Rebuttals
It seems this place is becoming read by more people everyday. We truly can not believe the response and are shocked by how many people continue to visit this place. It is not only frequented by us, the former members, but by those who are still there. We hope those who remain see the true motives here and take this at face value. However, it seems that in typical LFF fashion, the arguments are forming and lines are being drawn. As usual, those on the inside, are making more indelible, this line that separates them from us. And behind that line, the rebuttals are taking shape.
Now, it is not our desire to be hostile or create any animosity towards the truth by those who remain. Yet we feel it our duty to address the most common arguments making their rounds in the inner circles of LFF. Unfortunately, these are the same tactics LFF has always employed and these methods truly attest to the lack of change there. We have been fortunate enough to maintain many relationships with those who still attend. They have been informative and have been forthcoming with their own questions as well as that which is being said to discredit the truths of these pages.
It is not our desire to tell anyone how to think; instead we hope, in presenting the facts logically, people will be enabled to make their own logical decisions. It is so hard when you are surrounded by an environment that exerts so much control to see anything else. And that, among other things has been the reason for this place. We do not, now, consider ourselves enlightened or above those who remain. We instead, wish only to show the words here as fact and realize that unless you have experienced the things being discussed here, our words may seem esoteric. As this post unfolds we will attempt to address the arguments coming from current members.
The first argument is a classic. Not in the sense of timelessly good; instead it is so inadequate an argument it has a name. It is a fallacy, a mistake so huge it is taught to every entry level philosophy student as simply deplorable. Again the leadership is employing ad hominem arguments. Unfortunately, these arguments are at best, foolish. They are a personal attack that is irrelevant to the arguments on the table. Though this has been addressed in several places on this blog, LFF is again reverting to that which they have always known. So please, we beg of those listening to these arguments, disregard them.
First of all, the LFF leadership does not know who is maintaining this blog. Sure there are guesses, but they are just that; guesses. Besides not knowing who the administrators are, almost all of the comments and e-mails are posted anonymously. Sure the pastors are familiar with the more detailed e-mails, one author even intended that. But to throw out every hurt, every pain, and every tear because someone questions the authors’ character would be a mistake. Don’t let personal attacks on a writer blind you from the truth.
The next argument they present is in part, the reason why many of us have left. The fact that this rebuttal would be used to render the words of this site meaningless is reprehensible. Yet this is indeed the case. The statement goes as follows, “Most of the things discussed on this blog happened in the past, under the former senior pastors. LFF has changed and the new pastors are running things differently.” This is, to put it mildly, a lie. A majority of the administrators, and I would venture to say, at least half of the readers, left long after “the baton was passed.” Why? Because it is still the same abusive environment it has always been. There is one person in particular who was and is more duplicitous, abusive, and manipulative than the former pastors ever were.
The current senior pastors would like you to believe that there have been changes, and to a certain extent, there have. Yet, no change has come to the underlying problem and therefore, the manipulation, abuse, and lies continue. I am the most recently departed on this team here and I left four years after the “mantle” was passed on. By the current senior pastors, I have been lied to, put out, and degraded by numerous bouts of “righteous” anger. This is in no way unique to my situation. If one takes a moment to reflect on the people who have left since the transition, it is more than clear that the problems still exist.
Pastors, PCL’s, CCL’s, HCL’s (I know there are cell groups now) and church employees have all left under the new leadership’s watch. Why? Because of past hurts? In some cases; yes. But in many cases it was due to the fact that the current senior pastors are just as oblivious to the pain they inflict as their predecessors. They are unable to admit they have done wrong and when confronted, in love, with their failures, they incredulously deny the obvious truth.
Yet another argument is evidenced in the questions of a current member to a WSU psychology professor. People seem to feel the accounts and details on this site are exaggerated and tainted by emotional wounds. (It is interesting how LFF generally discredits the teachings of the psychology department. Yet, when the thoughts of a professor, unfamiliar with the details, seem agreeable, they form the basis of yet another shoddy rebuttal….)
**********************QUESTION********************************
Now, it is not our desire to be hostile or create any animosity towards the truth by those who remain. Yet we feel it our duty to address the most common arguments making their rounds in the inner circles of LFF. Unfortunately, these are the same tactics LFF has always employed and these methods truly attest to the lack of change there. We have been fortunate enough to maintain many relationships with those who still attend. They have been informative and have been forthcoming with their own questions as well as that which is being said to discredit the truths of these pages.
