My Truth About Living Faith Fellowship
Well hello there! I stumbled across your blog a several months ago and found myself very disturbed by what I was reading. As an ex-LFF'er myself, I left LFF with a very different perspective than the tone of your blog. I wrote out the following, but never sent it. Anyway, after much ruminations, I thought I would pass it along to you and see what you think. I don't think it's ready for your blog's audience, but I'm curious if you get similar e-mails? Anyway, here goes…
I ran into Liz Keefer at NW College, where my wife is a professor and had spoken in Chapel to the 700+ students and faculty that attend. In fact, what I wanted to communicate is discussed in the message my wife spoke. You can listen to it here - http://eagle.northwestu.edu/chapel_mp3/20060130.mp3. Anyway, it was a joy to run into Liz (as I find it is when I run into anybody from my time at LFF). We had a good little talk about LFF and she turned me on to this blog. I was, of course, curious about it as I have mostly positive memories of LFF. I haven't read all of it but what I have read kind of makes me seethe a little bit - mostly about the posts that people are putting up. I sure am sorry that so many people feel so hurt and abused by the leadership of the church. To be fair, though, speaking with Liz confirmed what I guessed at but had no way of knowing at the time, that the kids at LFF, who through no choice of their own, were subjected to a very harsh and strict environment. It doesn't take a PhD in psychology to know that not all children will thrive in that type of environment. I am grieved over the PCS kids that I knew from my time at LFF who now I hear have rejected the faith. I pray and petition God to help them and heal them and the rest of what I'm writing has nothing to do with them. So here it is - I really think that a good healthy dose of personal responsibility ought to go along with what most of the people posting to this sight have written. My goodness, we chose our path! We chose to put ourselves and keep ourselves there and perpetuated many of the attitudes and actions that seem to have hurt so many.
My story is simple enough. I got saved at Heartbeat Retreat - and I still PRAISE Jesus for that day and the incredible ministry team at LFF. I did the whole LFF thing for 4 years through JCD's, CAT, etc., etc. etc.. I declare I'm the Christian I am today because of the investment and love that leadership poured into me. The incredible marriage I enjoy is bedded in the principles we were taught in Mirror and Pre-marriage counseling. To this day, I continue in the spiritual disciplines I learned at LFF. I thank God that Pastor Sherri poured into me the vitalness of intimacy with Jesus. To this day I read my bible through every year. I still journal and I hear the voice of the Spirit speaking to me. The servants heart that was instilled in me has not died, but has developed and continues to bless my congregation that I'm in now. Oh, and that whole LFF tithing teaching…ya, I still do that to. Not all to 'the local storehouse' but I would be happy to tell you about the several world vision sponsor children we have, or the list of missionaries we personally support. And to remove any doubt that I've gone from LFF to some other form of LFF you can check out my churches web site at www.canyoncreekonline.com. Believe me, it's nothing like.
It's been over 10 years since I attended LFF, and I've been a committed, serving member of 3 other churches since then…I'm not 'brain washed'. I'm in love with Jesus! I guess I really believed that we can live a sold out Christian life. I knew that the leadership was keeping a file on me and all my juicy dirt, maybe you've read it? I don't really care! I knew what I was in and I knew what was going on…I think you'd have to have your eyes shut tight not to have seen that. Goodness.
Anyway, after graduation from WSU, I was moving on with my life and had a happy parting from the church. I think back to my life at LFF and compare that to what I'm reading on this blog, and my heart grieves for the people who weren't willing to make choices that would have made their time at LFF a better experience, and in fact a better church. I knew I was a little different from most of my peers, but reading this blog confirms that in my mind. I never quite totally 'fit the mold'.
1. I think that Sarah and I are the only couple that got married at LFF who
Wasn't 'arranged' by leadership (I actually met her and fell in love with her outside of LFF!)
2. Sarah was barely an LFF'er (does 9 months at the church count…I think not).
3. And (OMG) we had people in our wedding party who were not LFF'ers
4. I don't remember for sure - but I think we even got a certain wording in the standard LFF wedding liturgy changed to be more accommodating to our families.
I think our wedding really displays what I want to say. I read in this blog that many felt there was a serious problem with conformity and guilt and what not. Well, there was a great deal of conformity…but was it required? I always found that when I was real with my leadership they always came around and supported me in my godly choices. In fact, I never felt like I was expected to do any particular thing…encouraged, certainly, but never demanded. For example, I remember being new to things and wanting my oversight to tell me what I should do…but I was always told to hear from God first and then let's talk. So that's what I did. Is this not a common experience? Yes, there was pressure to do certain things, but I never felt like I was black listed when I chose to pursue other routes…I don't know, maybe that's some new file system they've created - "THE BLACK SHEEP FILE"??? (I'm laughing out loud at my own sic joke). Anyway, I suppose most of us chose to cave into the pressure, rather than really live out who we are and to be truly open and honest. I love the many posts that have much to say about how, post LFF, they feel like they can really be who they are. It's funny…why couldn't they do that at LFF??? Ya, there was a lot of pressure to conform, I still remember being a little sad when I would see some of my friends cave in to the pressure and cut their long hair off if they were a guy or start wearing too much makeup if they were women. Maybe I never had to deal with the whole conformity thing too much since I already 'looked the part'. But certainly, my actions and my sin where known…yet I still never felt like I was on the outs with anybody. I just lived who I was and was truthful and real with my oversight. I mean check this out…I was 'Confirmed?' in CAT 4 at the end of the year a few weeks before I left…with the leaderships full knowledge I was leaving the church. I say this only to reinforce my feeling that even when they knew I was leaving, I was not snubbed but rather 'blessed' by confirmation. "
I think the reality of most of our lives is that WE are the idolaters. We worship the approval of men more than the approval of God. Talk about idols…isn't that what most of us were approaching…idolizing the Vances or the Bardens or the other Pastors? I really think that most of my peers were afraid to try and be who they really were for some fear of upsetting the pastors. That surely is a theme in the posts I've read here. And maybe they did get on some black list…so what! Jesus certainly was on the black list for his time. Big friggin deal…he still changed the world within the confines of his place. I could go on about the life of Paul the Apostle and John the Baptist and Elijah and Jeremiah and and and...
