Friday, October 28, 2005

Thoughts...from the comment box

For me the simplest terms for the failure of the pastors at LFF is incredible arrogance and willful disregard for fellow humans. I believe the these two things have blinded them to the truth about themselves and what they have done. It has led them down a path where they have mistreated people and been part of a huge deception which involved ungodly relationships and the financial/administrative intergrity of the church leadership.

But, they still can't see it. They still don't get it. They still think they are right. They still think they understand and have answered all the people who have tried so hard, to tell them in so many ways, that these two issues have got to change. They still believe they have more integrity than all the rest of us. Even when we have watched and identified, to them, the lies.

There was/is a horrendous lack of humility about who they are and what capabilities they possess. Both the founding and current pastors (this refers to husband and wife teams) have a deeply ingrained belief that they possess more discernment, more wisdom, more skills and more compassion than the rest of the kingdom of God combined. I am not trying to be sarcastic. This is not an exaggeration about what they have stated about themselves. If you were there, you know what I mean.

Unfortunately, most of us were required to believe it, or at least submit to it (since it was not believable) in order to continue doing what we believed was "living for God".

Most spiritual insight, acute intellect, exceptional giftings or acts of kindness displayed by those beneath them had to be quickly quashed or shut down by their harsh criticism in order to keep people down under the "esteemed" roles of leaders.

Not to say encouragement didn't happen. If you were one of the "chosen" or if you were needed for some special project at hand you might receive some encouragement. Remember, I am talking about specific leaders. There was lots of encouragement among peers and friends. It wasn't a totally cold and hard place or none of us would've stayed.

Those with the courage to challenge the leaders or even ask innocent questions were also berated into submission or "squeezed out" of the fellowhip.

Because of this arrogance they never really submitted to any checks and balances for themselves. There were token balances of power presented to the congregation, but we did not know they were only "token" until much later.

These leaders also believed they "loved the deepest and the best" of anyone in the kingdom. Sadly, it's just not true. They were always amazed by the number of people who were hurt in their wake by their callous treatment inputed to those "under" them. They always answered in such a way to make the follower feel like they had sinned by being hurt. "You did not understand me or my heart or my wisdom" or "this is just how ministry training works."

Even though much has changed on the surface at LFF, and these are good changes, the two core issues haven't. The changes that have happened came more in a sense of acquiescing, "let's make it feel better and keep the people here". If these changes hadn't happened they would have lost the whole church at once, rather than the slow trickle now turning into a steady flow.

The amazing thing to me is that God has allowed them to remain blinded, deceived, or whatever word best describes it. They are sincere in their beliefs about themselves, their intentions and their actions. They really believe that we are a wicked web of disgruntled, back-biting, murmurers who don't have any merit and have turned our backs on them in their greatest time of need.

Incredibly, even in my own conversations with them (in the past year), they believe that "they"(LFF)are the only reason people have "become as good as they are" and that LFF doesn't get the "credit" they deserve for having "made these people who were nothing into something." They reminded me that I was included in the being "nothing" until they got ahold of me.

Well, I wasn't a nothing. I was a precious creation of God. A creation He delighted in. I was skilled, intelligent and great with people before LFF. A fallen creature, to be sure, but not one that lacked existence before my LFF experience. I was a Christian before. For those that got saved there, God could have used any instrument to draw you to Him. Know that LFF wasn't the key to your salvation, but His Spirit drawing you to Him was.

I think it is easier to identify what went wrong or is still wrong. But it is hard to put one answer out there for everyone who is hurting. There are many different types of experiences people had at LFF.

You have the PCS kids who didn't have a choice about growing up there. Their experience is very unique.

You have the parents who regret losing those child-rearing years and even some of the best years of their marriage.

You have those in the various mentoring/leadership programs.

You have those who were called "friends" by leadership and slaved for years to gain acceptance of those leadership "friends".

You have those men who were chosen by specific leaders for twisted soul relationships. These relationships warped even the marriages of those men to the point that their wives never fully owned their husbands in the way God intended.

You have those who were never high class enough to be acknowledged seriously by leadership but were valued for their labor.

There is not one pat answer to each group. I'm sure I don't have a complete list here. Some pain goes much deeper than others. Some can still relate to God, some can't. Some can forgive and just move on. Some can't. Some can leave LFF. Some can't. The problems are easy to see, the answers are not black and white. It does all stem from some disregard for fellow humans on some level.

Many of these people overlap into more than one group. These people served so faithfully, so willingly, so sacrificially, for so many years. They honestly loved each other very deeply. Yet they were made to feel they never quite cut it and still had so much sin and immaturity to get out of.