It is not our desire to tell anyone how to think; instead we hope, in presenting the facts logically, people will be enabled to make their own logical decisions. It is so hard when you are surrounded by an environment that exerts so much control to see anything else. And that, among other things has been the reason for this place. We do not, now, consider ourselves enlightened or above those who remain. We instead, wish only to show the words here as fact and realize that unless you have experienced the things being discussed here, our words may seem esoteric. As this post unfolds we will attempt to address the arguments coming from current members.
The first argument is a classic. Not in the sense of timelessly good; instead it is so inadequate an argument it has a name. It is a fallacy, a mistake so huge it is taught to every entry level philosophy student as simply deplorable. Again the leadership is employing ad hominem arguments. Unfortunately, these arguments are at best, foolish. They are a personal attack that is irrelevant to the arguments on the table. Though this has been addressed in several places on this blog, LFF is again reverting to that which they have always known. So please, we beg of those listening to these arguments, disregard them.
First of all, the LFF leadership does not know who is maintaining this blog. Sure there are guesses, but they are just that; guesses. Besides not knowing who the administrators are, almost all of the comments and e-mails are posted anonymously. Sure the pastors are familiar with the more detailed e-mails, one author even intended that. But to throw out every hurt, every pain, and every tear because someone questions the authors’ character would be a mistake. Don’t let personal attacks on a writer blind you from the truth.
The next argument they present is in part, the reason why many of us have left. The fact that this rebuttal would be used to render the words of this site meaningless is reprehensible. Yet this is indeed the case. The statement goes as follows, “Most of the things discussed on this blog happened in the past, under the former senior pastors. LFF has changed and the new pastors are running things differently.” This is, to put it mildly, a lie. A majority of the administrators, and I would venture to say, at least half of the readers, left long after “the baton was passed.” Why? Because it is still the same abusive environment it has always been. There is one person in particular who was and is more duplicitous, abusive, and manipulative than the former pastors ever were.
The current senior pastors would like you to believe that there have been changes, and to a certain extent, there have. Yet, no change has come to the underlying problem and therefore, the manipulation, abuse, and lies continue. I am the most recently departed on this team here and I left four years after the “mantle” was passed on. By the current senior pastors, I have been lied to, put out, and degraded by numerous bouts of “righteous” anger. This is in no way unique to my situation. If one takes a moment to reflect on the people who have left since the transition, it is more than clear that the problems still exist.
Pastors, PCL’s, CCL’s, HCL’s (I know there are cell groups now) and church employees have all left under the new leadership’s watch. Why? Because of past hurts? In some cases; yes. But in many cases it was due to the fact that the current senior pastors are just as oblivious to the pain they inflict as their predecessors. They are unable to admit they have done wrong and when confronted, in love, with their failures, they incredulously deny the obvious truth.
Yet another argument is evidenced in the questions of a current member to a WSU psychology professor. People seem to feel the accounts and details on this site are exaggerated and tainted by emotional wounds. (It is interesting how LFF generally discredits the teachings of the psychology department. Yet, when the thoughts of a professor, unfamiliar with the details, seem agreeable, they form the basis of yet another shoddy rebuttal….)
**********************QUESTION********************************
I am not a student, just a Pullmanite with a thought that's been bugging me, and I am curious to know if there have been any studies on it, or if it's common knowledge and I just don't know it. =) I wasn't sure how to find out, it's a bit too complex for a Google search, so I thought I'd just ask one of the professors in town, and your description seemed most like the question I have. I understand professors are very busy, so if you are not able to answer for awhile (or at all), I will understand completely. Since I am not a student or a colleague of yours, I expect you to treat my question as a low priority. =)
Okay, my question concerns the reliability of a person's memory as concerns traumatic events in their life. Meaning: say a person goes through an event that either seemed or was indeed offensive, abusive, or traumatic for them. It seems from what I've seen, that if the person does not "come to terms" with the event, or is not "reconciled" with the people or institution who caused the pain, then their re-telling of the event is often exaggerated, and made to sound worse than it actually was. In other words, can a person be trusted to relate the story with objective accuracy, if they still feel the pain of the wound? A second part to my question is this: when people do exaggerate a negative event, do they do so knowingly, to garner more sympathy, or have their memories really been corrupted, to believe the exaggeration?
