the Blogs Impact?
This Blog Is Having A Positive Impact. Has anyone noticed that the pictures and text related to the Karl and Sherri Barden have been removed from LFF's website? In fact, I did a quick check through the whole site and could find no mention of them and no links to the new "church" in Port Ludlow. A number of people have noted here that the Vances have been monitoring this blog. If you (Phil and Kari) -- or any other LFF leaders -- are reading this comment, I must commend you. You have taken a small but important step toward separating yourselves and your congregation from a very unhealthy past by removing the website material about the Bardens. I encourage you (the current LFF leadership) to take more courageous steps in the same direction: Dissolve the heirarchy that seeks to invade and control even the most intimate details of your attendees' lives. Trust that God will do the work of transformation in each precious individual that no human structure can ever hope to achieve. Open your leadership to true accountability by adopting a congregational structure in which the whole community of faith is made aware of all details of the operations and finances of Living Faith -- and can participate fully in the decision-making process at every level. Trust the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, as expressed in the gathering of believers, to move the congregation in directions that are truly God-honoring and faithful to the life and ministry of Jesus. Be courageous in persevering along this portion of the path -- even if it means that the ties of this congregation to the Barden/Vance family are ultimately called into question. There is a strong perception in the Pullman community and throughout the broader networks with which LFF is connected that LFF exists -- and has always existed -- largely to fund this particular family and its close associates. True congregational accountability may mean that you must be open to the possibility that a fresh start for LFF means doing everything possible to changing this perception -- including the departure of current leadership, or at the very least an opening of the books so that the congregation and the surrounding community can learn "where the money went" over the years. Do not be afraid. God will honor such courageous attempts at repentance.Loose yourselves from the questionable standard of tithing which causes the leadership and the congregation to appear to be (or to be) in the service of money rather than the service of the Kingdom. Trust God to provide the resources needed to achieve the Kingdom results that God seeks in your congregation and the Pullman area.End the enslavement of your people to a church schedule (Saturday work days, endless meetings of various types, etc.) that keeps them in bondage to self-doubt, insecurity and self-focus. Trust Jesus to be present in his people as they become salt and light in their everyday worlds. When their time is consumed by church events, pastoral control is at a maximum and the effective ministry of the people in their daily lives is at a minimum. Reach out to all of the people who have been truly hurt and abused by leadership practices over the years which produced the fruits of bitterness, shame and suffering. Love your flock enough -- both former and current attendees -- to humble yourselves and ask for their forgiveness. This blog contains ample material with which to start as to the types of behaviors for which forgiveness is needed. Involve the Bardens themselves in the task. At the very least, write a general letter from the Bardens, the Vances and other current paid staff to as many former attendees as you can possibly find. Tell them that you regret both the sins of commission and omission. Humble yourselves in this manner and God will lift you up. It is important for the healing of thousands of people whom you once professed to love. Do it for them. Do it for Christ. Do it for his Kingdom. Be strong and of good courage. You can do this. It will take time and perseverence, but you can move beyond a past that binds the congregation to a future of freedom as servants of God's Kingdom in Pullman and beyond. 8/18/2006 2:15 PM
46 comments:
You obviously didn't look very hard. http://lffmtc.org/articles.asp?article=417
In addition to the above, please destroy completely the files that document sins and perceived sins so that a person's past will never be held up to them as a threat again. Along those lines, please seek out wisdom and understanding for what confidentiality means and how to avoid the hurt of needlessly exposing sin that has been repented of.
Sorry, I didn't see any change in the LFF site. The Barden's are still there. Look under "about" and then look under "founding pastors". I know it is wishful thinking, too bad it's not true. Still we can hope!
nope... no changes in the site
but... just a plug... i don't think I would find it inappropriate on the website of any church to find info on the founding pastors.... not trying to start a fight... but let's be reasonable... none of us would have a single problem reading about the founding people at our current church or another....
no body has changed that LFF website much anyway... there is lots of outdated info on it... i don't think we need to bother with discussing it...
there are so many deeper worthier items I would rather read and comment about
To the poster from 08/18/2006 3:27, those were destroyed years ago (w/ in 5yr) OLD NEWS. | 08/20/06 5:42 nailed it.