There was a reason I never became a full fledged member (well, and as a single guy, there was that other issue…you can read about it in my file). I was fully aware of the pressures that walked the halls of LFF when I went there…but I never felt like I wasn't loved for who I was or for not making that next step from provisional member to full member. Maybe I got lucky in my oversight. Truthfully, I will say there were those over me who I knew were just going through the motions of 'investing' in me - but I saw it for what it was and I only pressed into those who I found to be genuine. I don't know a church in the USA who doesn't have fakers in it. Those I really poured my heart out to were the ones who were real and I always felt a genuine return of love.
For all the talk about how the heart of what was taught being the most important thing at the church, I think that it is the heart of the teaching that has been lost on many of the stories I've read on this site. I used to think that if only the incredible love for Jesus that the people at LFF possessed, and their sincere desire to serve and minister to people could be infused into the thousands of other lack luster churches across our land…what a different church we would see today. When I started to hear of the families who were moving on and away from Pullman shortly after P. Phil took the helm, my heart rejoiced! I thought, now surely there will be some communities of faith who will be truly blessed to have former LFF members involved and serving in their communities - and I hope there are. How sad I am now to read and hear that among these families there have been divorces, people have fallen away from the faith and then this blog spot where everyone can dump their ill feelings for the whole world to read. I do think there is a process we all must go through after leaving LFF…it was, for good or ill, and incredible place and I think not to find it elsewhere. Because, from my experience at LFF, I still follow the heart of the teaching…if not all of the form of the teaching. I found Jesus as the bedrock of my life and the strength of my existence - and it is because of the incredible investment made by my home care leaders, by my pastors and by the many other people who encouraged me and blessed me along the way.
I just recently read a book by Erwin McMantus called "the Barbarian Way." This book speaks directly to what I am saying. Following Christ is about following Christ…not the limited menu options available by trying to please a few key people. And here maybe my whole argument breaks down, but I really believe that LFF is a place that people could follow Jesus in the specific calling and in all the uniqueness of who they are. You might say that certain choices would limit your ability to minister at LFF. Sure, if you didn't go to crew or whatever, you would be disqualified for formal ministry through the church…but why is it that we sought those positions and coveted them so? I used to think that the pinnacle of success in ministry would be being a Home Care Leader. But on reflection and after many years of following Jesus, I find that success in ministry is way broader than that. It is my experience and belief that LFF was a place where your ministry passions can be pursued…if we truly gave up trying to fit in or please people or climb some ladder of status. Well, there it is.
Last thoughts - Here are some random thoughts I've had in writing this letter (which has turned into a surprisingly long thing) that didn't seem to fit in anywhere else.
About anonymity - Some of my best friends are Pastors. My wife teaches at a Bible College. I think that pastors are taught in seminary 101 not to open or read anonymous letters. I think this whole anonymous business is rubbish, excepting when you have legitimate reasons to protect someone else. I think that it can do more harm than good. Yes people are more able to open up…but to what end? Are we really helping ourselves by telling everyone about our dirty laundry? What if I'm the perpetrator of the pain? How could I possibly know who this person is and seek reconciliation?
'truthaboutlivingfatih' - Hmmm...pretty punishing name. I suppose many feel they've earned right to use it - to do their own shake down on the church. It reminds me of the TV news story that broke when I was there…The Cult Church in Pullman. I personally liked the way they interviewed Pastor Karl - in the dark and asking menacing questions. Soooo, that was pretty obvious we hadn't had much media experience. Wowzers. I certainly had a very different and very positive experience, contrary to the majority of posts I've read on this site. Truth is a pretty brutal word that many on this site have accused the leadership of abusing. Might you also be doing the same? I certainly came away with a completely different 'truth about living faith'. Could I suggest an name change to 'LifeafterLFF' or something a little less gauntlet like????
My hope - My hope for everyone who has ever been a part of, is currently a part of, or ever will be associated with LFF is simply this: "Summing it all up, friends, I'd say you'll do best by filling your minds and meditating on things true, noble, reputable, authentic, compelling, gracious - the best, not the worst; the beautiful, not the ugly; things to praise, not things to curse." Phil. 4:8 I've found in my Christian walk that what matters most in how we live is loving God first, and then loving people - whether through pain and suffering or through joyous exultation. Dear friends, let us love one another. I suspect if my words are ever repeated to some, they will cause outrage and pain ("you're just blaming the victim!"). My intent is not blame, but to examine what drove us to be 'victims' as so many have accused. Then, at the end of the day, my desire would be healing and reconciliation. I cannot presume to see things from others perspective, but my heart goes out. I remain totally and eternally thankful for the love and rich investment made in my life by Pastor Karl, Pastor Sherri, Pastor Phil, Pastor Kerri and the host of other leadership who gave of themselves for me. Best regards,Eric L. Drivdahl
29 comments:
Please remember not to flame! Eric has a view that others share. Please read it, and reply, not out of anger, but honestly to the points he makes. I have thought about changing the name of the blog, but don't honestly know how with out starting a new blog. I don't want to do that. So, we will stay with the name already established.
Let's keep the conversation going, but I will delete any inflamatory comments.
DPR!!!
I think your views of LFF are justified for the experience that you had there. 10 years ago things may have been different than 2-3 years ago.
The constant fluction in members and ideology makes it near impossible to compare one's experience to anothers.
The vast amount of people who are mentoring creat different experience for those the mentor.
I don't think anyone here has implied that the simple act of leaving the church gets you black listed, as it seems you are refering to with your cat 4 confirmation story. Lff encourages people to go our and pursue their ministry, but saddly many are so hung up on climbing the leadership ladder that they stay put.
I think many who come to this board do so because we've been wronged. You obviously weren't, but most of us here were and our experiences are real our emotions are real. Some take longer than others to heal. SOme can let wrong doings slide off their backs while others soak in those deep pains and suffer for a long time.
Just because the things you read about on this blog didn't happen to you, doesn't mean that they didn't happen and that they don't continually happen day after day after day.
Some blame us for our words, ostracize us and claim that we're just living in rebellion or weren't really saved to begin with. I think that's wrong.
People shouldn't come here to condem us, christian's especially. We get a lot of LFFEr's posting flamiming things here. They are just further proving our points. THe love is there if you strive to be perfect and you take all the classes and you praise the church and you jump through 30 more hoops. But where's the love for those they have done wrong?
