Know The Truth (email)
After hearing (Oct, 2005) about leaders at LFF trying to suppress someones contact with those who have left, this hit me.
What could be a corollary to:
"And you shall know the truth,. and the truth will set you free," John 8:32?
What if you don't know the truth? What could that make that person?
Like the young elephant kept and limited by chaining it to a stake, the lack of knowing the truth when it's older and much stronger keeps it not free. At will the mature elephant could break free but doesn't. The same chain or even rope keeps the older powerful creature from being free but the tether does not represent truth. It represents simple control.
Those who don't know the truth are said to be in the dark and in some cases maybe captive.
"And you shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free".
I have many deep injuries and painful memories from my experiences at LFF.
But though His grace and time, I'm being healed.
LFF is not the first LFF. There are several books written about such experiences.
I'm not trying to minimize the pain you feel.
I don't know how to fix the broken marriages, recover the years of lost family or the abuses done in the name of God.
I've heard the bitter tears of mothers who lost their dreams.
These two sentences don't even scratch the stories of pain and abuses or offer any justice.
But I do trust that God is the final judge and things will be leveled in the end.
Jesus said: Luke 4:18
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed
Jesus came to do more than just forgive of our sins. His healing the blind or feeding the 5000 speak to something more. Those have little to do with forgiveness. To heal the brokenhearted speaks of restoring the heart. At LFF it was the hearts and motives that were often assaulted by the leadership. Since most every person knows their own faults. It's an easy trap to fall into. I see my faults, they tell me I'm bad, I must be bad. Many were held by such condemnation.
So human heart can be broken or Christ wouldn't have said, He sent me to mend hearts. (again Luke 4:18)
Many of you have broken hearts, you came to LFF with them from how your parents did or didn't treat you or you were born and raised there. Maybe your heart was broken through a failed relationship or any of the other deep confusing blows this world offers tender hearts.
"And you shall know the truth,. and the truth will set you free".
"Above all else, guard your heart...
"He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,"
One of many books that have been helpful to me since leaving LFF has been, Waking the Dead. It speaks to the issues of the heart. It might help you put the LFF experience into perspective, correct some of it's doctrines and give you a vision of healthy fellowship.
The Father cares about you. He cares about your heart.
May your heart be tended by the Father's love, may you be healed in His timing and may His truth set you free.
In His Grace
With love to you,
A fellow sojourner
If you would like to dialog about this, please send email to fellow_sojourner@comcast.net
It will be treated anonymously, tenderly and privately, your heart has been burned enough already.
64 comments:
"Waking the Dead", by John Eldridge is a great book, and his other books are great too.
A few years ago he came and spoke at our church and I was really impressed with his humility - obviously not LFF 'leadership' material... ;-)
dB
Are they really telling people not to contact people who have left? I thought that was not happening anymore- is it all of leadership or just one or two? The reason I ask is that when I left LFF I spoke to someone very high up in leadership and they said that they didn't know some of the things that were said at the HCL or CCL or even at the PCL level - they said that everything did not trickle both ways- I don't know if I believe that person or not, but it didn't seem like they had any good reason to lie to me- so I wonder if that type of thing is still going on- and if not does everyone really know these things are being said?
I remember when my wife and I left, it had been circulated that we were not to be talked to or associated with. I've had it confirmed by several true friends who didn't give a crap what leadership told them to do. We saw many supposed "friends" completely ignore us and stop talking to us. We say others tenatively speak to us, but only in terms of "outreach." It was downright comical how fearful many people there are (and were when I was attending the church) of people who think for themselves and speak freely about it.
I can however take some deep, true friendships from LFF, who, regardless of what is being said, will always be our friends. You know who you are, and you have no idea how much I appreciate and treasure that.
Many times I was told to stop contact with all my unsaved friends. Now, let me tell you, my friends I came to Pullman went I grew up with, elementary, middle school and high school, and we all chose to go to WSU together. Regardless of any spiritual choice they might choose to make on their own, our friendship superseeded that, and I would not and will never turn away from that.
I thank God all the time that while I attended LFF, I never got in too deep. I went through GGs, went to homegroups, but never got involved with JCDs or anything higher. I don't think they would like having me anyways, regardless of leaving, since I would be labelled a dangerous, liberal heathen who couldn't possibly even be saved.
To those of you who are true friends, thank you very much. You have impacted my life for the positive, and I am a better person for knowing you. For those still at LFF, thank you for talking to me because you had to, thank you for taking notes on me, and thank you for calling me and meeting me for lunch and all you did, because I hope I made somewhat of an impact on you. Question what you know always, as scripture commands us to, and study the bible from a literary standpoint. Try thinking of things outside of a fundamentalist view. You'll be surprised at the wonders you'll find.
The Truth About Living Faith Fellowship
I’ve been following this blog for almost a month now, and it’s really been an incredible experience for me. It has reminded me of a lot of pain that I didn’t realize was inside me. LFF just kept my heart in bondage for such a long time. And it's been 24 years since I actually attended there!
I did re-take Catechism via correspondence in 1991 or so. I had taken it previously, but I thought it would be a good review. I think it just made me wish I was in Pullman following God’s will for my life, but fortunately a few years later I finally figured out the folly of this world view. The last time I was in Pullman was in 1990 I think it was…
I’ve been listening to a few of the audio messages of “Door of Grace Ministries”. This is the church that was started by the ‘founding pastors’ of LFF. I find fascinating the techniques that they use to set up their new church since they left LFF in Pullman.
One thing I noticed was that they use “Response to Truth records”, just like LFF, which is a form you would fill out to indicate your agreement to the teaching. Their stated reason is so “they can know the heart of those who labor with them”. Uh huh… and if I don’t exactly agree with you, you’ll hold that against me if I want to be in ‘leadership’.
Hearing their voices preach is just eerie. It’s like they’re almost right, but they just slightly distort the meaning of the Bible. They would never see what the do as distortion, but when you need to use a lot of extra translations like the New Living Bible, Amplified Bible, etc. etc. to make your point/doctrine, maybe it’s really not good doctrine. The arrogance, pride, and elitism are just below the surface. I didn’t see it or understand it when I was 19, but now, many years later, I really understand a lot more clearly what they’re REALLY saying.
Well, thanks again to the administrators of this blog, I really appreciate the work you’ve done here.
http://danielbailey.blogspot.com/
Just wanted to say that I'm still at LFF in "middle leadership" and I have not heard anyone ask or imply that we still at LFF shouldn't talk to those who are no longer at LFF. I have many close friends who have left LFF for various reasons, some were hurt and some simply graduated and moved. I still keep in contact with these people and no one has ever said anything to me about it.
Dear Middle Leadership,
I wrote what I wrote in responce to comments to someone still attending by leadership (what level I can only guess.) The comments where to the attendees asking them to reconsider their having contact with someone who had left. I do know all the names in the situation. I really don't care about the details of leaders position but I guess it's above middle.
I really don't care about that situation as much as I care about those who have been burned or are burned out. It breaks my heart to read and hear each story. None are really the same but there are common themes.
I pray God's best for you. I'm curious why your reading this blog?
" This is the church that was started by the ‘founding pastors’ of LFF."
just wanted to mentiont this church was not started by both founding members. it was started by kevin hunter, with the help of sherri barden. karl was not involved in starting it, and is not involved in the leadership.
Are kevin hunter and sherri barden still together?