9/01/2006 doesn't seem to get it. I want to know - do they still keep written files on peoples confessions? What is confidentiality anyway? what is meant by "(w/in 5yr)"?
No, they do not. "w/ in 5yr" means "within 5 years", for people who don't know shorthand. Confidentiality was promised within ministry circles when you enrolled in GGs. It is an extremely common practice in medium-to-large churches to track and share counseling info among departments. All this was lined out in the intro notes in your GG notebook (go check if you like).
All this is all a moot point since written or electronic counseling tracking is now banned per church policy. All council is now done one-on-one, and no records are kept.
"no records are kept"
I find it hard to believe that LFF would just all of a sudden decide to stop keeping files on people. How else would they use your past sins and behaviors as manipulation against you?
I shredded my gg notebook with glee and pitcher of margarita long ago!!
On a different note - stating something like "that's why you are bitter and alone" to an anonymous comment is rather bitter in itself, don't you think?
While I do believe many of us that attended and became involved at LFF as adult made the choice to be there(in the beginning anyway), we also have the right to now question what happened while we were there. This includes how we were treated and what exactly was recorded about us whether it was written by us or discussed with our HCL.
We will be editing posts that are inflammatory. Please don't flame!
DPR!!!
Almost any large organization keeps a file on its members just like this website. I attended LFF in the early 90 and remember the church was huge. Not saying it is right or wrong because I wrote many reports on people, but LFF is a large organization. That fact they are a church is what gets people mad. This website or any other gets info about you to see how they can better serve you. They were doing the same at LFF but I know it does not come across that way. Everytime we hear the word file about us we assume the worst. Did you really think that when you talked with your home care leader that info would live and die there. If the situation was difficult wouldnt seem proper for that person to ask help of another above them. We do that in any other large organization, if cant help you let me get my boss and they cant, they get thier boss and the whole event is recorded. Many large churches do just what LFF does in regards to records keeping. If you dont want a file on you go to a very small church and they still probably will have one. We live in American and their are hundreds of files on every citizen on different subjects, what do think your social security number is used for. One reason why the files are kept secured but in this case they were not is that most people can not handle the truth that a file is kept on them in any fashion or form. When I was a member new people with the guts would ask Pastor Karl or Phil about the file system and I witnessed myself each time Pastor Karl and Phil not deny the fili system they had but explain it. Ask Pastor Phil now about the file system on people and doubt he will deny it when it was open knowledge between 1989 and 94. When it comes to gathering info on a person quickly, LFF is as good as any large business. Wouldnt any large church or organization keep a file on its members, just think about with some logic without emotion for a minute. Of all the things that LFF can do or has done this is the one piece that makes perfect sense to do.
AMEN
I don't think the issue for most is that there are files. Its the content of those files that is a cause for concern.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who assumed my conversations with friends/HCL's would be confidental. It's a trust issue. Churches should not compare to typical businesses, unless it is your place of business. My personal life with Jesus and my sin confess to people or not are the business of me and God only. If they are truely a bible believing church then they should allow their members to become free from their pasts, not keep them written down so that higher ups may know what is going on and use that information to judge. If they are truely teaching about the love of God then they should do as God does and cast our sins to the sea, never to be remembered again.
I'm not saying all of this because I am ashamed of my past or because I fear anything that is written about me. Its the prinipal, its the decitfulness about the files. If you went to your employer and asked to see the file they had on you, they legally have to show you...dare you ask the leaders of lff and you'll either get denial of its existance or as pastor Kari likes to use often "holy anger" raging against you.
You are wrong. You can't expect to be able to share with whomever you please and then expect to have complete control (especially over years and years) over who knows what about you! If you truely want to ensure that nobody knows your deepest, darkest secrets, then don't tell anybody.
There is no trust broken. Just unreasonable expectations.
You can disagree with me if you'd like, but I am not wrong
these are my feelings toward the issue, and I know I'm not the only
one who feels this way. If the files aren't something that you have
a problem with then that is okay. Just remember that this place is for
those of us who have left LFF, a place to share with others about our
real experiences there and how those experiences affected us. Please don't
come here to try and stir up fights with people. No one is wrong in
feeling the ways that they do. No one is wrong for leaving there for whatever
reasons they had. This place is to expose the TRUTH about LFF and the TRUTH
is that there are files about every member and that those files contain
information that many would not feel comfortable with its contents.
