
I'm still a little embarrassed when I think about how naive I was.
-happy in pullman
cult members aren't allowed in the bar. it's in the handbook.
I didn't get that handbook. I thought cult members could go in the bar but just not drink booze. anyone want to elaborate?
I used to attend LFF for a few years, wow what a brutal place to be!! such a weird church! I experienced pain and hurt like everyone else..I now attend Celebrate Recovery..the Lord has used this ministry to help heal all the hurts and pain I've experienced in life, including my time at LFF. I am now healing and a much healthier person. This ministry provides a safe, non-judmental, healing evironment to help grow and heal as a Christian, all very biblical and doctrinaly sound! I would strongly encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ who've experienced such hurt and pain from LFF to look into the celebrate recovery ministry..God has used this to truly change my life! Check out their website..they probaly have a small group near you! www.celebraterecovery.com. May the Lord Richly Bless You!!
I wanted to write and let you know how brave you all are. To step forward and openly talk about you time @ LFF takes guts.
I, myself, was not a member and only attended one time but if the abuse I suffered at the hands of LFF from this limited contact is any indicator, I can't imagine what you had to endure.
In the early '90 I became involved with one of the sons of a LFF "founding family". We lived out of the area at the time but when our relationship was discovered, he was told that he needed to come home and bring me with him. Although I thought it was a strange request for a church to make, I agreed and we planned a trip to Pullman.
Obviously, on Sunday we went to church. My boyfriend and I (and my chaperone) were met at the front door. He went to sit with his family but I was told I would have to sit elsewhere and was handed off to a "host couple". I was stunned. I had no idea it was just beginning.
After services, I was taken to an back office, by myself. After sitting there awhile, several church members (mostly men, including my boyfriend's father) came in and started questioning me. They knew all about me, and I mean everything. After almost two hours, my boyfriend was brought into the room. In a very matter-of-fact sort of way, my boyfriend was told that he was to go home, pack his belongings and his brothers would be sent to move him back to Pullman. I could absolutely not believe what I was hearing. I made the mistake of protesting. I was told that I was a sinner of the worst kind; that I was a filthy slut (they actually produced compromising photos of us together taken where we lived 4 states away though the windows of my apartment). They insinuated that they would send them to my mother, my pastor back home. They threaten to destroy me. To this day, I can not believe that people who claimed to be Christians could do that to a person.
After just one day with LFF, I spent years feeling dirty and unworthy of God's love. Fortunately, I have recaptured my love for the Divine but it is between Him and I only. I haven't set foot in a church in 17 years.
You are all brave, and I wish peace for you all, in what ever form you can find it.
I;m glad you all have found solice in this website. I have to ask though, why do you all hate LFF? I don't understand. I have been here for three years now with LFF and I love it. I am graduating soon and I will really miss it and all the people there, and the college care groups. It really is a fun place to be. It makes me really sad that you all did not have a good time here in Pullman and that LFF hurt you.
Hi Open Minded,
You won't understand until you leave.
Trust me.
Hello,
I want to first say that all of you have every right to feel the way you do. However, I do have some issues. First, I am close with the Vances & Fitzerald's, I have been since my freshman year of high school & I love all of them. They have failed at their job though. They are great people, but bad leaders. Very legalistic, and hypocritical. They say they are all about loving people and helping them, but it is only an act because when it comes right down to it, they "accept" those who have messed up, not because they want to disciple them, but rather making them feel guilty and using their guilt to manipulate them into believing their cult-like creed.
I spent a lot of time in the depths of that church, very involved and I knew I wanted out after 3 months. My dad was very loyal to LFF because they had managed to manipulate him until the end when my mother and I put our feet down & SHOWED him specific instances, and even then he always had a way to justify it. He called it "a high commitment church" Chyea, it was high commitment all right. They want you to live your life around the church.
I wasn't raised in that church, but I have many friends who were, a couple who ended up in jail for a bad drug habit and another who is still deeply hurting from all the legalistic ways. When I was a freshman, I had a friend who was a senior (17 years old) and her parents - who were on the leadership staff - wouldn't let her watch PG 13 movies. If they did, they made her fast forward through sex scenes or curse words. It was very bizzare. She had to account every where she went, with whom, and why they were going there. If they didn't like the people she was friends with, they wouldn't allow her to speak to that person. Pastor Phil & Kari Vance's oldest son got married young, but when he and his wife were only dating, the Vances made the both of them sit down with them twice a week and account EVERY little thing that went on in their relationship. If they held hands, they were reprimanded. VERY controlling. You would think that when you're in a relationship what goes on between the two of you is between the two of you. I understand a level of accountability, but that was out of control.