Why is it so hard for some to admit that they hurt another. I'm not asking for them to admit they are wrong, because they truely believe that they are right. I just want some acknowledgement that some of the members were truely vicious, backstabbing and manipulative.
You mention there are going to be fakes at any church. That's a reality that I have struggled with. LFF was my first church experience, I got saved there, I met my husband there (yes even I see good that came from being there). But to teach that christians should be one way and then to act in the complete opposite, has caused me great confusion in my spiritual walk.
I don't want to associate myself with christians because of how evil they can be.
I just ask that before discrediting us, just because your story doesn't line up with ours, you just stop and think that all of all of us on here having similar stories...do you think we're making them up and that they just aren't true?
These things happend to us, we have a right to seek healing with those who want and need healing in return.
Kristin Logsdon
See I'm not hiding anything either
To the last poster. Eric was there in the really questionable years. The church you went to 2-3 years ago was a totally different church in many ways from what Eric went to. Eric you say that in your point 1. that you were the only non-arranged marriage. Please be careful in posting that on this site as people will read that as fact. My marriage wasn't arranged either. In fact, in the weddings I have been to at LFF since the 80's, I've never known one to be arranged.
Maybe arranged is too strong of a term. My experience was that I was strongly encouraged to consider one of two people. I was also told to stop chasing after "cheerleaders". HOnestly I don't remember any pom poms! ;-)
It was the early 80's however. I think part of what Eric said has merit (not that I agree with it all). We were volitional in chosing LFF. We made choices to stay as long as we did, and choices to leave when we did. I left on good terms, and it is only in the last year that I have been in a place where I could really question my experience at LFF. I started asking the truthaboutlivingfaith people why they were so bitter. They didn't flame me in reply, but said that maybe my experience wasn't so bad, but others had a harder time. I am glad that this blog is here so people have a safe place where they can reflect. A place where they can examine their beliefs. Too many people in Christianity take their faith at the face value of what someone else has told them to believe. It is good to examine what you believe and why. It is when we spend the time to look deep inside and see what is there that we are free to get rid of what doesn't work and to take what does. That is the kind of revival that has changed the face of history many times. Maybe this is the start of a new reformation in our own midst!
food for thought, John B.
Thank you for sharing something positive about attending Living Faith. My years in Pullman were some of the best years of my life -started attending in 93 at WSU, finally graduated on the five year plan in 98, got married, and enjoyed being a part of the GOOD things in being a real Christian!!
Maybe my farm country wholesome upbringing of watching musicals and Pollyanna, and being a preachers kid made me to be overly forgiving and friendly, but I considered my time in Pullman as a blessing. Yes, Pollyanna does say to look for the good in people, and you will find it.
I admit it I'm a movie one liner fan. (Dread Pirate Roberts, why don't you call your self Wesley! Just wondering...have fun storming the castle!)
Yes there are things I don't care to remember about certain people still in leadership at LFF, but you take the good and leave out the bad. I have my fair share of bad memories, but my dwelling on them does NOT help me move on with my life. Yes, they are legitimate emotions that took time in me to heal, but let the soothing balm of Jesus and other great churches and pastors out there be a motivation to enjoy being a Christian. It is worth it!!
My dad who was a down to earth pastor taught us that God is in the judging business, and it is our job to be in the loving business. In drawing people by our own choices and lifestyle of the love of Jesus and what the Bible says is enough! You don't need any fancy TV shows or "Church guidelines" to "convince" you how to be a Christian.
One of my favorite songs we sang growing up is: Turn your eyes upon Jesus, look full in His wonderful face, and the things of earth will grow strangly dim, in the light of His glory and grace!! Take the word "earth" and insert "LFF" if you have that much built up hatred, but please let God begin the healing in you. He does care about you, and the every detail of your life being an enjoyment to Him.
Now that my dad has passed away, these words ring even truer when I wanted to have a few not so nice words with an idiotic co-worker today.
Let's be real. You know the people who you cared about most and cared about you as a person, and could honestly confide in them. Let the GOOD memories hold you and keep you!! God is the one who is the ultimate judge, not your past HCL's or who ever it is that you are upset with.
Here is another song I thought of:
God is bigger than the boggie man, he is bigger than Godzilla and the monsters on TV, (and even LFF), God is bigger than the boggie man, and HE IS WATCHING OUT FOR YOU AND ME!! (Compliments of Veggie Tales).
I remember helping at the reception for Eric and Sarah's wedding, and it was one of the sweetest and most sincere ceremonies I can remember. It is great to hear from you.
Please keep on sharing the good things! It was refreshing to hear.
To people who don't know eric and sarah you may think he is judging us but he is possibly one of the most sincere people I ever met at LFF. His and Sarah's relationship was very sweet ane their wedding was beautiful. You could feel the love they shared. Possibly the sweetest wedding I have ever been to.
Stacey Hawley
Dear Anonymouses...
Arranged Marriages
Yes...I recind the bit about 'arranged' marraiges...I actually didn't expect this to be posted so soon, but was looking more for a little feedback from the blog monitor before anything got posted...just scratch that part. It was definitely a poor choice of wording on my part. I never saw or heard about an arranged marraige while at LFF. I did see people encouraged and discouraged in their relationships, but NEVER told absolutely yes or no.
I wrote this whole thing out months ago while I was working through my emotions to what I'd been reading on the site, and as I wrote, I was a bit torn-up and reacted using a strong sounding word. By the way...no hard feelings Mr./Ms. DPR - I should have edited it better before I e-mailed it to you.
e.drivdahl
Eric, I attended LFF around the same time you did. I can understand your point of view in that I might have felt the same had I never become a member. There were different expectations and treatment at that level of involvement, and I imagine increasingly so the closer one moved toward the center of leadership. I loved LFF up until the point of membership and then it became such a struggle for me. I could never reconcile the apparent good with the feeling that something wasn't quite right. It didn't make sense at the time, but looking back I can understand so much more. I'm much wiser at age 35 than I was at 20, and this blog has helped tremendously in helping me define and understand the strong sometimes opposing feelings I've had since leaving LFF. It's very difficult to judge something that you were never a part of. I'm not a victim, I chose to be there and I chose to leave when things went wrong according to my conscience. I know you mean well, but please don't discredit the experiences of myself and so many others.