Many people gave everything. Yet these leaders still genuinely believe they have sacrificed more than anyone else. It's not a contest. I'm not trying to say who deserves what accolades. But for so many people to have poured out their lives and still be made to feel that all of this church mess is their fault and the leaders are innocent..... seems like the Bible holds the shepherds more accountable than the sheep.

I also need to say that all the hurt I may carry does not exempt me from my need for forgiveness and the precious blood of Christ. In the midst of the failure of these leaders, I was still a sinner who needed Jesus everyday. Still do. Not all of my problems stem from LFF.

In all fairness, maybe there is more understanding in the hearts of these leaders about what they have done. Maybe they have taken more responsibility before God. Maybe they see how they have treated those He gave them to care for. If this has happened, there will be evident fruit that follows such an understanding. There will be no question in any of our hearts if this ever happens. But, I can only hope and certainly can't stand around waiting for it.

Regardless, I want to live my life treating others with the dignity and respect they've earned just by being His creation. Beyond that to the greater commission, I want my life to reflect the great love He has for them to draw them to His salvation. I still want to stand before Him and hear Him say "Well Done".

17 comments:

Anonymous said...

I can't get over how they won't apologize or at least come out and acknowledge they did something wrong. I can't forgive. I can't forgive people who have no remorse and will not ask my forgiveness.

If they would simply acknowledge they caused all this pain, and ask my forgiveness, that is a different story.

But, they sit and "bury their head in the sand," and refuse to even look at us. We are unworthy of their apology, unfitting to even read. We are the ugly, the broken, those who will never shine on the stage or serve them again. We have no value to them, and our words and hurts and pains go unnoticed. We have become like so many who were not glamourous people, not the lovely...now we are worse.

They may breathe the same air we do and have physical bodies, but they do not have hearts and they are not human.

Anonymous said...

They are the BardenBorg; prepare to be assimilated...

Anonymous said...

well, they have apologized... again and again, but apology means nothing if they truly do not believe they did anything wrong, and if the abuse still continues... the apology means nothing...

the hardest thing in life to do is to forgive even when they don't apologize, even when they don't even believe they are in the wrong...

it's hard, but I have to remind myself that they don't care if I forgive them or not, I mean nothing to them, they likely don't even remember me...
it only haunts me...

however it is so trite to say I have or haven't forgiven them...words mean nothing

How do I know?? If I have, what now?? If I haven't, How do I??

Anonymous said...

yeah
forgiveness does seem like such an "out there" concept.. it is not just words... but, What it it?

Anonymous said...

I can't believe I found this website. Reading your comment is like a therapy for me. I am an old PCSer and for the last four years since I left I have struggled with hatred for LFF and at time my parents. It is has been hard for me to look at my childhood and not get upset at my parents for allowing me and my siblings to be emotionally abused and manpulated by LFF. They were my parents they should have tried to protect us. But then I look at some of my current friend's families and realize it could be worse, they weren't crack head that didn't feed us, they never maliciously abused us, and most importantly they did care about us and loved us. I have learned to hold on to those thoughts. But for LFF that is a different story. I can't really say I wish I hadn't done that(LFF) because I had no choice. And their propaganda is so ingrained in my head I still have a hard time figuring out what I believe. In reading these posts I find myself chuckling, because the things that people are saying about LFF now is what us that grew up there were saying secretly about LFF since we were 12. As for forgiveness I find myself very torn because I think of the "adults" at LFF and say to myself how could you not have known, how could you have been willing to participate in something 12 year old knew were wrong, and how could you not have saved us from a childhood that left all PCSers scarred for life. Something I learned through months of therapy was I wouldn't have been who I am today if it wasn't for my past and to take it away leaves me as nothing and to accept that is the way to forgiveness. And I am making it there slowly.

Anonymous said...

Some definitions of "forgive": to stop blaming, to absolve from payment, ceasing to feel resentment against another for a wrong he or she has committed...when God forgives us, He erases our sin - makes it white as snow - as if it never happened. Alot of people have said they have forgiven LFF, yet if you look at these definitions, and then look at the things those people have said/written in continuing blame and resentment of LFF and its leaders...well, it doesn't look like forgiveness has really happened...maybe they too do not understand the meaning of the word. It is almost too difficult for humans to grasp, because we want justice. We want to see people who've hurt others pay for their sins, whether it be a rapist, an unloving parent, or an abusive pastor. We cannot comprehend pure grace, and yet we are commanded by God to give it as freely as He's given it to us. I'm sure "Twisted Scriptures" has helped some, but "What's So Amazing About Grace" will help much more, in the light of eternity. Just my random thoughts...

Anonymous said...

but then...a lot of people haven't forgiven. maybe here they can work towards that seemingly impossible goal.grace is a amazing. i truly believe that god is the only one who truly understands and is able to give it. in our imperfect humanity we will always struggle.