I feel so bad for the kids who have to grow up in that cult, it's not fair to them because they don't know any different, therefore they don't have any discernment about the atrocities that go on right in front of them. It's bad when someone's heart is hurt, but it's worse when a child's heart is hurt. Many of the graduating class from the church's school from 2-3 years ago have turned away, gone to drugs, and haven't gotten out. Believe me, I witness it every weekend because these kids are my friends. One of them in particular had SO much potential in basketball, he was PCS' star guard his junior & senior year, he was a great guy, he had a lot of talents. But he didn't buy into all the crap LFF was feeding him so he ended up becoming a pothead his senior year, and after that ended up getting arrested because he & another guy from the church were selling drugs. LOTS of them, they moved a grand everyday. He's out now, and still the great guy I knew but he had so much potential to go places and do things, achieve great things but he didn't know how to cope with his pain, so he turned to drugs. And instead of nurturing him, the Vances blamed his parents that they had failed at raising him, if only they had done it they way the VANCES told them too.
Don't get me wrong, I love those people, but I hate their leadership. It is twisted, manipulative, and not aligned with Bible whatsoever.
I feel for those of you who still have bitter hearts towards LFF, I don't blame you and you have every right to feel the way you do, but don't condemn the people themselves because Jesus loves them too, despite their faults. They just shouldn't be in leadership, that's all.
Thank you
I was looking for the LFF site, and was curious what this one was about. I peeked in and saw a whole lotta stuff the word of God says not to do. Quite shocking, to say the least!
Expose's are not Christian like. It is a very worldly thing to do. Now I can understand if there was heresay going on, but that is not the case.
Why not try forgiveness? This blog will only rott you from the inside out. There is no healing in it as you soppose, only Spiritual death.
The Truth is, LFF is very deep in the Spirit, for those who are only "ankle deep" in the Spirit, it is probably above their heads, they drown in it, for lack of fruit.
Every Church will test your fruit. I know, I have made the rounds too. Stop looking at the people, and start looking at the principalities.
Start praying. This will free you from the spirit of offense. We are to pray for our enemies, remember, not do an expose on them.
@ 7:50
Someone who is not "ankle-deep" ought to be aware enough to know that this site is not intended for them.
If you love LFF keep going. But there was a reason that 75% of the leadership team left. You can't tell me that it was for lack of spiritual depth or to chase a sinful life. Rather, it was an acceptance of the fact that LFF was not a place that fostered positive growth. You have only to look at the children they have turned out to see that this is true.
As long as you are in good graces you will never see it. So I am wasting my time typing this.
Like I said it goes on in every Church. It is about pride and control (on both sides). You think LFF is the only Church to have a split?
As for rebukes, yeah I'm done for it too is wasted, since you are not intrested in authentic and honest blog communication from a biblical stand point.
Did God tell you to go on this blog and rebuke people, then decided that wasn't a good idea since people wouldn't listen?
You want to have a Biblical conversation? Game on.
You want to come in here and tell me that the hundreds who have left LFF and been helped by this site were only "ankle deep" spiritually? Move along.
Proverbs 17:9 (AMP) He who covers and forgives an offense seeks love, but he who repeats or harps on a matter separates even close friends.
(KJV) He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth very friends.
(NKJV) He who covers a transgression seeks love,
But he who repeats a matter separates friends.
Thank you Father God. Father I give you praise! In Jesus name I ask you to convict your children to shut this blog down.
If you find this site to be so offensive....DON'T VISIT IT!!!!It's not about turning from God, but rather providing a healing place for those of us so deeply hurt by an incredibly judgmental place. In my time at LFF, I had hoped I'd found a spiritual home. A place I could live authentically and grow. But, I quickly learned that's that the truth of the place. It was a place to judge others and point the finger at what you did or do wrong vs. looking at oneself for self reflection and growth. So, for those of you that want to visit this site to post your Bible lines and point the finger, look first in the mirror and then keep your hate to yourself.
How about moving on to the future, instead of reveling in past hurts and pain?
God is moving on and so am I and others.
In all the years I've been associated with LFF, I been encouraged to be the most I can be. I also see that LFF is just one part of God's church. They reach out to college students, young and older families. Are they perfect, probably not, but who among us is?
Please move on and put the past hurts, misunderstandings and mistakes behind.
As the Former Dread Pirate Roberts I can say that this blog has done some good. I also think that it should continue to be here. I do hope that it can also be a place for true dialogue with all parties. P. Phil has reached out to me through some other friends and I think he really wants to open up a dialogue. Please contact him and see if we can start healing for everyone.
Thanks, John B.
I was raised in this church from birth, and although my parents were loyal members they were not involved to the point of compromising their family life as others did. They did not rely solely on PCS and the church to raise me and my siblings, and i thank them for this.