Well said!
Eric knows all the "right things" to say....no wonder he fit so well into the LFF paradigm! But all the "nicey niceness" lacks a sense of truth and reality. I know because I still live here in Pullman have direct contact with the present day memebers of LFF. There are serious problems with doctrinal error, pride, and mean-spirited arrogance. I deal with the entire public and have the opportunity to see how both LFF and non-LFF people live. Give me the non-LFFers any day!
-ML99
I'll second that!
Eric and Sarah . . . . I was just a kid at the time you were at the church, but I agree with Stacey Hawley about what great people they are.
At this point, I don't care what LFF has done right or wrong, I just hope people find happiness and healing.
Eric, I hope you and Sarah are doing very well!
Dear Anonymouses Again –
I want to share a story about something I just experienced. Last Saturday I spent the afternoon at the Church in Kirkland I attended for several years at a memorial service for a precious 6 year old girl who died of brain cancer. I know this family very well and remember holding this darling little girl along with my own son who was the same age while at the church. I cannot fathom to know the depth of their loss, as I still have my child with me. The most incredible testimony during the service was from the mother’s sister who shared what God had shown her regarding the whole ordeal. I’ll paraphrase as best I can…
She saw a vision of a sandy beach that stretched out for miles and miles. The sand on the beach represented the wealth of memories that this family had with their daughter. On the beach there was a very large rock and this rock was removed leaving a gaping hole in the sand. The rock being removed, of course, is the loss of their daughter. What this grieving aunt said next was profound. She said then that the waves of the water represented God’s grace that comes in as faithfully as the tide. These waters of grace would begin to reshape the hole in the sand…at first smoothing the rough edges, later making the hole shallower, even filling it in until one day many days from now, the gaping hole would be impossible to find, but rather a beautiful sandy beach that one could walk on and enjoy. She continued by saying that the memories of pain and loss would be drawn out into the sea of God’s forgetfulness.
I cannot deny the pain of this family’s loss. Similarly, I would be a fool to believe that all the hurt and pain vomited up on this blog never happened to former members of LFF. Of course it happened. The point I’m trying to make hear is that we are ALL culpable. If I may go back to this grieving family, I would say that if in a year or two or ten from now that they are still as emotionally shipwrecked as they are now over the loss of their daughter, I would think that the tender words of God to them where to no effect. God has tremendous amounts of grace for them as communicated by the dead girls aunt. He lavishes on us his love and mercy.
I found such tremendous good and eternal benefit from my experience at LFF. I think it’s perfectly normal to go through a grieving process when we feel we’ve been hurt. What I think smacks of vindictiveness is the perpetual repetition of the pain and hurt. I feel like there is so much more to be said on the side of what good we can take away from our experiences at LFF. This family that lost their daughter will one day recover from this tragedy and when they do, imagine how they will be able to love.
If you’ve been legitimately hurt by someone at LFF, you do need to grieve. By all means, we need to acknowledge the pain…”This HURTS!” (OMG…I sound like P. Sherri!). As Americans, we all too often stuff our feelings and suffer shallow relationships and unfulfilling lives because of it. But the flip side is even more powerful. When we do get past our hurt and we allow the waves of God’s grace to wash us completely and we heal, what a blessing we can be. What power we have to LOVE.
I love they way one responder to my writing said “Eric knows all the "right things" to say”. I wish I understood better what this person is trying to communicate. Look, I have found the principles I learned at LFF to be true in my life. There are good and godly principles that anyone can take with them from LFF, things that will bless and deepen the richness of life and their relationship with Jesus. I’m sure there are people at LFF that have adopted the form of the teaching and abandoned the heart of the teaching which opens the door to all kinds of ugliness. But this is the human condition, isn’t it? Don’t we all deal with each other’s short comings…both in and out of the church?
Another responder wrote “I don't want to associate myself with christians because of how evil they can be.” Without gall, I have to ask the responder, just who then do you associate with? It’s true, I know and love some incredible people who are pagans and church people who drive me banana’s. Let’s just take this out of the context of the church altogether and we find that there are the same two groups of people. I think it’s unfair and even defamatory to lump the whole of LFF into the worst category. While I don’t deny other’s negative experiences, I clearly came away with a different story.
My time at LFF was marked with my own having to choose which of the two groups of people I would hang out with at LFF. I hope and believe that the latter group is a much smaller portion of the whole at LFF, or perhaps I was more right than I know when I said I got lucky with my leadership/friends. We’re all culpable and in our culpability we have to make our way through this world and sometimes we get it wrong. Maybe many of the stories on this site result from getting it wrong and trusting in the wrong group of people at LFF. All I know is I was blessed to be there, I love visiting on the rare occasions I’m in town and I’ve been blessed by taking the wealth of good and forgetting whatever else there was to forget. It’s healthy to grieve, but once that’s done, let it be done and go on with the fullness of life that is in Jesus.
Yours,
Eric L. Drivdahl
PS - To the several people who've posted such nice things about Sarah and I...I'm humbled and thankful that anyone would say that about us. There are so many precious people I know from my time at LFF and relationships that I formed that I cherish so very much...I miss you all! Come and visit when you can!!!
Much love,
e.
Hi Eric- When I made the comment about you "saying all the right things" I was thinking about how LFFers were (still are?) affirmed by leadership for "saying all the right things" (all things in agreement with "The Vision of the House") -even if they weren't necessarily completely honest and true. This, of course is the well-known practice of "brown-nosing." Maybe in your case the things you are saying about loving LFF are genuinely sincere but while I was reading about how you still tithe as per LFF, etc I was strangely reminded of the passage in Luke 18:10-14. Just sounded like the same old LFF pride talkin'....same stuff...new location. Eric, you should know that New Testament giving is not based on any standard of tithing but is a matter of the heart and of the conscience...and you should know that tithing is not even mentioned in the New Testament. "Your boasting in the Law is not good..." but very typical of the LFF crowd...both then and now. As for the healing words I say "Amen" but for those of us still here spiritual warefare continues. And I for one will not put down my sword until the last bit of legalistic hypocrisy is brought into the full obedience of our Lord Jesus. Blessings to all.