**************************RESPONSE************************************
Thanks for your email. I'd be happy to try and answer your question. Reliability of memory is a funny thing. If 10 people witness a car accident and report it to police, the police tend to 10 related but differing reports. What this means is that each of us experiences the world differently. As a result we all have different interpretations and memories of an event. Hence, what psychologist have found is that the "accuracy" of a memory is less important than a person's "perception" of the event.
Some people are able to cope with traumatic things quite easily, others have a more difficult time. Moreover, some may be affected by events for years or even a lifetime. For example, many WWII veterans have remained affected by their war experiences for 60+ years. For people who are strongly affected by an event or a part of their life, there are several approaches to helping them overcome those traumas. The goal is not to forget the events but to reduce how much anxiety, anger, frustration, or sadness they feel when they think of the event. The key to treatment is that the person want to deal with their feelings. Interestingly, though we might expect that no-one in their right mind would want to continue feeling upset by things long past, many people are not willing to accept treatment - either because they don't think it will work, they don't want to put in the effort, or they don't want to have to deal directly with the thing that upsets them. Those who care about them can help by finding treatment, giving them emotional support such as letting them know that it will be tough but that they will be there for them, and - in tougher cases - by carefully asking the person about why they want to continue living with these feelings and how it fits in with their life (this is a leverage technique since most people will acknowledge that they don't want to live with such feelings).
In answer to your second question, there is attention that comes with feeling bad. For example, if you have a friend who has a cold but hides it, you tend to give them less sympathy. But, if that friend "appears" very sick, you are more likely to give them more attention. The same is true for these negative feelings. However, traumatic memories - based on real or exaggerated events - are common and hence, there are a lot of treatment options. There are many local psychologists right here in Pullman who can help with such things. Hope this helps and thanks for the question.
Assistant Professor
Department of Psychology
Washington State University
Interesting point. There is definite validity to the statement above, but without the supporting details this rationale truly has no grounds here. It is both short-sighted and cold to call the events here “exaggerated.” It would be easy to believe this if you have not experienced the abuse at the hands of the senior pastors. For, the events that have transpired between sheep and shepherd are so outrageous, they seem completely false. Nevertheless, that is not the case. I know not how many more accounts, comments, e-mails and heartaches need posting before some will see the validity of these things. Being that I, and all of the team members here have experienced first hand, the travesties posted here, I can assure you these accounts are fact.
As administrators, we have opted to keep most specifics under wraps. The details posted by others and from e-mails are graphic enough and should serve as ample evidence. Sadly, if any single administrator were to post a list of specifics, it would be even harder for those who doubt these events to see their truth. In many of our cases, the specifics are beyond comprehension. Though they happened to us and unfolded before our own eyes, it is still difficult to believe these things could have ever taken place. Again, ambiguity, but the truth can at times be too shocking. Thus, exaggeration is the furthest thing from the truth. Instead, we have taken the opposite approach and done our best candy coat events, lending diplomacy to our writing for fear of being labeled liars. As was said by an e-mailer, if we could walk you through this entire blog with a highlighter, we could show you specifics that we have witnessed first hand. And in these specifics are no exaggerations. So, please, don’t ascribe these accounts to misinterpretations and exaggerations. That only deepens the wounds of the hurting.
We are not seeking anyone’s sympathy. We don’t write these facts or recount our pains for the condolences of the public. Instead, this is our humble attempt at lending a voice to that which has been ignored for far too long. We seek not the sympathy of strangers or the reassurances of some digital world, we only desire the truth be known. To exaggerate the events related here would be pointless, a true waste of all of our time. It is sickening that any reader would assume embellishment on the part of the authors. This becomes even more disturbing when people are searching for the ability to forgive and trust again. There is a genuine desire for healing expressed on these pages and for someone to come along and label the wounds of the recovering as bigger than life is detrimental to this process.
Then there are the most vexing statements from the pastors. “Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. The people writing here obviously have grievances and they need to go talk to the person who has offended them.” Really? You read your Bible and felt lead to apply that wisdom here? How sad. It is obvious this site is not vengeful. That is not the point here. People are only relating truths; they are naming pains and hoping to help others. Yet, some pastor, someone who thinks they have a deeper understanding of human motive, labels this as vengeful. Since when is healing vengeful; have you even read anything written here? This site contains pages and pages of truth; there are no malicious intents here. To label this as vengeful or hateful is childish. It is nothing but a meager attempt to derail the truth with inapplicable Scripture. It is not our desire to “dethrone” the pastors; it is our desire to state the truth. We hope to help the hurting and save others from the same. To sit by and watch these things continue to happen would be shirking our duty before God.