Honestly, comments/questions like the above offend me. I am not the person you asked the question of, but how do you think that questions about whether Kevin and Sherri are together will bring healing to you or anyone (which is the stated purpose of this blog)? It's gossip, plain and simple, and though you may be hurting, it doesn't seem like pettiness like that is justified. It only fuels fires. There are MANY points on this blog that are heartfelt, painful expressions. Then comments like this discredit the whole thing. If you're seeking healing, then seek healing. Don't throw more wood on the fire, because it affects those who are genuinely trying to deal with their hurts. I don't say this in anger, but in burden to not see the purpose of the blog blindsided by flippant comments.
I am not seeking healing. I still go to LFF. I like it there. I don't have anyone to forgive. I am just curious because they used to be my pastors, a part of my life for a few years. I had relationship with them, they broke it, and no one has told us the truth about them.
Perhaps its gossip. Perhaps its just concern. Thanks for the condecending retort.
So, if "someone" responded that they were "still" together, that would be truth to you? How do you know whether or not you've been told the truth already? Maybe the best way to get a truthful answer would be to ask Kevin and Sherri.
Wow, someone's spewing VRG! Get over it already! Who talks like that? "I don't say this in anger, but in burden to not see the purpose of the blog blindsided by flippant comments." Seriously, it was an honest question that more than one person probably had. What's the point of jumping down their throat like that?
"Maybe the best way to get a truthful answer would be to ask Kevin and Sherri."
From a logical analysis of that argument, I think you might find it a bit wanting. What reason would they have to gain to tell the truth? None at all and lots to lose…
Hmm, reminds me of the old saying...
"Where there's smoke, there's fire..."
Either that or...
"Me thinks thou doest protest too much"
But really, who cares if they're together? Looking at the Door of Grace site, it seems like Karl has preached there a few times. So it would seem that Karl & Sherri are on the surface together anyway.
Karl probably wasn't involved in the establishment of that church because he got sick of reading the response to truth sheets. What a waste of time and trees…
To the person who is in middle leadership, you read this website and your only comment is that they haven't discouraged you from talking to people that have left LFF. Yet you don't say anything about the reports you are writing on the people under you or the manipulation of the top leadership towards you. Or how about the fact that PCS is praticaly a ghost town because kids don't want to be treated like robots who must conform or be punished. Or how about the families that have been destroyed because the children rarely see their parents, because there parents are being encouraged to "be involved."
What I've learned from this site in the past few hours is that anyone countering or offering a different perspective is considered to be spewing VRG or jumping down people's throats. MY GOD ~ I said the question offended me because it has nothing to do with MY healing process. There are bigger issues than whether Kevin and Sherri are together. I'd rather deal with those in my life than answer whether they're together or not.
I am actually a person who has left LFF and has a lot of pain as a result. I was abused. I was taken advantage of. I was made to feel like I was a lesser person. For me talking about Bardens' Mercedes (which they've never owned, as far as I know) or their yacht, or whether Kevin and Sherri are together does not bring healing ~ because it's what happened in the past that comes up in my dreams and consumes my daily thoughts.
Going to the source for an answer is actually a BIBLICAL principal. By saying I wasn't angry I was TRYING to express that I wasn't TRYING to come across judgmental so forgive me that I came across that way. I obviously failed that part...
But I was trying to express that am burdened because just as there was at LFF, there seems to be a double standard for this blog as well. We all get mad that our lives were gossipped about and written about and how unbiblical and abusive that was, and then I get told that following what the Bible instructs is VRG???? So, where does it end? We say THEY were unbiblical, but for some reason it doesn't matter if we are?
This is not to defend LFF at all. LFF was wrong and LFF is responsible. But let's not lose sight of the fact that we ALL are going to stand before God and account for our idle words. Not just Bardens, Vances, or whoever else's names come up on this site.
So, I know I made no friends by sharing these thoughts and feelings but at this point I don't care because I feel like this bunch is starting to follow on the same path as the entity they are discussing. I have several times wanted to respond and share my thoughts but didn't because I was too afraid of getting MY throat jumped down (a life I lived for 15 years). Now that's been confirmed.
So now I will be silenced, like I was often for voicing my burdens there...
The administrators of this blog have said several times that they will not censor anything said in the comment box. For that I thank them. They have also reminded us that honey attracts more bees than vinegar. And that is a very good point for all of us to remeber.
whether Kevin and Sherri are together, while an interesting question, is irrelevant.
If your intent in coming here is to bring down LFF you are here for the wrong reason. If your intent in coming here is to share gossip, oncea again you are here for the wrong reason. If you are here because you enjoy the voyeuristic aspect of people reliving and ridding themselves of pain, you are here for the wrong reason.
This blog is meant to help people heal and help people find a way out and new hope. LFF has committed awful crimes against most of us. Let us not return the favor. I think it was solomon who said that kind words will heap coals on the head of your enemies...
Think about it.
Hello everyone...
I have been going to LFF for about 7 years. I used to be extremely active with church outreach, and I dedicated a lot of my life and time for the ministry. Throughout the process, I lost touch with my friends, my own family, and my cultural identity. I am no longer an active participant of the church. I just go to Sunday services when I can and leave shortly after.
My experiences at LFF have been both good and bad. I learned a lot about myself at LFF and about others. However, I do not regret ever getting involved. The truth is, my life did change for the good. I had a relationship with Jesus and I found that being lost in worship was the best feeling ever. There are a lot of bad things I can say about LFF, but I am not about that. I needed Jesus in my life and LFF led me to Him. I am thankful for the knowledge and understanding I gained at LFF through the preaching, teaching, and mentorship.
I can't say that I hate LFF because it has done so much for me. However, I can say that I do disagree with some of the tactics and disciplinary actions they have carried out in the past. I do believe that there is a lot of good at LFF and I will continue to pray for the church and for Pastor Phil.
What does VRG mean?
I was wondering that too. I really hope it's not one of LFF's christianese terms
Well if it was LFFese, it would be:
VERY RIDICULOUS GOBBLEDYGOOK
VRG = Verbal Religious Garbage. I think it is the kind of judgement that too many of us have been used to making based on our experience at LFF. How can anyone judge what my intent is when I say something. Only I can say what my intent is. So, please don't judge what others are saying. I have mentioned the "4 agreements" before. Remember that when other people react like the poster of the VRG accusation did, it is not about you. You said something that touched something inside of them. They are not really reacting to you, but something inside of them. It is part of their healing process too.
Don't let their "stuff" silence you. I am not an administrator, but I think they would like to have the diversity of opinions that we all bring. I believe that general netiquette should be followed (especially since everyone here is opening up areas that many have never opened up before). No flame wars please.
I don't know what the relationship is between Pastor Kevin and Pastor Sherri, except for very good friends. Think about it. Pastor Sherri has been Pastor Kevin's spiritual oversight since the 70's. Of course they are close. Pastor Kevin started the church during the time when P. Karl and P Sherri were separated. P. Sherri helped him start the church. The way I understand it, P. Karl is living with P. Sherri in Pt. Ludlow now, and he probably shares the pulpit from time to time. He is retired, and available for speaking engagements. (and NO, I'm not hiring him to speak at the meet and greet!) ;-) (BTW, that was a joke!)
So, please don't yell at other people who post. Give them the same grace that you would like.
To the last blogger (at 12:59 pm on 11-1-2005), very well said! I agree wholeheartedly that this should be a place to express your thoughts, opinions, ideas, questions, etc. freely! We don't have to speak the same word or believe the same thing, thank goodness! We don't have to have a doctrine for everything either.
I can also confirm the facts you stated about Door of Grace. I did go to the source directly for an explanation. I talked to Sherri personally. I don't think it is gossip to share the facts about who is doing what at Door of Grace. I am frankly amazed at the lack of knowledge of the facts surrounding that ministry and LFF's former pastors. Is there a reason for that? Are members being kept in the dark?