I have kept many of the values that I have been raised with, but I have learned to seek truth for myself instead of relying on an organization or leader to tell me what is truth. Since I've taken off the filter that i was raised with, and now have the perspective of looking in from the outside, i can see things differently. I'm not saying that organized religion does not have a purpose or that it never helps anyone, but people need to think and act for themselves. I wonder how many churches instill guilt instead of forgiveness, and how many followers wish that they could be as close to God as their leadership, when in fact they may be closer.
As a child I thought that i was lucky to be in a church that was better than the other churches, and that the way that my church did things was the way that God wanted them. Now I realize how powerful indoctrination can be and what organizational behavior is capable of producing, and i think I am better from this experience. Now, though I retain many christian values, I am wary of organized religion and I am committed to finding truth in the best way that i can find it, and I trust God to guide me. People should be more concerned with loving their neighbor than telling other people how to live. I hope that the acquaintances and friends of mine who attend LFF realize this for themselves
has this place changed much in the past 4 years?
I've been going here for the last few weeks and I really thought I was growing, and changing in Christ. I was changing alright, I had become the kind of Christian I always abhorred. I found myself looking down on others because of certain choices they made, and it took the intervention of God through two outstanding friends that showed me the truth about what I was becoming. I have always been critical of modern day Pharisees, and I found that that was what I was. I was shocked how easily this happened to me. I put on the holier than thou personas that give Christians the poor reputations they have today. I wasn't growing in God. Rather, my faith became cheapened by the way I flaunted it. Jesus rebukes this behavior in Matthew 6:1 "Beware of practising your piety before others in order to be seen by them; for then you have no reward from your Father in heaven." My relationship with God became a show for others, not the deeply personal interaction one should have with their Father. Be willing to share, but causing conflicts just turns people away from God; it serves no one, least of all Christ.
Anonymous for 9/26 - Thank you for sharings. You are lucky (blessed) that you have such great friends to point this out to you. Be ready for LFF to still try and get you back. They may even ask why they fell short. The best thing you can do is be honest, but be prepared to "agree to disagree" or else you might suffer a great conflict with your "friend."
I saw a documentary on Jim Jones last night. The level of control he had over his disciples was comparable to that of SOME of the leaders/followers at Living Faith. Jones was a perfect example of abuse when using the Sheparding System.
Please, don't ever let anyone come between you and Jesus!
People at LFF might make you feel good or be your best friend, but don't ever let them come in between you and your Lord Jehovah.
I also recommend avoiding their indoctrination classes like the "Carpenter Series" or "MIRROR".
Also there are a lot of nice people at LFF who have let bad things go on right in front of their eyes and not stepped in to correct. I was one of those people.
Please read about the Milgram experiment for a likely explanation of why people don't speak up when they are under someone else's authority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment)
I'm not so sure about the Milgram comment. Living faith fellowship can be a very messed up place. With that said, there are some very great people that attend service there.
I've always wondered why these people don't splinter off and start a church that is not twisted. Maybe they've become too co-dependent or perhaps they are scared that LFF leaders will reveal some dark things they confessed to early in their attendance at the Church. What do you think?
I think people don't leave because they have grown to rely heavily on the people above them.
I just hope this reliance does not come before their relationship with the Lord Jesus.
Dear OpenMinded,
Many of these comments you read on this blog are from many years ago. I know because I saw many of these things take place.
To everyone else who is downtalking this people who vent here, the first step of healing and forgiveness is acknowledging there was hurt sent or received.
I grew up in LFF. I have been trying for years to get over the hurt. Many times I cannot think about it without getting mad at the people in my life who hurt me so much under the guise of helping. Sometimes I think about LFF and hope the people there have softened and changed their ways.
I have deeply rooted suspicions of churches and people in general becuase of what I saw at LFF.
To those who have been able to move on, how do you do it? I can't stop from comparing many church experiences to those at LFF.
I am sorry to you the author of the previous post that I did not stand up for PCSers when I was a part of this organization.
Jesus said what you have done to the least of these you have done unto me. I wish someone would have intervened for you.
One of the greatest displays of Christian love is how a father treats his children. It troubles me to see how many PCS kids have been so deeply hurt by parents who attend or attended LFF.
"you will know them by their fruits."
Are their more telling fruits than the children of the people who attended this place?
"I can't stop from comparing many church experiences to those at LFF."
Comparisons can be a good thing!
You can use your experiences to your advantage when choosing a new place to worship.
For starters you can see how people treat their kids at any new church you go to. This is a very telling sign. Also look at how husbands treat wives and visa versa.
"To those who have been able to move on, how do you do it? I can't stop from comparing many church experiences to those at LFF."