-ML99
I think the continual story telling of pain and negative experiences is our way of expunging our experiences. Also, I think like you, Eric, people find this blog and they want to add their experiences.
Every person that attended (or attends) LFF has had their own experiences and as this blog shows many were not good. Many were very painful and confusing and in some ways life altering. I am happy for those that had good experiences at LFF but I think that it is important that those that didn't to have a place to express their feelings. I firmly believe that by putting their feelings out there to the universe is a health way to move beyond the pain and confusion.
It is true that LFF is heavily bashed at this site but I don't see anything wrong with that. It is in many ways holding them accountable for their actions which I don't believe they have been on their own. They haven't issued a public apology. They haven't changed to of their shadier practices - like the tithing which is so very extreme - basically taking 1/4 of your income.
And as to the anonymity - maybe we are afraid of our safety if we put are names or maybe we are just a tad embarrassed that we were taken in by a cult in little ol' Pullman, WA that somehow got us all believing the Christ was gonna only walk through the front LFF door when He returned and that only the Bardens/Vances had the admittance list for the rest of us to enter.
Dear ML99 -
Thanks for clarifying your statement. It makes sense to me how you interpret what I said in that way. It's interesting you've targeted tithing as something to discuss. Luke 18:10-14 is a great passage. I don't think I've ever been called a Pharisee before - I tend to identify with the dude shredding his clothes and crying out 'GOD - I'm a blasted wreck!'. I appreciate your rebuke, but I feel like you're totally missing what I'm saying.
My actual giving is between me and God and it might be less than the LFF tithe and it might be more. I'm hung a bit on Occam’s razor to discuss this issue with you, because if I tell you how much I do actually give, I sense you'll accuse me of spiritual pride. I give because I love to give, not because I feel obligated or bludgeoned from the teaching on tithing I received at LFF. The new testament may not talk about tithing, but it sure does discuss money. I see that all of my earthly possessions are not my own. I also see the PRINCIPLE of giving clearly portrayed throughout the bible.
It’s the principles and heart of the teaching from LFF that I’ve found true. I support sponsor children because I see the heart of caring for the poor. I support missionaries because I see the principle of supporting those building the kingdom. I give to my local church because I see the heart of those “who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel”. And lastly, “I’ll show you my faith by what I do”.
If you want to get our swords out and into a sparring match of scripture with me, I would love to go a few rounds with you, if that’s your thing …here’s my e-mail: edrivdahl@hotmail.com. We can post the results in a future thread.
BTW – I am not receiving any ‘atta-boy’s’ from anyone at LFF for anything I’m saying here. It’s been months since I talked to anyone at the church. You accuse me (Maybe not directly, but it’s the most straight-on inference I can conjecture) of saying things that aren’t completely honest and true as some sort of‘Brown nose’ campaign. Who the h*** do I have to impress? Last I checked, I'm not on the leadership ladder at LFF. If I have to believe all these horrible things happened to you, then brother, you better get on board and believe that these things are true and honest in my life. My God, does it frighten you so much that someone might actually love Jesus and still love the people and the heart of the teaching at LFF no matter how right or wrong we presume them to be? Just how deep is your hole in the sand?
Cheers,
e.drivdahl
"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong
to each other."
Mother Teresa
Eric, you are so honest and so real and I am so grateful that you and your wife are doing so well. Thank you for visiting the blog and writing your entry. I have sometimes felt that this is the risk of the blog, that it might hurt those who are truly happy and have no ill feelings towards lff. Perhaps you should quit reading, go and be happy! Really. I love your posts. You seem to have a very solid head on your shoulders and a great heart. So stay and read and respond if you'd like, but one of the truly crazy things at lff was how alone I felt in my pain. This blog helps those of us who were hurt to realize that we were not alone. Trust me, we were told we were. I spoke very openly with pkv about my circumstanes when blatent abuse happened and she is the best actress on the planet, let me tell you. She lied to my face, more than once. I know this, because within hours of talking to her I spoke with two other woman who had the exact same conversation with her about the same exact issue and her words to me were "This is the first time I've ever heard this." I went away from my conversation with her feeling isolated and like I was the problem until I realized that others had the same abuse happen to them and were dismissed by pkv as well as being "the only ones." I realized at this point that I was dealing with someone with no integrity. I also realized that after dismissing 3 of us, there was not much hope of getting anything resolved. Like you said, I did have a choie. And I chose to leave. It was so hard because I had so many friends there. We learned about integrity at lff. How could I stay knowing that a woman at the "top" with the title of pastor was a liar. She was much worse than that. Maybe I will post that story at a later date. I know, I know...go back to her and clarify, right? Maybe I misundestood, right? Wrong. Dead wrong. pkv is a sorry excuse for a pastor. She does not deserve the title. I'm not mad at you Erik for your comments. But please understand that what you know of the whole Barden clan is quite similar to the Wizard of Oz. There is a small insecure "man" (family) behind the big smoke screan. What you see of them is not what is true. I have been in on the private conversations with their "close friends." The way they spoke of people behind their backs. I saw no integrity, no love. I saw self-serving, arrogant, simply mean individuals who knew way too well how to put on a pretty face at the right times. They used people. Those who have position in the community were treated like royalty and those who did not, were not. I know of someone who was specifically told "she has such-and-such position, don't make her mad." It had to do with a situation with their child in school and under no circumstances were they to take the "normal" route of disciipline with that kid because of their parents position. How crazy is that? Too bad I didn't have a high up position on the community, or maybe I would be writing an entry like yours! Shucks. Oh well. We haven't even begun to talk about finances yet. Oh the abuse there. If only those who could, would go to the authorities with that information. There are a precious few who could. I wish for their demise, but I haven't the means to do anything about it. I know some have gone away with good experiences and praise God for that! I wouldn't wish in a million years that my kids would ever attend a church like lff though. (And therefore, why should anyone's kids...thus wishing their demise). I'm not an evil person that way, I just think if it's not good for my kids, then why anyone elses? It's in God's hands though. I think if we knew the percentage of those who had an experience like yours compared to those who are hurt, it wouldn't be a pretty number. Erik, I don't know if you are able to check the "structure chart" from maybe 10 years ago and compare it today (I don't know that one exists now--it's just Vances, period. I believe there is a "puppet" type board of directors. But Vances head it up, so...whatever. Call it a board, it's silly. I've seen what they do with advice. Anyway, take a look at the pastors, CCL's, HCL's, that are no longer there. I think it's safe to say that there was ONE HUNDRED PERCENT evacuation. These were the ones who were close to Bardens and Vances. These were the ones that thought new leadership might bring positive