I think it is important for that information to become public especially with how much they preached about purity and how bad adulters are. Personally if I had know that my pastors were separated and caught up in a love triangle I probably would have left long before I ever did. How can they preach about relationships when theres is failing? Thank you to the poster who first asked this question, you have made me feel even more secure about leaving.
In there defense I hear it is kind of a "feelings" triangle. but that isn't really the point what ever happened to protecting and caring for your wife.
To the poster at 11/01/2005 2:41 PM
Are you saying that the members of Door of Grace are being kept in the dark? I would believe that.
I've listened to several Door of Grace messages now, and of course, nothing is ever said that is bad about LFF or that they acted unwisely and built a 2200 seat sanctuary that churches 10 times their size would love to have. Nor anything about even allegations about spiritual abuse or any other impropriety – We’re all about love here at Door of Grace – everyone is welcome…
It's spooky to see how they've set the stage for a church similar to LFF. It’ll take them a while because the target audience is an older, and maybe wiser crowd, so it’ll take a while to break down the boundaries of normal behaviour.
(Cue Twilight Zone music)
At the beginning of this year they had a "Building Your Faith Series" - sort of a cheap catechism class without the recitation and homework, but they had the Response to Truth worksheets and said that if you wanted to be in a position of leadership, you'd have to agree with them (based on your responses to their truth).
Regarding Kevin and Sherri, the person was correct in saying that their relationship didn't relate to the healing that many are searching for. However, it does have a lot to do with integrity. The Bible admonishes us to avoid the very appearance of evil. Nobody outside of the couple involved in a marriage can truly know and understand the marriage. We can't see into Karl and Sherri Barden's marriage; all we can see is what they show or tell, which may or may not be an accurate picture. In the same way, we couldn't accurately discern the depths of the relationship between Kevin and Gale Hunter. What we could see, though, was that Sherri Barden received attentions from Kevin that could and maybe should have been lavished on Gale, David, Chris, and Joshua Hunter. It looked wrong; it felt wrong. Their relationship seemed exclusive in the way that a marriage relationship should be; they were one, tightly joined together. It is a question of integrity because, as church leaders, they set an example that they would have rebuked others for following.
To Daniel
I wrote the comment at 2:41 yesterday. I meant that it seems LFF members are being kept in the dark about Door of Grace. I have to assume that a lot of people who are commenting here have been members of LFF in the past five years. I'm just surprised that there is so much confusion among this group about Kevin, Karl, and Sherri. Did everyone just agree not to talk about it or ask questions? Did they get slapped down when they did? Were members of the church (LFF) who absolutely had the right to know what was going on with their former pastors made to feel like infidels for even asking questions about them?
I did not mean to infer that there was any inpropriety between Kevin and Sherri. Although the last blogger (10:33 pm) has some good points. It was stuff we all noticed (like Kari and all her boys) yet we had to look the other way. Nope, you're right. None of us could have gotten away with that kind of behavior. They were a law unto themselves. Like kings and queens really.
Can you imagine confronting any one of those pastors about their seemingly inappropriate behavior? The consequence would certainly involve getting screamed at from a distance of less than six inches from your face, them finding some grave or heinous sin you must be hiding, and you getting up close and personal with some blue or purple carpet. You would be thankful to have escaped with your life...but not really. Were we "aware and choosing" really? We weren't allowed to have an opinion or ask a question that offended our leadership. They wielded tremendous power.
I am someone who has left within the last 5 years and yes if you asked questions you were belittled and basically presented with the "How dare you assume something of that nature." Then given no real information as to what was really going on. So basically then you didn't asked and looked the other way in order avoid any further abuse that might come your way for even thinking of such a thing. Which we were all apparently thinking.
I too am not saying there is anything going on between Sherri and Kevin. I do think that perhaps the relationship is a bit off, and the person that said it was an ‘emotional’ attraction or whatever may have it right. I don’t know. I don’t really care.
Still… it’s not right, and as you say, why do they get away with it when one of the ‘sheep’ would get trampled if they did something like that?
It’s just such a mess.
The reason I discuss any of this is that I want the truth out about the real methods and things that go on at LFF to become public, and to take a look at any similarities to LFF that DOG (Door of Grace) might have (they really should have looked at those initials before they decided on that name ;-) If DOG is a mini-LFF then that needs to be brought out in the open and those that attend there can make a decision with all the facts.
I’ve been reading a few blogs and LiveJournals of people who go to LFF, and every one of them was not doing all that well in school. None of them said that they were failing like I did, but they seemed very concerned and worried about their continued career at WSU/UI.
One blogger mentioned that they had something going 6 nights a week involving church and also prayer in the mornings. I remember those days. It was so hard to understand what I should do when I wanted to be part of the group of those who were ‘pressing into God’. Who wouldn’t? However, person has to study sometime too and there are only 24 hours in the day, and sleeping less is an unwise choice.
Going up to Fountain Street early in the morning to shovel someone’s sidewalk so they wouldn’t have to soil their shoes was probably not the wisest use of my time. Plus exercise is a good thing for everyone, even those in leadership…
I loved the comment that someone made about how it was a better use of time to help clean the toilet of his or her single mother neighbor rather than clean for someone who is already a Christian.
It’ll be a cold day in hell now that I’d let anyone scream in my face from a distance of less than 6 inches. (They have to do it from a minimum of a foot – just kidding) I do understand the mind warp that happens though when you’re there and you let the ‘Pastors’ do that kind of stuff. Perhaps someone just needs to give them the ‘one-fingered salute’ when they try that. Hehe I’d love to see the ‘Pastor’s Christlike response’ to that :-)
I had an experience where I had to stand up to a full colonel (my boss’s boss) when I was on active duty in the Washington DC area. He didn’t like the way I was briefing – he felt I gave too much information. I had only answered a question from the surgeon general that I knew the answer to, but it made us look bad, but it was the truth. I got called up to the colonel’s office after the briefing and he chewed me out (no shouting in my face though) but I basically said, ok, whatever, but I will probably do the same thing again if a 3-star general asks me a question and I know the answer – I’ll tell him what I know to be true. The colonel was pretty pissed at me, but I didn’t care what he thought. The feeling was probably mutual …
http://danielbailey.blogspot.com/
Reply to the writer of:
"I wrote the comment at 2:41 yesterday. I meant that it seems LFF members are being kept in the dark about Door of Grace. I have to assume that a lot of people who are commenting here have been members of LFF in the past five years. I'm just surprised that there is so much confusion among this group about Kevin, Karl, and Sherri. Did everyone just agree not to talk about it or ask questions? Did they get slapped down when they did? Were members of the church (LFF) who absolutely had the right to know what was going on with their former pastors made to feel like infidels for even asking questions about them?"
Current members (people in '401' as it's now called) are not in the dark. Bardens and Kevin were asked to come to a 401 meeting awhile back to address these rumors, and explain what exactly has been going on in pt. ludlow. There is not a rel'ship between Sherri and Kevin other than that of mother/son, which is what it always has been, at least as long as I've been here. I think alot of people who write here, and have left in the last 5 years, were not part of 401, so of course they wouldn't know all that. I don't think it's something that needed to be addressed to the congregation, half of whom don't even know the people in question. So for your other questions - we DID ask, and we WERE answered, and if anyone who was not in 401 asked any of us about it, we were told to go ahead and answer their questions. I just never heard anyone else ask. I'm not defending how things happened - I had doubts about the rel'ship too, and the 401 members did stand up and tell Sherri and Kevin that they were not avoiding the appearance of evil, as they taught us to do, and after some thought (and cooling down), they agreed and apologized. Just FYI, since you asked.