I'm sure that the moving on happens differently for each person, but for me, time was a great healer - time and distance. Also, I have to keep reminding myself that God can take negative experiences and use them for good in my life.
I've tried to examine myself to see where I was at fault while at LFF - times where I violated my conscience - and I've tried to be committed to doing what I believe is right regardless of what others say. I'm not always successful, but the hope is always before me.
As I've looked at myself more honestly over the years, I've realized that I have the capacity to be cruel, betray others, take advantage of my position, and commit all the other sins that I experienced at the hands of others at LFF - it's God's grace that allows us to reject sin and choose to treat others with the kindness and grace that we have received at God's hand.
Thank you so much for answering my questions everyone. I no longer live in WA. time as come as a good way to forget enough to move on and make new memories with my church now.
I am sad when I learn how many times my parents tried to stick up for me and my sister, only to be shut down. how devistating when a father cannot protect his own children.
The graded BTH homework, the complete bullshitted applications we had to fill out to be at PCS highschool, the spiritual thought questions, the intense structure, and all the sin that was rubbed in my face. How can I calm these memories so they are only scars and not wolves ready to take over all my expectations.
I have tried prayer, meditation, therapy, medication, and forced fellowship. Alchol is next on the list.
I left Highschool only to join another abusive cult. I was in there for five years and now am out. this cult had all the same trappins of LFF. looks great at the beginning and only when your knee deep into it can one really see what is going on if you are not gobbled up by that time.
I can't stop comparing and expecting. when i see christians i expect certain behaviors. Like the behaviors I saw in LFF and in the cult. all the nicness up front and all the gossip in the background. People telling you they need you all the while talking about all your sin behind your back and telling others your bad points as if that is all there is of you. how do i get rid of expecting duplicity.
your recent posts break my heart. i am so sorry you had to go through this and hope you find the strength to press on.
are children still being treated poorly at this place?
perhaps "current lffer" can shed some light on this. he helped me out on the "LFF has a file on you" thread.
I have three kids, and I have nothing to complain about.
I have also never seen anything alarming or bordering on abuse in the treatment of children during my whole 10 years here.
And I have also moved around and traveled quite a bit, so LFF is not the only church that I measure this against.
- Current LFFer
I saw some weird stuff less than 10 years ago. I guess people have different ideas about what are good parenting practices.
To Current LFFer:
Do you have any children in high school? In my observations and experience, those were the most destructive and damaging years for many of the LFF children.
Does this place still suffer from MASSIVE disbelief in the Almighty?
Let Jesus be your God, don't let lff be your god.
Why do people who lead/frequent this place act in a remarkably similar fashion?
Who are they emulating? If it's not Christ than this is might be problem.
I certainly hope it's not Phil or Joe. If this is the case than many people are suffering a bit of an identity crisis.
This might be a result of the lack of identity of people who originally come to this church (myself included). If so then who is really to blame? It seems kindof odd to blame a church for helping lost people find an identity. Isn't this what fraternities do? Is something more going on here?
Ideally we would find our identity in Christ. If someone is not in Christ, does it matter what they find their identity in?
Outside of Christ, is it really better/worse to find their identity in joe/phil than in football, work or something else?
Why do people of this place tend to look down upon normal jobs?!? Are lay people really inherently less spiritual than church leaders?
With the amount of debt that the church has, you'd think normal jobs would be encouraged.
I am not sure that LFF is really a conventional church. I think its actually more of a ministry training center.
don't people usually leave "ministry training centers" after a period to go out and change the world?
Is Living Faith Fellowship still having issues like they had in the past?
Oh and how about CCF? After reading many of the posts and comments on here I am very curious to know if CCF has been affected from the same kind of stuff LFF suffered from.
It would be hard to imagine that the current leaders, who took full advantage of the situation before they assumed control, have truly changed. I could never judge their current inner motives, possibly survival or that disgusting mortgage, for the way they act now, but I can assure you that there were massive abuses of power committed against many people by the same people who now lead LFF.
If you consider the fact that most of their closest friends fled en masse when given the opportunity, you could safely assume that their closest friends were not happy in their situations. I can assure you that this is the case and not merely speculation.
The current female leader ran the place long before she assumed leadership. Yes, she did report to her dad and mom, in ways, but she ran the place, manipulatively, dishonestly and with untouchable piousness.
There has been much discussion on this blog about judging and not judging and the "fruit' of a person's life. Is it judging to call obvious abuse just that? I will never know, but I won't shy away from pointing it out to save others from the loss of life I experienced.