As for talking about grievances with the offenders, this has been done. There have been hundreds of people who have tried to talk to the senior pastors and to no avail. Their observations fall on deaf ears; they are labeled as divisive. The truth is silenced by the senior pastors through unfounded accusations. There has been no lack of effort on the part of the departed; we have gone out of our way to resolve the travesties that continue at LFF. We are not harboring bitterness we are merely stating the facts. The onus lies not on the hurt but on those who caused this pain. The fact that many have forgiven those who admit no wrong is commendable. Yet, those they have forgiven still refuse to admit any wrong and that is atrocious. And though this was expected, it truly grieves us all. With a simple click, the pastors come, they read, they judge, and they leave. No apology, no remorse, no admission of guilt. What more can be said? The facts are here but they write them off with a host of mediocre excuses. To ignore the facts is one thing; but to say the truth is exaggerated, vengeful, or simply false only asseverates the gravity of the problems being addressed here.
Perhaps, in this site’s infancy, these words could be written off as false. Yet, to attempt to discredit the truth now shows serious mental deficiency. This project now contains the thoughts and accounts of hundreds. Who in their right mind would accuse everyone here of overstating the truth or of lying? This is absurd; it is like a defense lawyer standing before the jury calling hundreds of witnesses liars. Is this place a sham, is it truly a smattering of facts embellished by the writers for sympathy? No!!!! If there are those who still feel otherwise, we invite your thoughts.
Interesting point. There is definite validity to the statement above, but without the supporting details this rationale truly has no grounds here. It is both short-sighted and cold to call the events here “exaggerated.” It would be easy to believe this if you have not experienced the abuse at the hands of the senior pastors. For, the events that have transpired between sheep and shepherd are so outrageous, they seem completely false. Nevertheless, that is not the case. I know not how many more accounts, comments, e-mails and heartaches need posting before some will see the validity of these things. Being that I, and all of the team members here have experienced first hand, the travesties posted here, I can assure you these accounts are fact.
As administrators, we have opted to keep most specifics under wraps. The details posted by others and from e-mails are graphic enough and should serve as ample evidence. Sadly, if any single administrator were to post a list of specifics, it would be even harder for those who doubt these events to see their truth. In many of our cases, the specifics are beyond comprehension. Though they happened to us and unfolded before our own eyes, it is still difficult to believe these things could have ever taken place. Again, ambiguity, but the truth can at times be too shocking. Thus, exaggeration is the furthest thing from the truth. Instead, we have taken the opposite approach and done our best candy coat events, lending diplomacy to our writing for fear of being labeled liars. As was said by an e-mailer, if we could walk you through this entire blog with a highlighter, we could show you specifics that we have witnessed first hand. And in these specifics are no exaggerations. So, please, don’t ascribe these accounts to misinterpretations and exaggerations. That only deepens the wounds of the hurting.
We are not seeking anyone’s sympathy. We don’t write these facts or recount our pains for the condolences of the public. Instead, this is our humble attempt at lending a voice to that which has been ignored for far too long. We seek not the sympathy of strangers or the reassurances of some digital world, we only desire the truth be known. To exaggerate the events related here would be pointless, a true waste of all of our time. It is sickening that any reader would assume embellishment on the part of the authors. This becomes even more disturbing when people are searching for the ability to forgive and trust again. There is a genuine desire for healing expressed on these pages and for someone to come along and label the wounds of the recovering as bigger than life is detrimental to this process.
Then there are the most vexing statements from the pastors. “Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. The people writing here obviously have grievances and they need to go talk to the person who has offended them.” Really? You read your Bible and felt lead to apply that wisdom here? How sad. It is obvious this site is not vengeful. That is not the point here. People are only relating truths; they are naming pains and hoping to help others. Yet, some pastor, someone who thinks they have a deeper understanding of human motive, labels this as vengeful. Since when is healing vengeful; have you even read anything written here? This site contains pages and pages of truth; there are no malicious intents here. To label this as vengeful or hateful is childish. It is nothing but a meager attempt to derail the truth with inapplicable Scripture. It is not our desire to “dethrone” the pastors; it is our desire to state the truth. We hope to help the hurting and save others from the same. To sit by and watch these things continue to happen would be shirking our duty before God.