To the last comment'r, what is with the term "401?" I was a member for over a decade, and we always called it "Members Meeting." It was a very descriptive term. Why 401? Is it to be secretive? Is it so people who are not members don't feel excluded?
I do however, think that it is very admirable for the Bardens and Kevin to have come and told the truth to the "401" meeting folks. As long as one assumes they are telling the truth, the fact that they took the time to speak the truth is great. There has got to be a Scripture to quote here, but I can't think of one. I don't have much respect for those 3, but that action I do respect.
So if a new person asks current leadership about the founding pastors now, what will be said?
> So if a new person asks
> current leadership about
> the founding pastors now,
> what will be said?
Should we care what they say?
I pray God's grace on them and on us all and let's get on with our lives. :)
That's a valid question for a person to ask (a new person asking about former leadership). A valid answer would be what the comment stated about the "401" meeting. (This is assuming that LFF is not funding Kevin, Sherri, Karl, or Door of Grace...and I have no idea what is going on financially.) At this point, the people that should be getting clarification about Sherri and Kevin's relationship, if they have any uncertainty, are the members of their church in Port Ludlow.
Since you asked, if you really want to know, the old GGs class was redone and is now called The Carpenter Series. (As many have stated, there have been a lot of changes at LFF under the current new leadership.) Carpenter Series is broken up into three sections: 101, 201, and 301 (4 lessons each). Thus if a person only wants to take 101, they can, and don't have to feel condemned for not going further. If a person finishes all three classes (equivalent to finishing all of GGs), they can be a "Member" if they want to, just by saying "yes, I want to be a Member". Very low-commitment. Since that is now what a member is, the title of the old "Members" meeting had to be changed, so it was changed to "401" - for those who want LFF to be their home for a more longer-term, and who want to really be involved and know what's going on and all that. It's the same as what "Members" used to be, just a different name, so that a person who finishes the Carpenter Series can be called a member. If you were still here, it would not be confusing or mysterious at all, but since you asked, I'm answering. Hope it clears things up for you.
Thanks for the 401 explanation. Didn't know that. I agree that changes have been made. Too bad they aren't helping the hundreds that have left.
I read a post that Vances were not reading the blog. Not true. I have other sources, that say Kari is reading it. Daily. I'd bet Sherri & Julie read it too. I mean hey - no condemnation, but none of them really have a "day" job with a real boss. I know Tami does, she's a sweetheart. :) Hi Mouse. :) I digress.
Your comments are being read. Possibly mostly dismissed, but read nonetheless. I just hope they realize that we are still out here. We aren't going anywhere and they have to live with what they've done and said. Not that it can't be forgiven, but it might not be forgotten.
Sherri shared a song with a group of us about 6 months before she left. Probably '01 or '02 It's the Backstreet Boys "Shape of my Heart" I liked it at first, neat sound and all, but then the lyrics hit me one day. I think SHERRI might have felt trapped. Check out the lyrics. The "lady" in the song is LFF members. Albeit- it may not fit exactly, but be open minded.
Kevin and Sherri are Mother/son? I've never seen a mother and son carry on the way they do. But as this entire blog goes to show, people will believe all sorts of things.
Yet Sherri and Kevin (and Karl to some degree) are in a new place and are gradually laying the foundations for a new church that has the same old trappings of LFF such as "Response to Truth sheets" hmmm...
As 'Pastor' Kevin says so often in his messages... "Let's go to the Bible"
OK, let's - where do the apostles keep databases on the believer's responses to truth? And use that information to blackmail people into staying at their church? Or personal slaves to the leadership, er people with a servant’s heart? Or berate people publicly? Or any of the other craziness that goes on in the name of ‘ministry’ training at LFF?
Uh huh... I'll wait…
Ding!
Oh sorry time's up - didn't find that in the Bible did you? If you did find it there, it was under the section of “What NOT to do”…
I do feel bad for them – I would hate to read all the stuff in this blog and realize it was my selfish policies that created the mess.
However, maybe it would have been best to get involved with a local church in Port Ludlow and help build the Kingdom of God there, rather than building your own church so you don’t have anyone to answer to. That way the hundreds if not thousands of former LFFer’s would know that there was a ‘true repentance’, a change of heart, a 180 degree turn… you know the drill…
But only they can answer that question…
to the person making the 12:24 comment: I don't think that people necessary believe the mother/son stuff. However, it's not our place to bully Kevin and Sherri into being what we feel is more truthful. They have to answer to God for their behavior and their responses to confrontation. If, however, LFF is bankrolling any part of Door of Grace or staff, good stewardship demands further scrutiny, which is beyond the scope of this blog.
oops I meant "necessarily" instead of "necessary" in the previous comment
The congregation has been kept in the dark about Kevin, Sherri, Karl and the money. The Bardens and Kevin were confronted by individual member's for the inappropriateness of the relationship and Karl's failure to put a stop to it. This was while they were still the senior pastors. Things like the two of them (Sherri and Kevin) going to concerts together. Or being seen after 11:00 pm cruising around Pullman in a convertible with the tunes on loud. Or watching movies together until the wee hours of the morning (without Karl) when Karl was going through chemo. These are simply facts that were witnessed by many. And those people got messed up by what they saw. And now it's irrelevent? It’s ok that people in their own congregation have been messed up by this?
Those members who dared to confront Karl were shredded by "the daughters" for doing the Biblical thing. Then the daughters had a talk with their mama trying to get it to stop. It didn't.
The reason this all matters is that it ties into the integrity of the former and current leadership. They covered up the fact the Sherri left her husband. At best, they misrespresented, and at worst, they lied about the state of the marriage of the founding pastors and the concerns about Sherri and Kevin. Even when many of the congregation knew parts of the truth, the Vances wouldn't answer questions put to them about the situation. It was always answered with a "let's not judge, let's not gossip, we need to honor them, they need time to work through this".......without ever saying what "this" was.
Karl and Kari both held fast to the story that Sherri was just needing to rest, “it was medical” and “it was to take care of Sherri's ailing mom”. None of which was untrue, but bypassed the heart of the problem they all knew existed. By this time the other two Barden sisters had exited the scene because they knew the truth. Yet they did so silently and still protected the family. Who can blame them? What a mess.
Then when Kevin and Sherri started a church work - that messed a lot of people up. How could she be too sick to continue ministry here with us but be well enough to start a brand new work? Karl wasn't even reconciled with her. She wouldn’t let him live with her or give him a place in the new ministry (presently they act like they are back together but the truth of how they live and the status of their marriage has still been tightly protected).
It is inappropriate for any man or woman to start a church ministry separate from their spouse with a "best friend" of the opposite sex. There is not any two people in the whole LFF family or any other Christian church who could get away with it. It's flat out wrong. In any church setting that would be looked upon as weird and unacceptable. They are soul partners and it is wrong! It’s also wrong that her husband won’t stand up to it. She has got both of these men (Karl and Kevin) at her beck and call but says there is nothing wrong with the relationship(s). They expect all of us to buy it hook, line and sinker, too. To think people feel like it's ok to support their ministry by being speakers or providing materials or serving in their new church or whatever type of support they get, seems crazy to me. That does not mean God won't use them. He uses donkeys when He has to. I won't discount fruit that might come from their work. But I don't feel guilty judging the situation as wrong and feeling like I could not support it in any way... ever.