When you grow a friendship with someone, you don't expect that they are going
behind your back and repeating everything that you say. LFF lures young college
student in to make it appear that they are going to have all sorts of friends and
tons of fun. Friends share with each other, what most college students get however,
is a false friend, someone who is reaching out to them only because they were assigned to,
someone who's purpose is just to get you saved and "plugged in" and then the next level
of leadership will take over.
Sure by the time I was in CAT and JCD's I knew very well that when I talked to my mentors
about stuff, that they'd share some with their mentors, by then you are so wrapped up in the system
and you have been brainwashed to be open honest and tranparent that you feel condemnation if you haven't
confessed anything to your leaders in a few days. You get put into such a parent child relationship with
your mentors, you are required to get "confirmation" to do anything. If you sign up for JCD's you are
turned into their slaves as they think they are training you to have a servants heart, they get into every
aspect of your lives. Nothing is secret, not even your deepest darkest secrets that you don't want to share
you just can't, the manipulation is so strong. You grow to need their approval and so many will fish for anything
possible that could be wrong with them spiritual or the like just so that they can have a chance to be mentored to
and to grow to be more like their leaders to are most like god.
Maybe your experience wasn't as bad or as deeply personal, maybe you're still a member there and are just
trying to cause a fight on this blog, I don't know. But I do know that there are things in my file that are
of no ones business. It's nothing that they could use against me now that I am away from that place, their spell
has been broken, but it's still there none the less. Its not the stupid file, it the entire raminfication of what
that file represents, it's the feeling of never being able to fully detach from there because you know they still
hold some power by keeping those documents.
Please above poster....don't bother responding to this with condeming comments, just don't bother. You're not going
to tear me down. I won't let people tear me down any longer.
I agree with much of what the last post said. It wasn't that there was files - it was how they were used. I have friends who specifically asked for confidentiality on some issues and the next day people would be coming up to them and commenting on what they had shared in confidence. Not cool. I wasn't aware of paperwork or files on me until I had been there a couple years. My HCL's were mortified when I found out. I know it became common knowledge later on but it wasn't for a long time.
The other thing that bothers me about the files is how people got misrepresented and boxed in. Writing can never share the person's entire picture and the person writing it can slant it is a way that isn't at all what you mean. Then the people reading it get an impression of you that they won't let go of and it haunts you for a long time.
I understand what poster 9/6 11:46 is saying. If I was in lay leadership (and face it, almost all of them were)I would want help from people who have done this kind of ministry before. I was a GG guide, a Cat counselor, JCD support, etc... I know that I was clueless when it came to ministry. That is why we all started going to oversight with all of the things that come up when you are honestly trying to minister to someone. I have written my share of reports that I am sure went to HCL's, CCL's and Pastors. Most of us assumed that those reports were to help the "sheep" and not to manipulate them. We didn't ever dream that these reports would be used as a bludgeon.
I can honestly say I don't know if they still have a file on me. It really doesn't matter to me. I never committed a felony (or even a misdemeanor) so anything that they have on me is probably past the statute of limitations.
If they try character assasination I am not too worried about it either because the groups I am involved with would not give LFF much credence anyway.
What I get from the other posts is that the real issue is not the files themselves (which is bad enough) but the loss of trust that the files symbolize. As stated before, the issue here is that we loved God and trusted our leadership to really be out for our good. Now we find out all of this and it feels like we have been betrayed. Many of us have lost faith in God and especially leadership (wherever we are). We are working through that. We are trying to come to grips with the whole thing. Please show some Chrisitian love and compassion to eachother. Have patience with us and pray for all of us (not a condemning-spiritual-warfare kind of prayer, but a prayer that we will all find God even in the midst of this).
what is the kind of fast that God delights in? One that released the bondage and set the captive free. Maybe that is the kind of prayer that everyone who ever went to LFF or is presently going to Lff needs.
Ooh! Bondage...I am so into that now ;)
OK, I meant the fast God delights in is the one that releases those in bondage!
Thanks for having a sense of humor!