What I do know it that upon examining the lives of those who were closest to this leader and left, you now see people living lives freely and honestly. And no, you do not live an honest life at LFF. It is contrived in ways that a person involved will never be able to understand. I spent many, many years defending that place. I feel very stupid now for those things which I know the people at LFF will fail to recognize. There is just no way that the human mind could admit that daily choices to be a part of this system can actually damage their family. Your mind will not let you see it and upon reflection, from the mercy of passing time, it is still a painful thing to admit.
Yes, there are marriages that failed outside of LFF and lives that followed a path to destruction. That should come as no shock to anyone who witnessed the stresses these marriages and lives were wrought in. It is amazing to see how people live life without the pressure of "leadership."
I make no excuses for the sins I have committed and still live in. I wish, with everything in me that I could still believe. That is lost and I have accepted that. I still feel sick to my stomach when I hear worship songs, and I was under this female leader's direct mentorship. God I wish I had never been involved with her and the "holiness" and her altar the "holy hill." I wish with everything I had been mentored in humility and not quasi perfection. I worshipped with a woman who refused to sing "Heart of Worship" because she claimed to have never left the heart.
God that place ruined me and so many others. I accept responsibility for staying a part of a system that rewarded this "zeal." It felt good. Really good. And I was on a leadership track... I was going to do great things for God. I could go on, and keep in mind I hold no ill will, only regret.
So to your question: are there still issues? I don't know but there are many of "me" running around today with issues because of the current leadership. And we are well beyond an ice cream social to hear sorry. We have moved on, many without faith.
I'd be happy to discuss in more detail.
Thanks for the very informative answer. I truly am sorry that all of you had to go through what you did. I have decided to get out now before anything happens to me. I just have a very uncomfortable feeling about ever going back after reading about what has gone on there for so long.
Thanks for Sharing Ex Worship team. Your post was very helpful to me and others who have struggled with issues related to LFF.
Also, I don't think God condemns judging, only hypocritical judging. As long as you are prepared to be judged by the same standard you judge LFF leaders (based on your comments, I would think that you are), I don't think you have anything to worry about here.
"I have decided to get out now before anything happens to me."
That's probably a smart move. There are many great churches in the Palouse that you can become a part of.
I haven't been to LFF in awhile so I don't know what currently goes on there. However, even if they have changed, I would not go there. It's very prudent to take steps to protect yourself and your family.
I can forgive what LFF has done but I will not let myself be hurt by the leadership anymore. Church leadership carries with it a responsibility that I am not sure some people appreciate.
If a man has previously molested children and then repents he should be forgiven, but I don't recommend letting him babysit. I also don't recommend letting certain people abusers lead a church.
Admittedly, this is an extreme example, but abusing God's children in the name of religion is an offense that shouldn't be taken lightly.
While attending LFF I hurt people that didn't even go there. A part of me wants to seek these people out and apologize but a part of me is reluctant because it happened so long ago. Any advice?
Regarding asking forgiveness of those that you hurt, even if it was a number of years ago: My thought is that it's best to err on the side of asking forgiveness rather than pretending that nothing ever happened.
You don't say whether the people that you hurt are people that you are still in contact with. For me, many of the people that I hurt were in my family. They didn't understand why I preferred LFF over them and there were some specific ways that I hurt them. As these issues have surfaced over the years, I have apologized and asked forgiveness, but it took a while for the issues to surface because there was so much distrust that, honestly, was initiated by me while at LFF. Karl occasionally said that he and the church cared more about us than our families did - and we believed him, although in retrospect, I'm sure that wasn't universally true.
Anyhow, my advice would be to definitely ask forgiveness of those who you have regular or occasional contact with and pray about searching out, contacting, and asking forgiveness of those who you may have lost touch with.
Jesus please help those hurting from the wrath caused by any church leadership to heal.
Did anyone else notice a slight distaste for real world jobs when attending LFF? I know Pastor Joe had to do a little "tent-making," but my general feeling there was that a calling outside of the formal ministry was inferior than calling to formally serve a church body.
Perhaps this was just a conception I had based on the people I knew who frequented LFF. Perhaps not. Any thoughts? If this was a generally accepted view, have they perhaps changed their theology in this regard?
Every single pastor, minister, and lay leader at LFF has real-world employment on the side. I've never gotten the impression that real jobs were frowned upon. And I have always rejoiced when a friend finds employment, especially in these hard times.
A slight distaste for real world jobs? Absolutely! When I was at LFF, there was little encouragement for pursuing our callings - probably because if we had, we would have left the area. So, where that left people to work was at any job open in the area - Karl advised people to take 9 to 5 jobs so that they could be involved in service and ministry during the other hours of their days. Often, our jobs had nothing to do with our unique giftings and abilities, or with our desires and fulfillment. It was considered high honor to be asked to become an LFF employee, and the pastors especially were considered to be the cream of the crop. The reverence and adulation given to pastors and their children spoke more highly than anything else when it came to job value.