It’s ridiculous for anyone to put shame on me for simply observing what is so obviously WRONG. Even outside of Christian circles it would be a strange looking threesome. And they wouldn't be so gracious about not making assumptions.
Someone noted that we should go to the source and be biblical. Well, that has been done in many ways. People talked to them while they were pastoring here. People have called Bardens/Kevin to confront the situation. The Bardens/Kevin came back to town to "set us all right" and put us at ease. The main reason stated was that "we were putting the Vances through too much crap over the situation". It was an ugly meeting where the members, who were side-swiped by their presence, initially thought there might actually be a chance at forgiveness. But Bardens and Kevin continued in the vein of "we are ok and you are all sinners for not accepting that or questioning that". It did not go well. Nearly every member that really confronted the issues were met with arrogant rantings from Kevin or Karl, both of whom were determined to protect Sherri and take the blame for everything she had done. (In Kevin’s defense, he apologized for how he handled the situation but took no responsibility for how wrong this relationship was/is.) The Vances actually sat there and let the Bardens lie about some situations while the congregation was forced to come up with all the right questions and still didn’t get straight answers. It got to a point where the five of them - Bardens, Vances, and Kevin - just kept saying that it was none of our business and the problems were based in our being backbiting murmurers.
That's why this point is relevent. The truth about the marriage and the money has never been disclosed by those who were supposed to be watching over the flock.
Does that mean the status of Bardens is more important than the different types of pain that others suffered? No way.
But we'd all do well to recognize that this messed up family, whether deliberately or not, caused a lot of pain in a lot of different ways. For some the Bardens don't matter. For others, their situation is the crux of their pain. Some people are fine with Vances, others credit them for their deep wounds.
The hard part is that the truth has still never been disclosed honestly, humbly or completely by those who really know. By those who said they loved us more than anyone else ever could. It is still a carefully guarded game of data/information control.
The reason people can stay and support is because they have been kept in the dark. And if you don't even know there are questions to ask..... or if you have been lied to when you had the courage to ask.... why would you leave?
It’s also a very powerful thing to say, “Have you handled it biblically?” “You are just bitter.” “You would see differently if you could get over your pain.” Getting healed of any of the pain won’t change what these leaders have done. They were the first to divert from biblical standards. They broke the covenant and we didn’t even know it. The woman left her husband and her church. Her children covered it up. They continued to receive their full pay and held their positions on the board without ever disclosing to the congregation the true state of their marriage. The new pastors (their children) have not been honest with the congregation about the marriage or the money that has gone out to them since. Why is it the congregation’s responsibility to be biblically loyal when the leadership has so blatantly broken any covenant of responsibility to them?
If anything, this family should be grateful for the years of grace extended to them by the many members of this congregation, both under Bardens and then under Vances. We believed the best of them when there was no reason to. Just because we loved them so much. We believed what they said and followed them. We stayed even after they (Bardens) left and continued to give our all. We hoped for the best even when we saw glimpses of the raw truth of their failure. They won’t even acknowledge the depth of our sacrifice and loyalty... by trusting us with the truth. They lied to us and won’t admit it. How are we responsible for that? Why are we so ashamed to say it like it is. We are not trying to smear anyone. But facts are facts. They did these things. If they cannot see it, face it and make it right, we, at the very least can be free to release ourselves from their influence.
I am not happy or gleeful to write such things. But I am tired of feeling like I have to run from the truth because it might make these leaders look bad. Since when does the truth have to be hidden? I'm not the one who did these things as a pastor called to care for hundreds of other people.
Thanks for all of the clarification of what has actually gone on with trying to find the truth. What can be done now? Should anything more be done? It seems that further confrontation would be fruitless. Withdrawing any kind of support - finanacial or otherwise - would be prudent. Maybe, though, the Bardens have accumulated so much wealth over the years that they would be immune to any financial pressure.
in the above comment you said "It is inappropriate for any man or woman to start a church ministry separate from their spouse with a "best friend" of the opposite sex. There is not any two people in the whole LFF family or any other Christian church who could get away with it. It's flat out wrong."
I see a lot of judgement here. I am not going to disagree with most of what you said, but this statement above is hard to find in the Bible. Yes, there are scriptures about avoiding the appearance of evil, but it is not wrong to start a ministry. You make it sound like they left LFF and Pullman so they could "live in sin". I imagine that it was a chance to escape Karl for both of them. Now that he is back in the picture, it must be difficult. I know that Kevin and Sherri both put great importance on the intimate relationship with Jesus. If I was Kevin and wanted to start a new ministry and Sherri was available, I can think of no one else that I would want to start it with. Yes, they are going to take parts of LFF with them. That is what they know. It seems to me that you have already tried and convicted all three of them.
Again, let me stress, I know what I know by heresay. I have been gone a long time. I don't have enough information to judge them one way or the other.
As for the hiding of the truth, that is usually assumed as admitting that it is truth. Think of any time someone pleads the 5th amendment. Don't you assume that means they are guilty? So, Vances, Bardens, P. Kev, it is only hurting yourselves to hide the truth. The truth will set you (and us) free.
Sherri, like many of us, found the courage to leave an abusive relationship. If you have any doubt that she was subjected to far worse than we were, consider this: on one occasion I received absolutely unneccessary public shaming from Kari with Karl looking on and smiling...laughing really. How abusive is that? I'm sure it happened to you at one time or another as well. I witnessed countless acts of that sort. If he would act that way in public, you know he was far worse at home. They always told us parents that "rule" about our kids: If they behave that way here (church, daycare, home), they must be even worse at home.
I'm not jumping to her defense. I know that she caused a lot of pain. Put yourself in her shoes for a moment, though. What could she have done? Should she have stood up before the whole congregation and given her real reasons for leaving before she left? Don't you think her very life would have been in danger? I do.
By the way, after the above mentioned shaming I endured, I was in tears and there was one person who showed me compassion: Sherri Barden.
Someone asked why a current member would come here and read the blog. I'll have to say that when I first came to this site, I was ready to leave LFF right then and there. As I thought it out a little more and prayed and talked to my husband who had also been hurt by things that happened in the past, I decided that I didn't really want to leave. Too many good things have happened for me there, and my husband- who could have easily said,"Let's leave," said that he wasn't feeling called to leave either. I think there is much good that can be done there, and I want to be part of it.
I do continue to come here on occasion because my heart does hurt for those of you who have been hurt. I don't discredit your experiences. I hope that you can heal. I know that it can take a while. I've been hurt by religion before, too. I want to make sure that it doesn't happen to others.
I've stated this before, and I'll state it again- no one has told us that we cannot talk to our be friends w/ those who have left. I'm not saying that this didn't happen in the past, and it's very wrong, but we need to focus on doing what needs to be done to heal and build the body of Christ- in whatever church that may be. I don't look down on people that attend other churches for whatever reason- or no church at all. In my many years at LFF, I have never been told to drop friendships w/ those who would never come to church. One of my husband's friends is very clear that he will not join a church of any kind, and my husband is okay w/ that. We haven't been kicked out of membership for that.
Anyway, excuse the novel, but I did want to say that you are all loved. And I don't have to fill out any paperwork to be your friend ;).
I do not doubt that Sherri was in an abusive relationship with Karl. He is a cunning and cruel man. He reads people well and made repeated choices to use that insight for his own ends rather than for ministry. I think Sherri is totally justified in making an escape. I do not think, however, that her poor marriage with Karl justifies her inappropriate relationship with Kevin.