8-)
jb
Come on! Beleive me I get it! What I meant by saying w/ in 5 years is that I don't know the exact date that it happened. It was some time after the transition to the Vances. But, the closet of files, that once was, is now gone. Shredded, destroyed! It is no more! No PCL reports, No CCL reports, No HCL reports, no GG reports, no CAT reports, no blue notebooks, no BG reports! That's what I meant! Thank you Vances for that!
Thank you Vances??? No. It would be more accurate to say thank you to all the people who persisted in trying to convince the Vances to do the right thing.
to 9/11/06 I'm sorry but you are wrong. I was a JCD after the Vances took over and we were still required to fill out info on the college students we ministered to. Still had to turn in weekly accounts of what the students at bible study said, what services they attended etc etc. Still required to share JCD homework and CAT home work. HCL's still required to write stuff about their "sheep" etc etc.
The files aren't gone, they have been converted to computers, and the vances want you to think they are gone but they are not.
Wrong again. Any accounting that happened during that time was done on a department by department basis. The CAT dept would of course still take attendance (just like any other class), and Bible study leaders should still keep address books on who is coming to their small groups.
The difference is that the central file was abolished. Meaning that whatever paper work was being filled out was not being kept for more time than necessary, and was certainly not being added to any personal record. So for example, your record of coming to a bible study was not filed with the record of your service on Saturday morning.
Currently, there is NO central filing of any sort at LFF. Zero. None. All ministry is done on a case-by-case, person-by-person basis. And it is church policy to NOT keep written or electronic records of personal ministry or shepherding. Things like small group attendance, and service rosters are a basic form of housekeeping, and has nothing to do with the personal files of the past.
As for alleged electronic records, consider this: in light of the lack of updates to the main LFF web site, what makes you think the church has the resources or the manpower to convert thousands of printed records to an electronic database? That would take an IT staff of a dozen people, working around the clock for months!
There are no files being kept, period. If you still doubt, please come visit the church and start questioning random people. Somewhere in there, you would be sure to find someone who would slip up and hint at the practice if it was still going on.
Regardless of past hurts, paranoia is still paranoia. And unforgiveness hurts you more than it hurts the church.
Please, just come and visit and ask some questions. I extend this invitiation to everyone out there: come see us sometime! Good things are happening- the church is growing, people are getting saved, outreach his happening in the community and around the world. Those of you who have left, we would love to see you again. Those of you who have questions, please come and ask them. Services are Sunday mornings at 10:30, Wednesday nights at 7:00, and CCF is Friday nights at 7:30.
I would like an example of how LFF is reaching out. And by reaching out I don't mean trying to save people and bring more into the church. I mean providing services like blankets for babies born into low income homes or visiting a nursing home, etc because when I was there it was just about recruiting.
I deleted the last two because it was the first shots in a flame war. I am sorry if I offend any of you, but I will not allow flame wars to continue. Please keep it civil and try not to piss eachother off!
Yours in spirit,
DPR!!!!
To the LFFer we have all seen God move in the fall. I don't think anyone doubts that. That is not new. We are concerned as to what happens to the newly saved. Are their spiritual lives really what you care about or is it numbers? I was a part of the outreach team for years and trutly thought it was about helping people meet Jesus but really I wanted to look good. I wanted PV's approval. I wanted him to use me as an example as a great evangelist. I think I thought that would get me approval. Taht finally I would be good enough. What is your heart's motive? Truly. That is when we will know that LFF has changed. and how do you treat people that still follow God but go to other churchers? Do you continue fellowshiop? What happens when people do mess up? Does the person feel loved and supported and that there is hope or do they feel like they lost their support group and Jesus? That is where I would know that things have changed or at least you really have a heart for God not just the Fitzgeralds and Vances.
Stacey Hawley
"I was a part of the outreach team for years and truly thought it was about helping people meet Jesus but really I wanted to look good. I wanted PV's approval. I wanted him to use me as an example as a great evangelist. I think I thought that would get me approval."
I'm sorry, but that really isn't my problem, or PV's for that matter. You said yourself that YOU wanted approval, and YOU wanted to be seen a spiritual Evangelist, etc. etc.