change and stop the abuse. At least that's what I thought, can't vouch for what went on in their brains. Anyway, they walked away, every last one of them. Seriously, ALL of them. Check it out if you don't believe me. These people in leadership were the ones that saw the true colors of Bardens and Vances. Why would they leave???? It's because of all of these reasons on the blog. These accounts people speak of are true, although some of it is obviously embelleshed with emotional flare. Take it with a grain of salt if you must. But lyers they aren't. They have nothing to gain or lose from lying either. I believe the blog is named well. I hope that it saves some from the pain that many of us have suffered. I must agree with you about the choices I had. I chose to stay. I chose to serve man over listening to God and doing what I believed was right, over and over again. For that I am truly sad and have begged forgiveness of God (and others) for not behaving like a true Christian. Intead I followed man and missed God's true calling and plan for so many years of my life. I am on the right path now and have such a peace in my heart that I am doing what God wants me to be doing. I am not perfect, but I am finding my way and falling in love with Jesus now for real. Although PS taught us so much in finding Jesus, it was sometimes yanked back away with condemnation. I'm finding the unconditional love of God that is never taken away, regardless of the numbers in our spiritual notebook and Bible reading chart. I don't keep one anymore, but you know what I mean. It really is about the heart. I'm so grateful for that. I know my relationship with God is real and that there is nothing I can do to lose that. Thanks again Erik. You are forcing us all to think through the reason we are here writing on the blog, and also reminding us that there is a place and time to move on. It has been an enormouse sense of healing for me though to read that I was not alone and I was not "crazy" for feeling the way I felt so many times at lff. I am so glad you are happy and learned good things. There were good things to take from lff. The key was "taking" them and moving on.
“In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.”
Orson Welles (1915 - 1985), The Third Man, 1949
“If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies.”
Moshe Dayan (1915 - 1981)
“Courage is the price that Life exacts for granting peace.”
Amelia Earhart (1897 - 1937), Courage, 1927
Hi Eric- Thanks for your reply. I'm going to try to make this my last post on the subject because there's no point to repeatedly beating the same dead horse.
I know there are some people who have shared on this blog about their hurt and how injured they feel to this very day. I'm not one of them! So your comment doesn't make sense about me wanting you to believe "all the horrible things that have happened to me." I was at times unhappy at LFF but the moment I left my life went from tolerable and boring to super-great and exciting and has been that way ever since. So, I'm not asking for your pity or for your understanding.
And I am truly sorry that I implied that the things you were sharing were less than "true and honest." But honestly your perception of LFF is so radically different than what I'm sure is "reality" that it made me doubt your sincerity and made me ask myself "what rose-colored planet does he live on anyway!" Anyway my perceptions here at "ground zero" are a lot different and I have spent many hours in prayer with God and meditation to try to truly understand the crux of the LFF matter.
So I am not a victim at all and life has never been better and I have never been closer to Jesus in my entire life than I am right now.
My issue about LFF (and life in general) is truth. And truth is important because truth is a reflection of the the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Moreover I love the gospel which is the message of grace and am zealous that as many people as possible come to know Christ through the message of the gospel.
Eternal souls are at stake. And so I am very distressed at what LFF has done to mis-represent that message.
What they have done is very simple and very subtle: They have added just a touch of leaven to the Bread of Life. With their legalistic approach to tithing and other issues they have leavened the message of the gospel in Pullman. And frankly, this makes me angry. And I don't think that it's presumptous to say that God feels the same way about this issue. "A little leaven (legalism, control-spirit, pride) leavens the whole loaf."
Notice the word "little." It doesn't take much to affect the entire thing. It spreads through a congregation like leaven spreads through bread until the whole thing is "tainted."
People aren't stupid. The unsaved know there is something wrong with LFF and don't want any part of it. The sad part is that as a result of what they know about LFF they have decided that they want nothing to do with Christ or Christianity.
What we have in this situation is "spiritual wickedness in high places" and in His time the Lord with bring it down unless there is real repentance (change) soon.
I know that many ministries and men and women of God have tried to bring correction to LFF over many, many years. And I also know that those who have sought to bring correction have simply been "written off" for whatever reason was convenient at the time.
Through a series of "co-incidences" I actually met and spent time with one of the men of God bringing the message. He was living in the Eastern US when God called him as a prophet to the nation. After he got the call he spent 3 months living in a hayloft praying day and night in preparation. This man was lead to Pullman to talk with the leadership there. His message (or even the fact that he had come to Pullman) was not shared with the congregation. When he was done he simply told me "God isn't done" with LFF -simply meaning that the word he had brought was to no effect. He left town. I will testify to this. He was the real thing: A man with a word from God.
Let each of us strive to hear the still, small voice of God and obey. The Whispering God is alive today.
Blessings to all.
ML99
Anonymous 4:30 PM –
Wow. All I can say is I’m blessed by your response. I feel like you have processed the whole LFF experience in a very healthy manner. I sure am not going to defend any one person at LFF because that’s just not the point of why I’m writing. While I never experienced anything of the sort, I think you’ve done the best you can. Matthew 18 is our example for that issue, which I’m sure you followed to the degree you were able. As I’ve said, we are ALL culpable, which lumps pastors and laity in alike. I will say, I am not ‘taking sides’ here (I’ve done enough counseling to know to avoid the ‘he said’ ‘she said’ stuff like the plague), for I still love everyone at LFF and never had to deal with such issues and I love you for your honest response and sincere desire and effort to be a follower of Jesus. For me, it’s all about being a follower of Jesus. You’ve followed Jesus as best you can, and held onto your integrity. I’ll still hold onto mine and uphold my opinion of the church. Flame me if you will, but there’s ‘the rest of the story’ from my point of view. I guess I’ll shut up soon now, as ML99 eloquently states…the horse is dead, so stop beating it. But before I do I thought I would take just a few more whacks to appease the more base part of my nature…
ML99 –
OK, forgive me for wanting to have the last word (you could always post again you know!!!) but I just wanted to respond to what you wrote because it’s getting at the whole reason I started this discussion in the first place…
You wrote: “I was at times unhappy at LFF but the moment I left my life went from tolerable and boring to super-great and exciting and has been that way ever since.” My question is why? Why couldn’t life be super-great and ultra-exciting while being a follower of Jesus who also happens to attend LFF? I guess, first off you have to buy into my argument that there is ‘leaven’ in every church instituted by man. So LFFs’ is of a particular flavor…I say, big friggin’ deal. I can tell you about LFFs’ leaven along with the leaven of dozen’s of other churches I’ve been to. There is a power that is ultimate and complete and that is the power of Jesus to forgive sins.
