Criticism vs. Rebellious Spirit
This was sent to us via email. We thought that it might provide a good discussion. We had so much drilled into us about "not touching the Lord's Annointed" and having a "Critical Spirit" or a "Rebellious Spirit". If you read some of the other books (eg. Twisted Scriptures) you start to realize that these are key phrases used to control. Does God give us discerning of spirits? If so, how do we know when we are being discerning, or when we have a critical spirit?
DPR!!!
From "The New Mystics" by John Crowder:"It is important not to adopt a rebellious spirit, and to remember that our battle is not against flesh and blood. Yes religion is a foul thing. But 'religious' people are often just wounded Christians seeking identity and comfort in the wrong places. To criticize the old guard is often a sign that we are still operating out of rejection, and somehow needing their affirmation rather than the Lord's. Truly mature Christians, who have overcome insecurity, will see people beyond the veil of their religious bondage and empathize with the hurts that landed them there."
11 comments:
I am reposting some of the comments in a different section because they really have nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
Please, if you have something you really want to say then email it to the email link and we will post it. Thank you for your patience.
DPR!!!
It seems that honest criticism should be met with honest reflection. I think the easiest way to tell if you have a rebelious spirit is to look at your motives. Why are you sharing what you are saying? Is it an honest desire to help others? Or is it a chance to air dirty laundry just to make others look bad and yourself to look good? I work in a place where I can see many problems with the way that things are run. I am not in a position where I can really change any of them by my actions. I know some people I work with can get really negative and grouch about the way things are run and it is easy to join in. But, in the long run, it doesn't do any good. In fact it just makes everyone feel worse. On the other hand, our first priority is to the customer. They are our raison d'etre! If I see something that is a dis-service to them, it is my obligation to share my concerns with the people that can change things. This can be taken as being critical, especially if the person I am sharing my concern with has a personal interest in the service we are discussing. People take things personally, even when they aren't meant to be a personal attack. I think it is human nature (fallen).
Many people on the blog have shared personal hurts from specific people and we have all brought a request for change from a church that we have all loved at one time in our lives. Many now, couldn't say that they love it, because it caused such pain in their lives. That is too bad. I can't say that I hate the church or the leadership. I have a love for what I learned about God at LFF. Yes there are many bones I have had to spit out, but an honest personal relationship with Jesus is something I will never regret. I also have a love for the people at LFF. I love the people in leadership. I don't agree with how they are running (or how they ran) the church, but I still love and pray for them. I love the people who were my HCL's and CCL's. I know that they really cared for me, and I hope they still pray for me too. God is big enough.
I pray that through all of this LFF can rise to be the light on the hill that we all always hoped it would be. That it would be a beacon of Truth that would point people to God.
Amen!
John B.
**how to forgive and forget?**
i am sorry for your pain. you've been through a lot. but i'm glad you know that some of it was from your own choices. that is the beginning, i think, of being able to forgive. the bulk of it, for me, has been to put my trust absolutely in God. to believe that He has walked beside me through every step of my pain, like that old "footprints" poem. I can't believe that He planned everything i have been through - i was abused for years by a stepfather and it shaped who i was for a decade after my mom divorced him - I know God doesn't intend evil for His children. but He was there with me, holding me through the evil that another thinking, choosing, sinful human put upon me. i have to believe that if there wasn't something God wanted me to learn from that time in my life, He would have delivered me from it. isn't that what we've heard so many times? that tests and trials and fires come for a purpose - to refine us? i think that in order to forgive the purveyors of those fires, we have to believe that there was something that God wanted us to gain from the experience. God is the One we have to hope in. look at who you are today. you are stronger. you are still with the man you love. you have convictions. who you are today was created, in part, by what you experienced (even the bad) at LFF. if you think about it, you sould be able to find some reason to be grateful for that.
forgetting, though...well that's a different story. sometimes God does grant us divine forgetfulness. i'm so thankful that i don't remember half of what i did in college. that's divine forgetfulness. well, it's probably more of the influence of pot, but...divine forgetfulness will suffice. =) but i remember all the things my stepfather did and said to me. twenty years later...some things still echo in my mind. and if i dwell on him/the past, i feel the pain afresh. the trick is not to forget, it is to not dwell. seek God for what He has for you each new day - THIS is the day the Lord has made! rejoice and be glad! i know you've been through even more pain since leaving, but again, you must put your hope and trust in God. there is a reason for everything, if we will continue to seek His will and His 'big picture'.
that's a lot of blah blah blah but i hope it helped...
The person who talked about how they confessed and was shamed for it shows that things haven't changed. The new leadership ois the same because they are the same people. Why doesn't everyone get that. Yeah therden's are gone, but when I was in college they weren't the ones that called me aretarded christian. That would be the Senior Pastor now.