If you served for the wrong reasons, then I am sorry. It is good to hear that you are coming to terms with it and are seeking repentance. But don't go blaming PV for your pride and vanity during your college years.
What is your heart's motive? Good question for everyone to answer before God
How do you treat people that still follow God but go to other churchers? We obviously don't run into them as often, but we're still friends.
Do you continue fellowship? See above.
What happens when people do mess up? Does the person feel loved and supported and that there is hope or do they feel like they lost their support group and Jesus? Depends on who you ask. I mess up all the time, and I feel very loved and supported, and also the encouragement to change. Other people run for the door the moment their small group leader looks at them wrong.
That is where I would know that things have changed or at least you really have a heart for God not just the Fitzgeralds and Vances. Again, you seem to be the one with the idolatry issues, not me. When did I say that I lived for the pastor's approval? When did I say I was living a life for works for LFF? Or any other active, serving member of the church for that matter?
Regaurdless of how you feel about your past modivations, always remember that you made a choice to serve. Good or bad motives, you are the one who chose to be there - nobody held a gun to your hear and forced you to scrub toilets. And as recent guest bloggers have pointed out, it is possible to be an active, accepted part of the LFF family without fitting the percieved "mold".
God bless you as we all work out our salvation with faith and trembling. (emphasis added)
I served for ten years and at the time was totally in love with Jesus. I wanted people to know him. I wanted them to know him the way I knew him. I didn't know anything about Christianity until I came to LFF and I gave all I had. But dear LFFER I was told by the Vances and P. Joe repeatedly that I was fat and not good enough. Yes, I believed that JEsus loved me and he told me agin and agian in my Spiritual notebook that I was beautiful but I was shot down by leadership again and again and told I was not worthy.
I wanted nothing more than to be a HCL and serve LFF for my entire life but because I wasn't their standard of beauty or didn't have money I wasn't good enough. I gave up friends and relationships with family members to serve with my whole heart. I loved the Vances and believed in them. But I was never good enough. After 10 years I realized I have so much more to give than I was allowed to there. I have an amazing life now. It is not perfect and I struggle with believeing that these good things can happen to me.
My leadership didn't just look at me the wrong way they told me I was a retarded christian. I was told I was too fat and no one would want to mary me. I was told I was weird. After I did lose weight I was told things might be better if I cleaned my room!!!! My future depended on whether or not my room was clean? My relationship with Jesus?!!!!!! Are you kidding me? This was from leadership. I was serving and was looking to Jesus!!!! He was constantly telling me HE loved me but I was getting shot down by the people who were supposed to be His hands extended. Obviously things were good at times. I thank God for BRent and Trish Wenger!!! They were what leadership should be. THey callled me on things but loved me. NEver threw me under the bus or made me feel like there was no hope.
We wanted leadership to guide us and love us and be therewhen things got hard. The Wengers may have spoken directly but I ALWAYS knew with them that in the end it would be okay. But they were the only ones. Other times I felt like I had been spiritualy beaten and then at my weakest told to stand up and get over it. That it hard LFFER even when you know Jesus is there when other people start staring at you and judging you and know things they shouldn't know.
I know how you feel about LFF because I felt that way once too. FOR TEN YEARS!!!!! Please realize we have real pain. Please read this with comapssionate eyes. Jesus loves me. He thinks I am beautiful and amazing. THink about that when you reply. Please don't attack me. You already have. This is true all of it. If you attack you will just show me that nothing has changed. Stacey Hawley
I am risking personal attack. Who are you dear LFFER?
To 9-18 3:31, I am concerned you may be suffering from constipation of "the bowels of mercies" Please seek treatment.
Things are still the same for PKV....check out the September devotional on the LFF website:
John 1
Wednesday ~ September 6, 2006
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:6-9 (King James Version)
Called To Bear Witness
Back in the late seventies, when I was somewhere around 16 years old, we had a guest ministry come in from southern California. Even to this day, I still remember one of the messages that he preached. The text was John 1. This scripture impacted me then, and it is still impacting me today.
John 1 verse 6 says, “There was a man sent from God whose name was John.” At this point, the man of God speaking on this text encouraged us to put our own name in where the scripture used the name of John. If you are a woman, go ahead and make that change, too. It was a bit scary but I did it. As a young girl I remember saying the ominous words, “There was a woman sent from God whose name was Kari”. As I read on, in John 1, I realized that I have a job to do—I am to bear witness of the Light, Jesus Himself, so that others might believe!