I like how you say ‘people aren’t stupid.’ No, we’ve been given this beautiful gift of intelligence to choose our path and make a life for ourselves. I don’t see the only hope for LFF, as you claim, to be in its ruin, downfall or repentance of a few key leaders. No, I see it in every individual who has been a part of LFF or is a part of LFF or will be a part of LFF. I see it in these people when they stop bowing to the idol of man and start to be followers of Jesus. It’s pretty apparent to me in what you write that this is the life you now live – as a follower of Jesus. What kept you from living it like that before? I think what you point out about the leaven at LFF is true, I’ve said that in different ways many times (heart vs form). I also think that there was a culture of trying to please and pressure to conform. Let’s just take that and see where it goes…
I have to believe that God’s heart for this church is not destruction or implosion or any other verb you might like to insert. God’s heart is to redeem. His passion is for his bride no matter how bloody and naked and ravished she looks to you. It’s in his people that hope rests. It’s in all of us rising up and saying I’m a follower of Jesus. Would this lifestyle fit perfectly at the LFF I went to? Probably not. But looking back at 11 years of other church experience, it doesn’t fit like a glove much anywhere. People are people and people are sinners with selfish ambition and false motives (oh God, examine my heart!). My God, how we all chortled for favor. I remember speaking on a JCD night. Afterward, PV took the other two JCD speakers and I out for some ice cream. I remember sitting there watching these other two JCD’s look at PV like he was some sort of rock star. Yes, he was the Pastor and Pastors do deserve a healthy measure of respect, but what we did was approaching (crossed into?) idolatry. I remember asking PV after all the chit chat and posturing a very real question…”Why the heck did you choose me?” His response was a revealing one to me. He said he wanted to see if there was anything inside my heart. I hope and pray there was, and is. (Yes, Jesus, I’m still ‘willing’ after all these years!)
Look, if we all lived like followers of Jesus it doesn’t matter what the leaven is. The Whispering God is alive and full of passion for his bride. If we’re followers of Jesus, let us press on to fulfill the high calling and hear His voice! Nobody is going to stand before the Great White Throne for us – our choices are our own. My charge to everyone who reads this (and I hope there’s some current day LFF’ers in the mix) is to BE A FOLLOWER OF JESUS! When we mess up, let us repent and get on with the following of Jesus again.
Best to all,
e.drivdahl
PS – I’m going to be out of touch from the computer this weekend. I’ve really enjoyed the discourse so if anybody else wants to comment/flame/say their bit I’ll try and respond after the weekend.
Apparently Mr. Welles was ill-informed regarding the inventiveness of the Swiss.
Hey Eric,
Been over 10 years for me too since I attended LFF. This is Carl Green and I know we know each other but I am just not sure I have the right face. I believe we may have roomed together for a year with anther Eric. If it is you remember the hours we spent trying to get the answering machine message just right "Carl and Ericx2 are not home, leave a message after the tone, we want to hear what you have to say leave a message this I pray." That song message was sung to the tune of "looking for love in all the wrong places." If I have the right dude I still remember that silly time when life was fresh with no worry or concerns like house, car payments and careers.
I mention that because it is a good time at LFF that I remember. There is always good things and bad things in every church we enter because they are run by humans. I will not try to discredit the emotions wtitten by others on the blog. My experience as a member of LFF is over 10 years old, 89-94, and the majority of them are good memories.
With 20/20 hindsight I can look back and see my experience more clearly than when I was in the middle of it as a young 20 something trying to find his identity. Is there a call in my lfe for the ministry or do I follow my first passion to work with criminals. From my own experienec I know the deeper you became involved in LFF the more that was expected of you, but that is a given in life in general. A lot more is expected from the CEO of a company than a entry level salesman. I worked part time for the church, graduated JCD was a member and was walking down a path that I was unsure of, graduation from WSU.
When I first found the blog I thought it was a bunch of people just complaining about the church but as I read I could see some real damage has taken place. If writing out your pain helps you heal, go for it. I can say from my personal experience I was strongly encouraged several times to take a certain path by different members of leadership, HCL, CCL, PV and so on but maybe it is just me I always felt the final decision was mine to make not thiers.
I never expressed my fear of graduation and the change it would bring to my oversight and I just went with the punches and that is my fault. In the end even if I had I would have still left Pullman because at 35 I can say I do not have the needed discipline to work in the ministry
I am part of the Multnomah County Gang Task Force now trying to take a bite out of crime. People knew I was into the law and criminal justice but I never took the time get any insight from oversight I just graduated, made my move and have been a gang fighter, call sign "Machine", for the past 10 years.
Anyway, Erick if it is you I hope life has treated you well. I finally grew a beard on my chin by the time I hit 30 and shave almost three times a week now. I can still not shave for two weeks and people think I just forgot to shave yesterday. All in all you were ony of the real good memories I had at LFF. If you ever find yourself in Portland Oregon and a thug tries to mug you, let them know your a friend of the Machine, 50/50 they may just take your money and leave your credit cards. On a serious not if you get a chance email me at Verdemachine@yahoo.com.
Hi Eric- You have this habit of repeating points that I've made and passionately preaching them back to me like I'm disagreeing with you! Anyway, there is a lot that we agree on and some stuff that we disagree about. That's ok by me.