To the person who felt ostracized for their activities before marriage, I have to share some relatable things I have been contemplating since your blog entry.
I totally understand what you mean about being condemned for something you did. That type of thing happened to me many times at LFF but here is one that makes me laugh now because it is so extreme. However, at the time I was depressed and hurt over it.
During college, I went home to visit the family, during the summer. I had stayed during the summer to “grow spiritually” – I was really afraid I would fall away from God if I didn’t. Really silly, since I was raised a Christian, but oh well. My family was so worried about the fact that I wasn’t dating that they set me up with someone. Now mind you, I was never alone with the person because two of my siblings were there. I really didn’t even get to talk to my “date” because we were riding on separate recreational vehicles. I did discover my “date” was a Christian but not an LFF version. There was no physical contact whatsoever. But it was still a “date” of sorts.
I cried the entire way back to Pullman, I was so full of condemnation and fear of what my oversight would think. So, I didn’t talk about it for awhile. But that about killed me too, with the teaching at LFF about being open, honest and transparent. Finally, I did talk about it and as I feared I was almost kicked out of JCD’s and was heavily condemned for both the date and then “lying about it” – in other words not coming clean immediately. Even though there was no apparent “sin” involved I must have lead the guy on, etc. I did not. The whole thing was quite painful.
Needless to say, you weren’t the only ones who struggled to stay pure before marriage - many people did. Several friends I have were told on their wedding day that “They might not get to be married” because of similar reasons to yours or because they didn’t do some service act that the leadership wanted. I can’t imagine that! When I think about those kind of threats and the ramifications on the families involved, the money dished out by parents, the torment to the bride and groom on that “happy occasion” it makes me sick!
The truth of the matter is that to this day, I do believe that God does have standards or this world would be run by chaos and fear. But I believe that God sent Jesus knowing we can’t make those standards. The Pharisees (religious leaders) in the New Testament acted the same way as the people who condemned you. They brought to Jesus a woman who had committed adultery. Jesus never said it was ok for her to do those acts. But he didn’t condemn her either. If she had been at LFF she would have been yelled at until she was sobbing hysterically (likely in front of several people). She would have been ostracized until she “truly” repented. And then she would have been on a trial period (perhaps the beginners class all over again) just to earn her way back into favor. Even then, they would always keep a watchful eye.
But Jesus didn’t hold any of that against her. I believe he looked even deeper into her love hungry soul and met that need first, with acceptance and love and then told her to sin no more. He didn’t pound it into her how bad she was, or how she should have confessed and repented right away (and at LFF a good blithering sob session signified true repentance). He loved her. I know God saw through my hurts and insecurities that led me into many sins (some of them repeatedly) and watched me finally receive his love so deeply they weren’t a struggle anymore. I still believe if he can reach me that deeply that I shouldn’t have to worry about trying to change myself because focusing on his love is really what easily changes me and brings me hope.
Well, from one “sex sinner” to another, know you are loved. There is almost no person in the world who hasn’t messed up in that area in one way or another. And for the record I have heard lewd sexual jokes from the senior pastors’ mouth and some of my friends caught one of the pastors doing something very strange in a bride’s room after a wedding and making jokes about the wedding night. I think they are being two faced at best to act self righteous in front of the majority but then act disgracefully behind the scenes.
I'm so thankful that we got married on the weekend of the marriage retreat by Pastor Jay Becker (who was in the process of leaving). All the 'holier then thou's' were gone. At the time it sucked because it didn't seem like we had as many people at our wedding as most (because everything was about popularity) but looking back it is an incridible blessing to have those who truely loved us be there.
I still got "the card" from Pastor Kari with the brides prayer, and I still got the "word of knowledge" by the members that were there...which that pisses me off because most of it they were telling me that I didn't "submit to Andrew enough" and used examples of planning the wedding!!! HELLO my hubby's not gay he didn't care about flowers and ribbons etc, he cared about me and our marriage commitment :)
Anyway, I know I'm not we're not the only ones who struggled before marriage, some who were held up with high regard by the leaders and who were used as examples in front of the whole church about purity when engaged, weren't all that pure...but they were smart enough to keep it to themselves.
I just hope one day we are able to let go of the pain enough that we can enjoy looking at our wedding photos and video.
Pastor Jay is married to a Barden. Just thought you should know that before you start thinking people are on your side.
To the person who felt ostracized by the leadership at LFF for prematerial sex I am very sorry what happened to you took place. You confessed your sins to your oversight and in turn they talked with thier oversight and it should have stayed there and not have been spread among your peers. Everyone involved in that leadership chain should be ashamed because they knew what type of personal damage that info could cause.
I dont know you or who your HCL was at the time but I am sure they were not out to destroy you but it seems no sensitivity was given to your situation. Asking you to step down from JCD's is very delicate because if your time as a JCD was like mine, we were all friends. It would be normal for the other JCD's to wonder what happened, ask questions and speculate.