Please take the time to read this scripture out loud, with your name in the text.
Written by Pastor Kari Vance
“A witness is someone who by explanation and demonstration gives audible and visible evidence of what he has seen
and heard without being deterred by the consequences of his action.”
—S. Briscoe, Getting Into God, p.76
----
Arg!!! She gets under my skin and still is promoting her own agenda. Amazing - glad that God is the final judge, Yikes!
Now read the one from PV - what a difference. At least his is kind and caring:
John 8
Friday ~ September 15, 2006
If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free
John 8:31b-32 (New King James)
Do You Know the Truth
In this passage Jesus points out three important byproducts of being in the Word of God. #1 You are a disciple, #2 You shall know the truth, #3 That truth shall make you free. When Jesus spoke this to the Jewish crowd that was around Him, it totally offended them. They reminded Jesus that they were Abraham’s descendants and had never been in bondage. But the bondage that Jesus was talking about was not physical bondage but spiritual bondage – they were slaves to a far greater master -- SIN!!!!!
Unlike the offended Jewish crowd, we must see the power of SIN today. We can so easily become duped into thinking our own way is right and that doing something a little on the edge is okay. It doesn’t control me, so what’s wrong with it? The further we get away from being in the Word, the further we get away from the truth. We need the truth from the Word to expose the lies the devil tells us every day. Jesus tells us later in this chapter that the devil is a liar and there is NO truth in him – so don’t believe him!!!
For some reason we would rather believe a lie than believe the truth. Why? – because sometimes the truth hurts. But the truth as seen in the Word of God will also set you FREE!!!! Don’t be a slave to sin. Let the Word of God convict, refresh and free you.
Written by Pastor Phil Vance
Stay in the Word every day and enjoy being a disciple,
knowing the truth and walking in freedom!
--------
Any Comments?
This is not meant to be insensitive, or to bring to the surface anything that is painful. And if the answer to my next question is yes, then I will shut up and not comment on the topic again.
Did a Vance or Fitzgerald ever say to you directly, "STACEY, YOU ARE FAT" ?
If so, then everything you have written makes sense to me, and I really feel for you. But after spending a moderate amount of time with these people, I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams them saying to any human being "you are fat". Especially in the context of "you don't meet approval because you are fat", or "you won't get married because you are fat."
We all have issues with what other people think of us. But Vances are not Jesus, and pastor's approval are not the measure of our worth to God.
So, once again, did Pastor Phil or Kari or Joe ever look you in the eye and say "you are fat" ?
Leave Stacey alone and believe that someone can have ligitimate hurt feelings!
"...I mess up all the time, and I feel very loved and supported, and also the encouragement to change...."
Hello - listen to yourself! Play Nice!!!
Yes. I was told this to my face.Is houldn't have to tell you that. But anyway. You said you wuold understand so I hope you do.
Fair enough
I don't think what P. Kari says is so bad. It is not bad to identify with scripture. It can be a source of inspiration to help you through the hard times in life. I think that your problem might be the "vessel". If she is bearing witness to the life of Jesus, then judging by what many here have experienced from her, there is no hope of any of us ever knowing Jesus (since we don't meet her criteria).
I know that some of her anger management issues stem from a father who lambasted them for hardly anything at all. But isn't Kari over 40 now? Isn't it time to let go of the anger and see that honey is much more attractive? That is one thing I always got from Pastor Sherri (perhaps why her nickname is honeybee). I know that she loves and cares for me. P. Kari, on the other hand I always felt like I had to be really careful to stay on her good side.
John B.
I guess PV's kind and caring. But confronting sin? What is hurting people and not taking responsiblity for it? Does that scream of integrity?
Stacey,
Sorry to hear that you were treated that way at LFF. That was definitely uncalled for. I was at LFF for a while and I don't remember you as even having been what might be called fat. There were so many people there who were much more "amply endowed", so to speak, than you.I don't know what they might have hoped to accomplish by putting you down like that, or how they might have tried to justify their actions to themselves.