Sounds like someone got picked last on the schoolyard. :-)
"Sounds like someone got picked last on the schoolyard. :-)"
Your posts shows your true colors when you make fun of someone based on an unproven assumption you have rather than making a substantive reply. This is Bulverism at its worst.
You should probably get ahold of currentlffer to learn how to make a respectful reply.
With that said, it IS a formal ministry training center and it should be no surprise that they emphasize and promote formal training for ministry.
Sure there there are probably many people who judge ministry jobs better than lay jobs. If they didn't they wouldn't want to be in ministry training. What is more relevant is if the leadership of LFF judged their flock in this way? I don't know the answer to this.
Telling someone that formal ministry is better for them is great if they are called to the ministry. If they are not called, it can be a disaster.
When I was at LFF the people who lived off of the workers money were held by some to be in higher regard than those who worked, but that is a pitfall in many ministry training centers who emphasize formal ministry training. When encouraging people to make a jump into ministry it is easy to stumble into the pitfall of putting down laywork. I am not saying it is right but it is what it is.
Thank you currentlffer for making a respectful reply to the 5/5 post
"sounds like someone got picked last on the schoolyard"
Leadership excluded, many of the people who frequent LFF did get picked last at the school yard, its the reason their self-esteem is low enough to get trapped into going to LFF.
Quite simply put, for some of us, wounds heal but the scars remain for life.
There are some people in that organization that will never change. Some are addicted to the power they perceive they have, and some can not separate their identities from LFF. And quite frankly some are complete assholes who would derive their sense of self from belittling anyone who is not of LFF, or worse who walked away.
For those who pray for this blog to be shut down, or make assanine comments about being picked last, why bother? Are you so threatened by this gathering of abused souls? Or maybe, just maybe, this blog causes you to ask the hard questions. You know the questions the "leadership" doesn't want you to ask. Or have they brainwashed you all into believing this is persecution like Paul suffered.
As for me, writing my story helped those wounds become scars. Telling my story helped me realize that there was nothing wrong with me and if your bible is true, then I was created EXACTLY as your god wished me to be.
Of course, I no longer believe god, or the bible and least of all church leaders. It is all abused to give power to a few, at the cost of many.
It is truly sad that LFF's legacy will be the carnage in its wake. All to elevate a few.
re: "Of course, I no longer believe god, or the bible and least of all church leaders."
That comment is what motivates me to spread the news of the wrongs caused by LFF. This should go without saying but.... People should look beyond LFF when searching out the true Christian God.
Is there a way I can talk with someone privately about how to get out????
This isn't a safe place to post personal information to arrange a private meeting, but perhaps I can still help. The best way to leave LFF is to just stop going and stop meeting with members there. Don't try to explain your reasons for leaving, just go. I would also recommend some books for you to help fortify your resolve to leave and to help in your healing. They are: The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, Tired of Trying to Measure Up, and Soul Repair. All three are written by Jeff Van Vonderen. There are many other books on spiritual abuse out there, but I think these are some of the best.
I am praying for you.
send an e-mail to:
cultrecoverypullman@gmail.com.
They will help you get into touch with someone to talk to.
I met my wife at LFF and we left in the early 80's (Yes, I remember you John Brower). I'm not going to outline our experience here, because some readers may figure out who we are. I stumbled on this site a few hours ago after someone mentioned LFF in a passing conversation and I googled it just to see where things ended up after all these years. I've been mesmerized reading this stuff over the past few hours because I know from firsthand experience that much of it to be true. All these years, I thought we were the only ones that suffered at the hand of LFF...
I've never forgotten the pain I suffered at the hand of the Bardens. In one incident, I had to miss my LFF assigned work detail in order to attend my grandfatrher's funeral. Karl Barden was furious and called me at the funeral location to tell me he wanted to meet with me that night when I returned. I met him and Sherri about 10pm that night only to be fired from my leadership role and replaced by someone who was more committed.
We don't attend church anymore, but are still believers. Our experience at LFF has left permanent scars that I can't elaborate about. Sick stuff.
No, you definitely weren't the only ones that suffered - so many did. I hope that reading over the posts and comments in this blog brings some measure of understanding and healing. You are not alone, and you weren't alone back when you attended LFF. The leadership and members had a way of making people feel isolated, unsupported, and unfaithful if they questioned or weren't in lock-step with the vision.
DIFFERING VIEW PART 1
Most of the pain of LFF occurred under the old leadership of LFF. While new leadership is not perfect, and never will be, I can say there have been many positive changes at LFF.