Anonymous said...

I doubt that any mere man can really tell what will help more "in light of eternity."

Anonymous said...

I wonder if forgiveness isn't a gift of God too. It is not something I can do by myself. I want to make people pay for the wrongs they have done to me (either LFF or in the rest of life). As I read the above comment, I thought that it was really mean to say that people who have resentment haven't forgiven. We have had this conversation before on the blog.

If you don't forget it, have you really forgiven?

I think we all need to remember that we are all at different places on the path. For some of us to say at all "I forgive them" is a major step. It may not be the final step, but hey, let's give everyone grace. Some of the people haven't even gotten to that place yet. Do you know what? That is just fine. When they feel that they can even whisper the words, that is a giant step. When they say they can write it on this blog, that is a superman step! When they can truly release it and not hold it against the people who have wronged them, that is a rocket trip! So, please don't criticize people for where they are. Simply (just) ;-) love them and accept them.

Anonymous said...

I think forgiveness between men and forgiveness between God and man are two different things. Man is completely incapable of forgiving others as God forgave us. We are made in His image, but we are not Him. If we could do everything just like God, what would we need him for? People are incapable of forgetting, therefore we cannot forgive like our God. It was releasing to me to realize this. I can forgive them and still remember the hurt and know that it was wrong and yet it doesn't nullify my forgiveness. People on this blog really seem to be struggling with the fact that they think they've forgiven but still hurt and still remember. Don't be so hard on yourselves, you're putting LFF standards on yourselves - remember LFF standards were higher than even God's standards.

Anonymous said...

I won't forgive until Kari Vance gets down on her knees and begs for it. Her husband and Joe Fitzgerald better be right there with her. Then the whole evangelism department. I don't care about Karl Barden; I was never here when he was. People said things were worse then, but whatever "change" the Vances made was bogus. They pulled that one over on most everyone. They were the ones that screwed me up. Now I want to hear them ask my forgiveness. Something tells me it will not come until Judgement Day. It will be hard for Phil Vance to pretend he doesn't know what his wife is up to then.

Anonymous said...

I used to attend LFF and I guess I'm confused on what the accusations are and how people got so hurt. I agree there were definitly some problems with the way things were run... but can somebody fill me in a little more?

Anonymous said...

Just start reading from the top of the blog. You'll figure it out pretty quickly.

Anonymous said...

Do we really think it would make a difference if they begged our firgiveness? Would it honestly help that much? Hasn't the damage kind of already been done? And since when is our forgiveness contingent upon whether or not it is asked for? I am an ex-PCSer too, and honestly, I forgave them for the simple fact that they don't rule my life anymore. Me not forgiving them doesn't do anything to them. They don't care, I don't go there anymore. It's your choice whether to forgive or not, whether to get over the fact that they won't apologize or not, or whether or not they bury their heads in the sand. As far as I am concerned, I have a life to live and things to do with it besides staying bitter for their attempt to ruin my life. I'm done! They don't own me anymore! It's over! I'm not there anymore! Yes, I still have to deal with the after-shocks of their abuse, but that's up to me to deal with. Kari Vance can stick her head in the sand and swear up one side and down the other that she did nothing wrong and it's no skin off my back. This is my life and LFF doesn't own it anymore! Let's figure out a way to get over this and move on!

Anonymous said...

We need to vent. We are not all able to get over it and move on!!! obviously. Have some grace on those of us who are just recognizing the pain. Hopefully someday we will but not yet.

Anonymous said...

I'm not trying to dis anyone and I do want to extend grace to those who are still healing. My only point is to be careful. We left so that they wouldn't control us, not so we could talk and talk and talk about how bad it was and still be controlled. Hope that makes sense

Anonymous said...

A hurt or a wrong was described to me by a Pastor using the story of the Pearl of Great price, he interpreted the story this way - A clam gets a piece of sand or some other irritant inside it's shell it has no way of getting rid of that piece of sand. Instead the clam produces a mucus that covers that piece of sand to make it slippery as time goes by the coatings of mucus keep covering the sharp edges of that irritant until eventually it is smooth and becomes a beautiful pearl. This process can take many years and the pearl never leaves the clam until we open it up. This is your hurt or irritant it will always be a part of you it could be physical or mental abuse or any other wrong done to you. Each time we feel that hurt we need to go to God and release it. As we do God's love comes and covers that hurt slowly lessing that pain over time. A life time of going to him for his grace, love and covering creates that beautiful Pearl of our life and when we reach that great gate that is what we will present to him. Our pearl, Our Life created by him to be beautiful even in our pain. Realize that he is there for you no matter what. You are his "Pearl of Great Price".