I do, they didn't want us to feel truly good about ourselves because then we didn't need them to help us get our man. Our behavior as "singles" was constantly subject to getting an "unmarriageable" label. And yes, dear current LFFer, you can say all you want about our own choices but you were there and you know pretty darn well that EVERYTHING was about appearances right down to the precious gym floor. I perceive an awful lot of spiritual pride on your part that none of the abuses have shaken you but I guess they wouldn't because you fit right in with all the unrepentent leadership who will NEVER REPENT because of what? Spiritual pride!
P.S. Stacey, I knew you, I loved your friendship, I think you were (and probably still are) beautiful. I'm grateful for your honest comments. Keep on keepin' on!
Thank-you to everyone who responded about what I wrote and I just want you to know that I found a man who thinks I am beautiful and hot and treats me like a princess. So of course they were wrong. but I still ahve trouble believing it.
I also wanted to say the other day I Was watching the previews for the new movie that is going to be about the NAvity and it reminded me of the Christmas and EAster productions. I remeber how fun they were. How cool it ws to get to know everyone. I know that there were messed up things about the productions but we had so much fun. some of my funnest times ever were at LFF.
stacey
Stacey, as a current LFFer, I'm sorry you were hurt like that. I never thought you were fat. You always had a beautiful spirit. I'm glad you've found a good guy.
What is your heart's motive?, To serve Jesus- just like it always has been since I've been saved.
How do you treat people that still follow God but go to other churchers? Whenever I see them, I greet them warmly and friendly, and I'm really glad to see them because I truly miss them. I also keep in touch w/ some of them that I really knew well. I don't judge them for going to another church- either.
Do you continue fellowship? Of course. It's never crossed my mind not to.
What happens when people do mess up? Does the person feel loved and supported and that there is hope or do they feel like they lost their support group and Jesus? Well, I wouldn't know how everyone feels. I have always felt loved and supported when I've messed up, but obviously not everyone has felt that way. I think the church has grown more in grace, but maybe there are others who don't think that way.
As far as what the church is doing for the community... There's a group that makes pajamas for poor kids. Many people are involved w/ the pregnancy crisis center. They give Christmas presents to kids who's fathers and mothers are in jail. Groups visit the nursing homes. When Pastor Phil took over, he had all the home care groups pick something to do for the community, and the deal was that we wouldn't do it in the church's name, but in Jesus' name.
The community often comes to us and asks for help in different areas, and it is given.
As far as files kept on people. I know of none. There are no more HCGs- just small groups where people can choose where they want to go that best match their interests. There are groups that do bible studies, groups that are service oriented, groups for scrapbooking, groups for badminton and playing games. I'm a small group leader, and we don't fill out paperwork on any of our members.
I'm not here to condemn anybody. Just to clear up misconceptions.
Stacey, as a current LFFer, and one who knew you way back when, I wanted you to know that I'm sorry you were hurt like that. I never thought you were fat. You are a beautiful person, and always had a great personality. I'm glad that you've found someone special.
I'll tell you that whenever I see someone who has left our church for another church, I don't judge them one bit. I give them warm and friendly greetings. I've fellowshipped w/ former LFF people outside of the church, and have never told them that they should come back. I do miss them very much, and wish I would see more of them, but I have no animosity or ill-will toward them at all. Even toward the people who I know post here.
I also wanted to touch on a few things in this thead. LFF is very involved in the community now. We have people making pajamas for the poor kids. We have many people involved in the local pregnancy crisis center. People go and visit the nursing homes, volunteer in the community, etc. Back when we still had home care groups, Pastor Phil had each group come up w/ one or two things to bless the community w/. It was all done in the name of Jesus- and not the name of LFF. We also support many missionaries and provide Bibles to another country that can't afford Bibles in their own language.
And as far as records go, the church no longer has Home Care groups. They do have small groups that do bible studies, marriage building, different ministries, sports, scrapbooking, etc. I am a small group leader, and we don't fill out forms on any of our members.
I posted this message a little earlier today, but it didn't show up, so I'm reposting. Maybe it will show up when I repost, lol.
It's been about 2 years since this thread was posted, but maybe you're still reading.
Hi Stacey!
Much love to ya,
- Andy Beyer
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