During the time that I had contact with Sherri I asked her (more than once) to tell the church about the abuses that had taken place in her marriage and in the church. This was both before and after Karl showed up in Ludlow. I reminded her that "the truth will set you free". I know that hearing her side of things, and finding out more about what really went on during the time I lived in Pullman helped me to be released from the past. She told me that telling the truth (i.e. exposing Karl's abuse in the family and of the members, explaining why she felt she had to leave, etc., etc.) would destroy the church. From what I can see, the church is self-destructing anyway.
Unfortunately, many of the members of the church in Ludlow were all too ready to recieve an unhealthy level of control and domination from thier pastor. When I look into my own heart, and examine why I "just want someone to tell me what to do", it has to do with avoiding taking responsibility for my own life....
to "Someone asked why a current member would come here and read the blog."
Excuse me, but you don't know what you are talking about.
Why, then, when I went back there for school semesters at WSU was I completely ignored? Why when I run into someone do they act like they have a pressing engagement? The answer is simply that I had been one of the first to leave LFF.
They might not be telling you out right not to talk to people, but THEY have ways of letting you know. The look is one. I have had it happen to me several times. If I said or did anything that THEY did not like, I got a look and the subject was quickly changed.
Yes, eighteen years there taught me a lot.
As for the good times, yes, there were lots of good times. But, the bad times far out weigh the good ones. Did you know that I was pulled out of a chair by my pony tail as a small child?
To the last poster- I said I didn't discredit any of your pain or hurt. I was just saying that I won't be one to abandon my friends that have left. I'm still in contact w/ some of my friends that have left. I just know that as long as I've been in church and members, I've never heard it said that we shouldn't have fellowship w/ anyone that left. And I've been there a long time.
Again, I'm sorry that you were hurt, and there's really no excuse.
I'm also not blindly following the things that are told to me, so I think things might be different from my perspective than from another persons.
I know how hard it is to even consider leaving LFF. I cried when my family and I left there.
I grew up in Pullman. I am not sure if you have kids, or if you plan on having them in the future. It was mostly for their sakes that I said the things I said.
I was abused at LFF mostly psycologically, but also physically. I am struggling as a result of it. Think about what you are doing to those kids! Or even if you never plan on having any kids, think about what LFF is doing to those kids. I lived in constant fear at LFF. Karl Barden screamed at us more times then once. I belive a few people have commented on it, but there is no way you could possibly understand being screamed at for something you didn't even know was going on! This happened, not once, but 10 or 15 times a school year. Once he brought the whole Highschool up to the front and yelled at us because some of us had pierced ears and used gel in our hair. I wish I could make you understand.
Sometimes you can't fully understand what a horrible place it is until you have acctually left. LFF is not real life. In real life, people are not always checking up on you to make sure that you are doing everything correctly. Most churches don't even care if you don't believe everything that is preached from the pulpit.
I am not saying that you have to leave. The very fact that you are not on this site proves that you don't do everything they say.
Speaking of which, I wonder if this site has been publically baned from the pulpit, yet? I'll bet that more people are reading it then they know.
I agree with the above poster, To anyone at LFF if you have kids or plan to. Leave the church or your kids will be permanantly damaged, you can say things have changed but they haven't when it comes to the kids. Your children need to be your first priority. How often are you doing something at church and away from your kids or how often are you meeting with people instead of spending time with your kids. The last generation of us that grew up at LFF, grew up without parents. Sure we had dinner together almost every night but then they had things to do because of church and their role in leadership. There were a few kids whose parents went against the grain and made their kids the first priority and the parents were punished because of it. I cry for the kids still there ast LFF and PCS because their parents have sentenced them to a childhood of emotional abuse. If you don't believe me check out all the old PCSer blogs.
I won't comment too much because I don't want to give my identity up, but I will say that you don't need to worry about my family. I don't know how long you have been gone, but right now at LFF, there is no pressure to be involved in anything. You can be in as much or as little as you want w/ out being condemned. My family comes before LFF, and if I ever felt that it didn't, I would be out of there in a heartbeat. I do realize that this wasn't the case, and I do feel for the families that suffered because of the over-involvement of their parents.
I'm not sure what the current state of affairs of PCS are- though I do know they have done a lot to change that too. I don't know what kind of schooling I will choose for any children that I might have, but I do know that some LFFers have their kids in public school or other means, and I haven't heard anything about their parenting being ?ed.
And yes, Pastor Phil did say we shouldn't come visit the blog. However, I don't think it was because he was afraid of it- or why would he even bring the blog up at all? I mean, if you tell someone to not do something, you could be pretty sure that curiousity is going to get the best of them. Part of me wishes that I didn't come here because it tears me up inside, but I also believe that it is where God wants me for now.
“Part of me wishes that I didn't come here because it tears me up inside”
Where in the Bible does it say, “Come to me all you who are heavy laden and I will add burdens and bondages to you?”
You’re there and I’m not, but think about what you said…
You might be right that you’re “where god wants you for right now”, but it might be just a god rather than THE God.
dB
to the 11/10/2005 10:30 PM poster:
that is what we all said
Phil Vance is a coward then. Let people come read for themselves and know the Truth About Living Faith Fellowship.
You say things have changed. You say you aren't pressured to do anything. Well why aren't you free to think? To make your own decisions?
The fact that no one from LFF has even contacted anyone about the blog is proof of their cowardice. Admin have you heard anything? They can run and try to hide, but in time the truth will find them out.
I also echo the sentiment of the previous commenter--if you have kids, get them out of there NOW. You have no idea what awaits them. Do not believe the Vances lies that things have changed.
I would like to respond to the bloggers of 11/5/2005 2:21 PM and 11/05/2005 7:38 PM.
To the first - regarding judgment and biblical backing. I agree that I have judged. I am not trying to hide that or be ashamed of judging this situation. The Bible does not tell us to forego judgment. God instructs us to be willing to be judged if we are to exercise any roles that require passing judgment. “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” Proverbs, particularly, sets out how God expects us to pursue wisdom and judgment and then to use both to better the world around us. So much of Christianity suppresses the wisdom God gives by crushing us with the “judge not” teaching.
I believe, with all my heart, that this must be balanced with His commands to love and to respect our fellow humans. There is dignity that must be extended even when the harshest judgments must or should be administered.
You may not be able to see this fully, and I will not try to convince you of this in detail. But even though the entries of this blog may seem harsh or judgmental, many writers have been extremely careful to not just blurt out some of the most personal and delicate facts that would support what you have already read. If anyone wrote the extent of what they know, this would be a case closed situation. I have been amazed about how much dignity has been extended to this family of leaders (Bardens/Vances)on this blog. People have been so much more gracious than I would have expected. Especially under the cover of anonymity. There are only a few comments that really put it out there raw. Even in writing the entry you addressed, I have left out many specific items that I could easily send out through this blog – items I could back up with witnesses/dates – but I don’t want to enter into a smear campaign. I simply want people to know there is a lot of “truth” that has never been disclosed. That failure to disclose has been deliberate.
This is "truth" that people who have given so much over so many years have every right to know.
It is very awkward for all of us (nice, Christian people, who want to follow God and please Him) to figure out what do with what we “know”. Especially when we have been so conditioned with the "don't sow discord" teaching. Although sowing discord is relevant, it is mentioned much less in the Bible than the exercising of wisdom, judgment and the specific responsibility of leaders. It is also tough, because you can hear the response in the halls of LFF about how bitter, hateful and wrong we are, just because we dare to do something godly with what we "know".
I don’t pretend to have the whole story either. There are many parts of this story that I don’t know because so much has been covered up and hidden. Some things I know in part, following are things I am not sure of, but have heard from many sources.