I have attended LFF as a member for quite some time now and am good friends with the pastors, as well as being involved in college leadership in the Discipleship program. There was once a time where I read this blog because I was not sure I wanted to attend LFF anymore. I was feeling pressured to walk away from sins in my life, so I tried a different popular church in Pullman. I was poorly disappointed. After getting hooked on Pastor Phil's smile, laughter, sense of humor, and appreciation that I had come to church, my encounter with a less friendly pastor at a different church was a huge let down and immediately led me back to LFF. The differences between these two pastors was drastic. While both had great messages, Pastor Phil actually smiled during his, while the other pastor looked miserable. Pastor Phil's use of props and humor make it an entertaining experience to attend church every Sunday. Pastor Phil also always is super enthusiastic to meet knew people I introduce to them and is quick to ask them who they are, where they are at in their walk with the Lord, and shows genuine care for their lives. Used to his friendly nature, I tried to approach this less-friendly pastor and introduce myself only to be turned away with his disinterest in getting to know me.
Not only are the people super nice, and my best friends at LFF, Pastor Phil also talked to me in the early AM hours when I was having a really rough time and had no one else to call. He promptly answered the phone and consoled me through my issue.
DIFFERING VIEW PART 2
I realized soon, that my whole reason for wanting to leave LFF had shifted. I had seen this blog and it seriously had harmed my view of the friends I made there. Then I realized that the friendships I had at the church were by no means fake. I have been there too long and am a pro at spotting fake people. They are amazing and some of the most honest and true to them-selves Christians I know.
It occurred to me then, that the whole reason I had wanted to leave LFF and the reason many people in this blog have left is because they did not want people to see their sin. At first I felt this way. I liked my sin and I did not want to change. BUT THANK GOD THE PEOPLE OF LFF ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT MY SOUL AND WANT ME TO LIVE MY LIFE FOR CHRIST!! THANK GOD THEY POINT OUT MY SIN WHEN I AM TRYING TO HIDE AND IGNORE IT AND THANK GOD THEY SWEETLY CHECKED UP ON ME REGULARLY TO SEE IF I HAD GIVEN IT UP! Pastor Suzanne was amazing to me by checking into my life. She truly cared about my soul and my relationship with the Lord! When I rid myself of my sinful doing I was able to celebrate my freedom with her and others and now share my testimony all the time! And they were right when they told me that relationship with God goes hand in hand with true repentance and humility because it wasnt until I mastered those things that communication with the Lord began to flow openly in my life.
I DO NOT KNOW WHERE I WOULD BE NOW IF IT WERE NOT FOR THE PEOPLE OF LIVING FAITH FELLOWSHIP. I SURELY WOULD BE PARTYING, WITH AN ABUSIVE BOYFRIEND, AND PERHAPS PREGNANT IF THEY HAD NOT ASKED ME TO COME TO BIBLE STUDY WHEN THEY DID. I NOW HAVE GROWN INTO MORE OF A CHRISTIAN THAN I EVER COULD HAVE DREAMED AND AM GROWING IN MY RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD DAILY.
DIFFERING VIEW PART 3
While there may be issues with leadership or how things will run, you can find those things in every church. And you should not rely on man for your example for perfection. No man is perfect. We are all sinful, mess-up, and hurt people...if you are relying on church leadership to be your Lord than you will never find peace. I go to living faith fellowship because their classes are amazing and have taught me wonderful things about the bible that I have backed up with outside research on my own time (because I trust no man's word alone), the people are my family, and the body of Christ is alive and functioning at LFF. Their practices are scriptural, including the removal from membership (which the bible is actually even harsher about if you read it!). And if I question anything I find the proper authority to pose my questions to and they sit down and explain their reasoning with me backing it up with scripture.
THIS BLOG IS A PLACE OF BIBLICAL DISOBEDIENCE. THE BIBLE SAYS NOT TO ARGUE AGAINST FELLOW CHRISTIANS! THE FIGHT SHOULD BE AGAINST THE DEVIL! THE BIBLE ALSO SAYS THAT YOU MUST FORGIVE OTHERS OR YOU YOURSELF WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN--STRAIGHT FORM JESUS'S WORDS.
AT LFF YOU EITHER LEAVE OR YOU GROW ASTRONOMICALLY. I MADE MY DECISION TO STAY AND HAVEN'T LOOKED BACK AND THE GROWTH IN CHRIST HAS BEEN AMAZING BECAUSE I WAS WILLING TO ACCEPT THEIR GUIDANCE TO IMPROVE MY CHRISTIAN WALK. THANK GOD FOR LFF.