I'll try to answer your one question with a simple answer. I have always been passionate about following Christ. I met Him before attending LFF, served Him while at LFF, and continue to walk with Him even more closely now that I've left. But there is a very big difference (and I'm sure that you agree with me about this point also) between serving Christ and serving church. I believe that LFF asked us to serve the LFF organization and some of it's leadership as if that were the same as following Christ.
Therein lies the rub, the disatisfaction, and why I am currently serving Christ outside of LFF. Since leaving LFF and visiting other churches I have not found even one church that has asked me to blur the line between obedience to Christ and obedience to a man or an organization like LFF did.
And so again, as to "bowing to the idol of man" and "heart vs form" we agree on a lot! Hallelujah!
And again we agree. "Amen" lets be followers of Jesus and not a man or a woman or an organization.
Months might go by before I visit this site again because (like you) I'm much more focused on the present and future than the past. So please don't take it personally if you receive no further responses from me.
Best wishes follower of Jesus!
ML99
"that the kids at LFF, who through no choice of their own, were subjected to a very harsh and strict environment. It doesn't take a PhD in psychology to know that not all children will thrive in that type of environment. I am grieved over the PCS kids that I knew from my time at LFF who now I hear have rejected the faith."
Eric, when I first read your above comment I was thankful that someone acknowledged the fact that we had no choice in join to LFF, but I was disappointed by a couple things
1. your stating that "not all children will thrive in that type of environment" What we went through is abuse and a child should never have to thrive in that environment
2. And if LFF was that great why were the children abused, they let you see the LFF they wanted you to see, not the one that we had to live. You may say that we always seemed happy, we were mocked and punished if we weren't.
3. If LFF is that great why is there only one PCS graduate from the years 1980-2000 left at LFF?
4. I am sure I am one of the kids that you are grieving over because I have "rejected the faith" don't grieve for me I am the happiest I have ever been, I am free to be me. I may have rejected the faith in your eyes, but I feel that I have accepted the love that God gives me no matter what.
5. My last point is that for some of us being anonymous protects our family members that unfortunatly still go there, If I say my name my family would be shamed by the LFF leadership.
I know most of us on this blog have had nasty things happen to us at LFF. It's hard at times to grasp why other people can't understand that. I have some thoughts.
First of all, like any abusive home, not all kids get abused. Outside the church setting it's very common in life for this to happen and for those not abused to struggle to understand why the family fell apart.
Secondly, God never says that he will specify where he can meet with us. In fact, in Psalm 139 the psalmist states he could make his bed in hell and God's prescence would still be there. That means that where there is a heart that wants him, God will meet that heart no matter the outer circumstances. But does that mean he supports the outer circumstances? No. Not at all.
If you look at Enron or any other company with financial trouble, it reminds me much of LFF. The leadership at those companies did illegal bad things. But all along there were people who weren't doing bad things who just worked there and had no clue. They lost out because of the crap that the ones at the top were doing. They were affected by it in the end. A higher authority had to come in and stop the garbage, with someone finally speaking out the truth about the actions.
So, I think God met with our hungry hearts at LFF but he doesn't like the abuse that went on and he wants it exposed so people can heal.
Eric,
I am grieving over some of your comments. I know you and Sarah and I know you both are some of the kindest people I have ever met. I also know the level of involvment you had.
Eric, I was much more involved. Got to the CCL level and also spent many hours personally with Vances, Bardens, etc, in their home, with them on vacations, etc.
I guess the thing that grieves me the most is after you left the things I witnessed and the depth of feeling I had for LFF. I knew God wanted to make some changes but LFF leadership refused to make them. I can tell you that numerous pastors in that church and other leadership tried their best to make those changes happen.
Eric, I grieve at times, at times I am angry, at times I am appalled at what I witnessed and the things I saw others go through. It wasn't what I thought it was at all when it came to certain leadership and how they treated those under them. Yes, there were some good ones but the bad ones who say they love but never truly act on it are still there.
I have numerous friends who suffered the worst who don't even participate in this blog.
All I ask is that you not judge those who write here. As a former leader I witnessed so many of the things people are sharing on here. I wish they weren't true, I cried my guts out when I left because there were times I loved so deeply everyone there.
The church you left was not the church it became, if that makes sense. There are still people I care about there but most of them have moved on. And by that I mean several hundred.
I am blessed at your generous heart. You actually took the bible principles and live them. You would be shocked at how much a church leadership could preach that kindness/generosity and yet live as far from it as possible. Please keep showing Jesus like you do, and pray healing for those of us who are somewhat shaken to the core from what has happened to us and those we love.
It is not really accurate to say that your marriage was the only one not "arranged."
There were/are different levels of pressure in the arrangements, some had a nudge, some should feel that truly their marriages were arranged in every sense of the word.
We have been happily married for over 2 decades, and they tried to break us up, they in no way arranged our marriage. I also know of others.
There are also many cases of one spouse sweeping the other off their feet in courtship, and the leadership more or less endorsing it, but not arranging it all.
Just so you know, your experience was by no means isolated.
FYI all - tithing is NOT an LFF doctrine! It is a BIBLICAL doctrine. I tithed 25% at my former church and was blessed by God for it. I was blessed by God for continuing to tithe at LFF. LFF does not have a corner on the truth, contrary to their opinion! I agree there were great things about LFF, things that I also benefited from. However, there is an obsession with conforming to an "extra-biblical" culture, created and perpetuated by leadership, that I believe is a large part of the problem. Because I came to LFF already a strong and established Christian, and couldn't in good faith buy into everything and fully embrace that culture, I was forever an outsider. I think that Eric D. was just such a natural fit -- good-looking, nice, successful, popular type guy, that he didn't face those issues. Also, he wasn't there long enough to experience the hurt and pain of putting off his own goals in life -- this was (and probably still is) a large part of the problem). Staying at LFF simply out of fear, or staying because following what you believe to be God's will for your life that doesn't include life-long membership at LFF, is I think a big part of the struggle many people have. And this is where I feel leadership is in error -- people should be encouraged to find God's specific will for their lives, and not feel it can only be in being a member of LFF. Some people may actually be called to be brain surgeons, Pastor Phil!! (remember that illustration -- the poster falling off the wall??) Keep all the good stuff, help people be established in the faith, but don't enslave them to a narrow, restrictive view that you can only be a strong, established, productive Christian at LFF! God calls us to MUCH MORE than that!!!!
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