If I had a say in your situation which did not because I was not there I would have brought you in closer after you confessed as you probably had many mixed feelings that good mentoring could have helped. Repentance or true repentance I have discovered is not a quick confession, all is forgiven let just forget about it. For myself I have seen it takes time. I can stop the behavior but the desire to continue is still there and if not ministered, mentored or whatever else you want to call it, that desire festers and the behavior begins again.
To me your confession was not only a cry for forgiveness but also help and it seems that more focus was placed on your sin than your continued walk with Christ. The fact you confessed shows you felt what you did was sin but the outcome that took place was so much different that what could have took place.
God does not hate you and he forgave your sin before it took place. People on the other hand are jus that, people. Like I said if it was up to me the focus after confession should be placed on your continued relationship with Jesus to bring you closer where you could have grown from the experience.
I feel for you because like you I had many close friends at LFF and I am sure many are still there. The difference is I live in another city as an exLFFer and dont see any current church members who may or may not be whispering behind my back or yours. When I was there we had a HCL who left the church but still lived in Pullman and I remember at a members meeting being told why he had to leave, what he did etc and to keep my distance. When I saw him at Fantastic Sams to get a hair cut I had to speak to him to see how he was. I remember I told my HCL about talking with the exLFFer and they were concerned that I was ok and I thought it very strange. It was like he was a disease that would spread on me if I talked with him, nonsense.
I too find myself from time to time longing for the good old days with all my old friends but those days are gone. I refuse to beleive that my best days where over 10 years ago as life is what you make of it and it can and will get better or not.
It is nice to belong to something that we see as bigger than ourselves as it can give us purpose and drive. In the end a church is an organization with thier own rules and regulations that are not always fairley administered.
The God I know is not waiting to punish me or you with a big bat. Leaving LFF is not a sin but a choice. To stay at LFF and be a part of LFF is a choice to live life the LFF way. I just could not do that. We were taught the wheel theory if you remember how we are at the center and each spoke was a part of our life and how God should be at the center and each spoke a reflection of him. How easy it is to put LFF at the center and have it involved in every part of our life. It took me a while to believe it but people that go to other churches are saved and living a very happy life with God.
You had prematerial sex and confessed your sin. Dont confuse Gods forgiveness with mans acceptence. The prematerial thing may have excluded you from inner working of LFF and being a JCD but it never took you away from recieving Gods love and forgiveness.
Do whatever you have to do to get closer to GOD. It sound to me that your anger at LFF is preventing you from doing that. Right or wrong anger is anger and will eat you up in the end. I have seen happen more times than I care to have seen. If you are wary about new churches and talking with a Pastor about what has happened to you maybe a secular counselor can help. They wont judge you and will see things from a much different point of view.
LFF is just a church that consumed many of our lives. Take responsibility for what you did, no more no less, and get help to let the rest go
to the person who stated that jay becker is married to a barden...i am personally offended by that...i grew up in the church as a kid and i personally would like to say that the one person that i knew the most was tami becker...she was one of the nicest people to me...to the kids really...everyone loved her...she didnt judge us or anything...so to say that he was married to her...well dont fucking group her into the family...everyone is there own self and that doesnt mean that she did the same as others...to me she will always be a good memory and i wish her well and wish that i still got to see her more often then not...and i am still good friends with there daughter who was in my class....dont judge one just because they are part of a family....or you would hate me because technically i am the "black sheep" of my family...yet i still receive all the love from my parents because they didnt just follow everything that was "taught"...they raised us how they believed God told them...i feel that amidst all the stuff that happened and the bad memories that i am still loved by God...that is the reason i still love him...Christianity is not about what we can do for others or God ...its what God has done for us...no works, no paperwork, no chains of command....i believe accountability is important, but if you dont "confess" something to someone it will not be the end of everything...yes i was hurt by leadership, yes i saw wayyyyy to many of my friends crumble under much worse than i feel and actually that is my biggest hurt, but i also see the good from being raised in a good family...our parents did the best from what they know...if they realize more now...more power to them and i hope the kids dont hate the parents, which i dont believe they do...i hope people take the good from what they know...and heal the way they know for as long as they need...grieving is part of the process of death...but there is still joy to be found even in the hard times....one still has good memories of a passed loved one even in the most excruciating pain that they feel with a loss...we are human and that is meant to happen...everything that one feels should not be discredited by others for it is real...those who still attend should not be judged, thinking that they dont "see the light"...my parents still go there and i know their hearts are pure in there actions and involvement...i know they are making what they do a better place...and no they are not in leadership nor have ever desired to be, they are not there 24/7...but i believe what they do has had an impact...especially on the kids that are there now...please dont judge them for staying...please dont judge me for leaving....its a part of life...live and let go...
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