The Bardens, Vances and Kevin are not all a tight, unified group. There are many rifts between them. Karl filed some kind of legal action against Phil, or, at least some legal mitigation occurred between them. I believe Phil and/or LFF paid him/them a settlement. But when asked about these items personally or before members, they refused to answer. The daughters hold Kevin more responsible for the relational mess than their mother. The Bardens living situation does not reflect a healthy marriage. I’ve heard that people ask Sherri to use her influence to still direct Kari. Kari is loyal to her parents rather and the new vision the congregation wants. She undermines her husband in many ways. I also know that the sisters don’t all agree with each other or their parents entirely.
There is much that will probably never be written on this blog, and it shouldn’t. But there are things that people have begged the leadership to come clean on for years and it still hasn’t happened. People do have a right to know these things and make decisions of support based on a real knowledge. I don’t feel guilty if I sound like I have tried and convicted them on the facts that I do know. Facts that we covered with them directly and they lied to us, even when we told them what we knew. They just wanted to know who else knew about it.
Fortunately, my judgment does very little in the big picture. God will judge them and me for our parts in this situation. I hope to be found faithful before Him in handling these things according to His Word and His love.
I am not asking for your understanding or agreement, but you must know that this group of leaders (the Bardens/Vances/Kevin) have forced many of us into a situation where we must exercise discernment, wisdom and judgment just to make decisions on our own involvement.
It is a painstaking process to handle in a godly, but honest, manner any information that has been suppressed from current supporters in order to keep them in an active role. To those that know the truth and continue to support, that is between them and God. Many from this last group have shared their hearts with me, most are not there because they trust or have confidence in Vances. They have other reasons to stay. Reasons I understand, but reasons that wore too thin for us to continue at LFF.
As to what the Bible says about starting a ministry. Please note that I was careful not to say it’s against the Bible or that people of the opposite sex could not start a ministry together.
My point, which I obviously failed to make clear (sorry), is that this specific type of relationship violates the moral senses that God has given each of us. At the very least, it violates mine. What am I supposed to do when I see these two leaders of my church (Sherri and Kevin) out cruising around at midnight, on more than one occassion, having a grand ole time and my stomach develops an instant pit because a darkness has fallen over my soul? I wished I hadn't seen it because now what am I supposed to do with it? Then, when I try to be "biblical" and ask the questions. I’m told it’s ok that they do that, and I was wrong or even in sin for being concerned. That's just an example of how I felt my soul being put in conflict about what was truth. Was I the sinner? Did I cast the darkness across my own soul?
The Bible is not clear on a lot of points. I wasn’t trying to make a biblical point about opposite sexes. But I don’t think there are many spouses who would just let their loved one go gallivanting around like that without questioning the nature of their (the cruisers) relationship. This is just one example of a multitude of interactions over the years that could be brought into question.
If you are married, pick one person of the opposite sex that you would let relate (or in LFF terms "invest") in your spouse this way. Can this one person call your spouse indiscriminately, at all hours, to share what Jesus has shown them, or about a movie they want to see, or about any idea they have for the church, or a cool song they just heard or about a funny story that happened to them, or a hurt they have over some other relationship? Can they call your spouse before they share this with their own spouse? Can they know your spouses favorites (treats, foods, drinks, songs, hobbies) and bless your spouse with gifts according to that knowledge at random times? Can they acknowledge big events in your spouse's life, while you and your children are invisible to them? Can they hang out together and spend more time with your spouse than you or your children do? Can they pick or buy clothes for your spouse? Can they have inside jokes that only they know? Can they have TV programs or movies they must see together? If they look for your spouse at every church event or even sit with them? If all of this is non-sexual (except for some of the inside jokes) is it ok with you?
To understand this you must know the people involved. You must be aware of how the husband and wife related versus how the wife and friend related. Then to have them leave the congregation under so many obviously false pretenses. Or, I should say, surface reasons. The reasons presented (not by them, but by Vances) were not untrue, but they did not go to the heart of what was happening and certainly snowballed into a massive cover-up of the true situation. Then a new church work is started separate from the husband who is recovering from cancer, trying to give his wife space and yet still not reconciled.
It messed a lot of people up! Does that make sense? It is the type of relationship that cuts across your sense of decency when you witness it and it just “doesn’t seem right”.
If you understand and still don’t agree that is fine. I just wanted to make clear what I meant to say.
To the blogger who addressed Sherri’s abuse. I would be one of the last people to say that there wasn’t significant mistreatment of people all around in this situation. I will not argue that Sherri felt or believed she had to run to "survive". Although I don’t want to imply she was in physical danger with Karl but her body certainly wasn’t handling all the stresses her life embodied and she needed a change. I don’t know if I agree that she suffered any more than the rest of us. Maybe that’s true of what Karl put her through. But many suffered “abuses” at the hands of others for years that have seemingly had the same results in their life with physical and emotional disorders.
If you believe that Sherri was in physical, life-threatening danger from Karl, then you will not agree with what follows. If you KNOW she was in this type of danger, that goes to my point of how massive this cover-up has been. But, this is where I have struggled for years with the reasoning you present.
Please understand, I am not arguing with you or your experience in this regard. But I am trying, like many, to sort out how this makes any sense.
It seems like there is a lot of people interchanging the label of “mistreatment” with real “abuse”. Both of which I think took place at LFF, but not everyone falls under the “abuse” category. I know I was "mistreated". I can easily move past my own experiences, but I know many others experienced "abuse" and may not move on so quickly.
Even if Sherri did suffer so much, and I don’t deny her some suffering, was everything she did really controlled by fear of Karl? Was he that skilled in his wielding of force? Was every interaction she had with her congregation controlled by Karl? She didn't act like someone who was dominated by the fear of physical retribution. How could it be that bad and she never told the five-fold or the board of directors? Did Karl control all of them, all the time? Why didn’t she go to those outside the church that they (Bardens) were accountable to get help from? Peter Wagner? Peter Wagner didn’t even know she left Pullman or that Karl had cancer. Why? Was she too afraid of Karl and his retribution to get any help? Why didn’t Karl tell Wagner about their marriage or the cancer? What about the Raschinski’s? Did all the people close to her know about it but were also afraid of Karl? If so many people knew what was happening, why did they let it continue? Why did people let her get up on the platform and talk about how great their marriage was and that it was getting better all the time? Why did they let Kevin do his constant cheerleading of them and their marriage? I can’t believe, entirely, that she was a physically beaten down victim.
If she were the truly abused victim (not that she didn’t suffer from pressures), she would never dare to make a move in anything without his direction or approval. If you really know her, you know that she wouldn’t hesitate to make decisions or give directives free from his approval or opinion. She was masterful at redirecting his counsel or his teachings or his schedule (or anyone else's for that matter). Hundreds of people have experienced or witnessed this first hand.
She has trained her daughter Kari in this, too. Maybe not intentionally, but this strong pattern is modeled perfectly in Kari. Neither of them (Sherri or Kari) demonstrate submission to their husbands in a consistent or honest way. They have always felt free to challenge and change whatever they deemed necessary, either to their faces or behind their backs.
That just doesn’t fit with how I understand the “abused” to operate. I have also known many physically beaten down victims (not from LFF), and they were quite different than these two women. Please note that I am not dismissing either of them as possible victims of a different sort. I am not claiming to be an expert, just a witness to things that don’t make sense, especially if I am to believe, trust and support them.
I understand all the reasons Sherri would feel she needed to cut and run. But that does not exempt her from taking responsibility for her actions or how she did the “cut and run”. I know she has asked our forgiveness (years later) for pain she caused us and I believe she meant it. She has received that forgiveness. But she has not seen or taken responsibility for her part in a wrong relationship.