It is encouraging in a way to see the opposition to LFF because where-ever the Lord is moving, there too, the Devil will be most strongly attacking. The Lord moves at LF; people are moved to tears because they feel his presence there...this happened to me and a friend. Tears of happiness streamed down our faces as the warmth of God's love washed over us during worship! (and thank goodness for the convenient tissue boxes among the pews because this is no rare occurrence)I even brought my atheist ex-boyfriend there and he began to believe in the Lord, exclaiming that he could actually feel God's presence.
Pardon me for disagreeing bloggers, but LFF has changed me for the better. I do not let people walk on me. I question things often and I find leadership, often pastor Phil to question directly. I argue with the pastors til I am satisfied or agree to disagree and I love that church. The people are friendly, welcoming, and I dont fall through the cracks because I choose not to. I talk to the people who are standing alone. I welcome the newcomers. And I feel at home there. LFF is one of the biggest reasons I am a Christian today and a huge reason I love Pullman
dear differing view, sounds like you fit in quite well at lff.
I think what some fail to realize is the fact that LFF is built for people who need things delivered with a smile, people who desire outside affirmation to allay their own feelings of inadequacy.
If LFF is what kept you from sinning or getting pregnant, then that is great news. As it turns out, the world is full of people possessing the character to make right decisions on their own. In fact, the dramatization of personal struggle between good and evil is a message that serves to weaken most Christians. The world is full of Christians and non-Christians who simply do the right thing without hesitation because were never inculcated with the message of personal weakness which can only be fortified with prayer, the strength of groups or attending church. It is a sad thing the church has done to itself. If you need these things to make right decisions, please continue to use them, the world has plenty of people making a mess of everything as well.
With that out of the way let's cover the next topic: This blog is not built for you.
This blog is built for people who have already escaped and may need an understanding ear as they cope with the very real fallout of decisions they have made which affected others, decisions made for them through manipulation of the concept of authority, or people who simply hurt from witnessing these things.
I really don't understand why so many people come here to tell people that they are wrong. We don't come to your church and tell you that the allegedly nepotistic family dynasty under which you "grow" is a corrupt sales organization. We keep our opinions here.
Honestly, I applaud your happy life. Me, I still have dreams, years later, where I am back in a position in which Kari has control. I wake up to physical reactions of fear.
So you have your weaknesses: the need for someone to smile and encourage you to grow and remind you not to party. And I have mine: regret over the bullying I participated in while I was at LFF and regret for allowing myself to be bullied.
Let's deal with these things the way we need to and leave each other alone.
Go with God.
to 11/10/11, 10:39 pm:
Thanks for such an articulate, well-thought-out response.
I want to address this Blog as being disobedient to Christ. As a previous member of LFF I can say it is not. As I was involved with membership meetings, JCC, MIRROR and other programs I witnessed horrible abuse. Until my divorce I even had a copy of the Ushers Manual that spoke of Covert Operations. I found out purely by accident (thanks to Tom and Tracy Weaver) how hidden microphones were used.
So, let's talk about some things. In a family where there is abuse, do you hide it? No, the more you do the more likely abuse will happen. I don't know who started this page, but I think it is valuable. People have been severely damaged going there. I once walked into a meeting held for the ushers. It was being taught by someone outside of the church that was security or police. I stood in the back and listened how they were taught to control visitors with painful grips that the public could never noticed, if done right. Phil Wait (who I actually have fond memories of) spotted me and escorted me out. Well, I could go on with examples that are actually horrendous, but...
Can God work there? Absolutely. Are there good people there? Yes, absolutely. But I know so many people who have left God and our savior Jesus Christ because now they equate Him with LFF and its leadership. Why? Because LFF taught them that (even on a subliminal basis). Not to say we are not responsible for our own choices but the things done to people were (are???) terrible.
It would be so wrong NOT to expose what has happened and what may still be happening. I know individuals that have left LFF and had such a breakdown that they have killed others and themselves. The fact that they are still teaching MIRROR and that they have never come clean makes me worried for this church, the leaders and future members. Anyone can contact me: Heather Berg Location Tucson, Arizona on fb or musikalshark@hotmail.com
I pray for our healing in Christ.
My name is Pat Allan. I go to living faith now. I have been a Christian since the age of 15. I went to the bible study that started out at the Barton’s. Looking back I believe that God wanted me to experience the power and the uncertain movement of the holy spirit, but I took the safe way out, joined young life and became a cool Christian. I went to the efree church led by Jim Wilson. The teaching was great but it was always understood that lff is a cult of some type. As a Christian I read the word everyday and focused on my personal relationship with God. I grew and believed in evangelism. I have lived a faithful life in Christ, married for 35 years, raised 4 kids, some following Jesus and some not, and struggled most of my life with sin. I have found in all this that God loves us no matter what and that when he has allowed the pain of judgment and disappointment it was to help me learn to love more.
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