She doesn’t have to if she thinks it’s all ok. If Kevin, Karl and the rest of her family all think it’s cool the way the three of them are getting on, they can just go on the same way. But that does not mean any of the rest of us are required to just turn a blind eye, ignore our conscience, and support a current leadership that still operates without integrity on this issue and others.
I don’t know what would have been the best thing for Sherri to have done. But it seems to me if she had enough liberty from Karl to be out cruising at midnight, or take off to the west side, or start a church without her husband, she certainly could have placed a call to those she had claimed to be getting help from (Wagner or Raschinski) while she was still hear. It seems like her own daughters could have helped her, but does she trust them? Or didn’t want to cause them pain? There were hundreds of people who would’ve gladly helped her and Karl if we had been given the opportunity. She certainly had a tight group of friends who could have helped her. Any of these people could have “gotten her out”, especially if it were needed. Leaving wasn’t the problem. How it was handled is a problem.
There should have been honesty before the congregation about it. From her, from Karl, from Vances, from Kevin, from the sisters. There wasn’t. Sherri isn’t entirely to blame for this, but she did not set it straight, either. It certainly didn't help to have Kevin and Sherri end up in the same place and starting another church.
On the flip side, what is a congregation to do with such a messed up family at the helm?
Nobody would condemn Bardens for having marriage problems, if they had just been honest. But everyone knew they weren’t being told the whole truth.
Are the members to trust everything they’ve been told and keep faithfully plodding along?
It became very tiresome to try and figure out at nearly every meeting who was telling the truth and who wasn’t. That just isn’t a part of church life that we constantly want to be discerning.
It seems strange that the responsibility lay solely with the members to research, inquire and investigate (in an entirely biblical way) about the marriage and the money.
We have put ourselves into all of their shoes several times. The decisions we made for our lives regarding LFF didn’t come without turmoil that was based in the compassion we had for these people.
But we had to face a reality about who we are willing to support and follow and why. That required some judgment.
Being abused or mistreated (like Sherri) doesn’t mean you are free from judgment or the consequences of your decisions.
It is understandable that abuse colors and contributes to one's decisions, but it can’t be the justification for the whole picture of your life. We still know what is wrong and right in most situations.
Many of us grew up with abuse, just like Sherri or Kari. Some of us had even worse situations. But we still must live with integrity.
If we are too broken or abused to do this, we certainly should not be trusted as pastors.
If Sherri's reasons for her actions are because of such a caustic abuse, why is she involved in pastoring again? And why hasn't Karl gone after her physically for being in ministry with another man?
You see, it just doesn't all add up. Some people leave because they have been severely mistreated or abused, others, like us, just can't see where these leaders are living according to God's Word. That is the simplest litmus test. It doesn't line up with God's Word, so we're not required to "follow the leader".
(Please note, I am not letting Karl or Kevin off the hook as far as their part in this relational trinity. They have their own equal share in the mess. I am simply trying to address the questions posed about Sherri.)
"The Bardens, Vances and Kevin are not all a tight, unified group. There are many rifts between them. Karl filed some kind of legal action against Phil, or, at least some legal litigation occurred between them. I believe Phil and/or LFF paid him/them a settlement."
Is this true? What is this about?
If we knew what it was about, that means they would have told us. We don't really know and that's the way they want it.
Karl and Phil told us it was none of our business, even though it impacted the church.
Well, for someone who publicly repudiated, no, ridiculed, the authority of the courts in the church for many years, that is a truly amazing thing.
But of course, it was none of our business. It was and is a family business. Not our business, just our money, thank you very much and don't ask questions of the family.
In a way, this is a good thing. I can now depart in peace, knowing that Karl once and for all disdains the scriptures he pretends to uphold. See 1 Corinthians.
I believe it was Phil buying out Karl's share of proceeds for the church, in other words they forced him to retire so he had no more control over the board at the church.
a rhetorical question...what is the difference between that and the money changers in the Temple?
Or buying and selling indulgences, or buying Cardinalships, for that matter?
But we are writing on a small, overlooked area of the blog, the storm has passed us by, and nobody seems to care about Simony in the House of God.
actually, we do care, but finances at LFF have always been clouded and purposely obscured
Then everyone should withhold all contributions until things are made less obscure and the leadership is more forthcoming and financially accountable.
There should be record of legal proceedings such as filing a lawsuit, right? Anyone want to pursue it? Check records in Whitman and Jefferson counties, I believe. Sounds interesting and I would do it if I had the time right now. Maybe in the near future and then post it on the blog. Let the truth be known!
Wow! What intrigues. I left before 1990 and it looks like false repentance on the part of Bardens / Vances / Hunters to me.
Anyone know what became of Rod Marshall? How about Jan Koal?
I'm sad to hear about Sheri & Kevin - whatever that was all about. Nothing would surprise me.
This whole thing reminds me about Jim and Tammy Baker and that mess. Jim came clean, Tammy is still on TV...
I remember when Allan & Suzie Jennings left. She had gotten cancer and the Bardens shunned them. I suppose Bardens felt that Jennings must have been in sin for God to Judge Suzie with cancer. So does that now apply to Barden himself? I bet they found an exemption for themselves or perhaps pruchased an indulgence?
By the way - there is lots in the Bible, expecially the NT warning of false teachers and what to do. They are to be rejected. Their false teachings are to be rejected. They should be neither followed or funded. To treat Bardens, Vances or Hunters otherwise would be un-biblical.
When King David was exposed for his sin with Bathsheba what did he do? He did not evade. He did not say "it is a family matter". He did not say "it is none of your business", etc. David owned up to his sin and said plainly "I am the man". The Bible records the whole sordid affair in sufficient detail so the whole world could read about it and understand how opposite to God's ways King Davids decisions were.
So to Karl Barden, Sheri Barden, Phil & Kari Vance, Kevin Hunter, and to all others in leadership positions i say - it is time to repent. It is time to tell the whole truth, the complete truth and nothing but the truth. You will incure God's judgment if you fail to do so. This is your chance. God is patient but unlike him you are not eternal.
For those of us who have been willing to tell the truth i think God commends (not condemns) us. Just read the NT. Read the Book of Revelations and see where God commends one church for rejecting false teachers. Good job church!
I take no joy in saying any of this. My heart is heavy for the sake of the Gospel because their actions bring shame on the name of Christ. If you feel any glee then check your heart. I look forward to the feeling of relief i will experience when this whole spiritual train-wreck finally comes to a halt. I still feel pain and the losses i've experienced from their "ministry".
Bardens have always been evasive about money. Is there any question left what they worship? The Almighty Dollar. Someone should calculate the value of all the "free" work done by church memeber personally for the Bardens. When you consider their high salaries remember to place a fair value on the services and service crews. Services performed be volunteers who in most instances could not un-volunteer. What an incredible scam!
I'm sure they have enough ferrited away and hidden from the government. No doubt there is a stash in Switzerland, but this is mere speculation... I digress. (I like that whoever you are who says that).
Remeber it is by God's grace that any of us stand before him. But for the grace of God we would mess up the same ways Bardens / Vances / Hunters are still carrying on.
Grace be to you courageous Bloggers.
George N. Sally
PS - lessons for life 1) don't get roped into painting white fances 2) Don't drink anyone's doctrinal kool-aid 3) never turn your brain off 4) If your heart tells you something is wrong then believe your heart. 5) Keep on loving Jesus since he is the one who got you out of there.
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