As for talking about grievances with the offenders, this has been done. There have been hundreds of people who have tried to talk to the senior pastors and to no avail. Their observations fall on deaf ears; they are labeled as divisive. The truth is silenced by the senior pastors through unfounded accusations. There has been no lack of effort on the part of the departed; we have gone out of our way to resolve the travesties that continue at LFF. We are not harboring bitterness we are merely stating the facts. The onus lies not on the hurt but on those who caused this pain. The fact that many have forgiven those who admit no wrong is commendable. Yet, those they have forgiven still refuse to admit any wrong and that is atrocious. And though this was expected, it truly grieves us all. With a simple click, the pastors come, they read, they judge, and they leave. No apology, no remorse, no admission of guilt. What more can be said? The facts are here but they write them off with a host of mediocre excuses. To ignore the facts is one thing; but to say the truth is exaggerated, vengeful, or simply false only asseverates the gravity of the problems being addressed here.
Perhaps, in this site’s infancy, these words could be written off as false. Yet, to attempt to discredit the truth now shows serious mental deficiency. This project now contains the thoughts and accounts of hundreds. Who in their right mind would accuse everyone here of overstating the truth or of lying? This is absurd; it is like a defense lawyer standing before the jury calling hundreds of witnesses liars. Is this place a sham, is it truly a smattering of facts embellished by the writers for sympathy? No!!!! If there are those who still feel otherwise, we invite your thoughts.
34 comments:
Character Assasination is the first tactic that censors use. Since this site is anonomous they have trouble doing that. Next they will try to tear down your arguements. If the people who post here are simply disgruntled and distrubed, then their arguements have no weight. For the leadership of LFF to admit that our arguements are more than that, they would also have to admit some guilt. It seems that either pride or blindness or ignorance (from the root no-knowing)keeps them from that.
So, their rebuttal seems feeble at best, and insulting at the worst. Do not permit anyone to make light of what you are going through. The pain is real, the hurt is real, and for those of us further along the path, the healing is real!
"As for talking about grievances with the offenders, this has been done. There have been hundreds of people who have tried to talk to the senior pastors and to no avail." As my husband once put it, if you know that a particular dog is prone to bite, how wise is it to stick your hand into his cage? I'm not saying that the pastors are caged animals (although perhaps they feel that way), I'm saying that they have been known to attack, so why bring it on by doing the so-called "Biblical" thing and bringing it to them directly. It's pointless and it's bound to leave you with major wounds.
First of all, I agree with the comment above. As I understand it, many of those that visit and post on this site did take our grievances through the “proper channels” at LFF, more than once, but to no avail.
But my thought in response to these “Rebuttals” is as follows:
I am reminded about Jesus when he was arrested and tried before he was crucified.
There were all sorts of accusations and questions thrown at him and his response? SILENCE.
Jesus taught us that no matter what people think or say, silence may be the best rebuttal.
If LFF chooses to address this blog as an attack on them or as persecution, then their best response and most Christ-like response quite possibly should be SILENCE!
The fact that they brought it up at a members meeting and now members of LFF are "arguing" for them, means that their response may not be the most Christ-like reaction.
I pray that this site won’t become a place of constant “rebuttals”, but a place of pure honesty and support for all who enter.
To the comment immediately above: How can you relate LFF to Jesus before his crucifixion? Jesus was innocent. LFF leadership has been caught red-handed by hundreds. LFF leadership is GUILTY as charged. Silence is shameful. It's far more shameful than all the shame that could ever be had by owning up to the fact they hurt and manipulated and abused hundreds.
To the actual post: You discussed the argument that the LFF leadership expects those offended to approach them and get it taken care of because that is the Biblical way. The Bible also says that if you KNOW you have offended someone, YOU are required to seek them out and seek forgiveness. This blog is more evidence of offense than they need.
Why doesn't the LFF leadership start their own blog? They should start off with an apology to everyone. They should tell the truth about what has gone on. They should come clean like David did in the Bible after Nathan called him out for adultry. Then they should get out their files and start making phone calls begging for forgiveness. They should relinquish their leadership positions in the church and give them to those who could actually lead with truth and honesty before the congregation and God. They should "begin at the beginning" like they made everyone else through all the years. I mean start from square one with Going for the Gold classes. They should NEVER lead again, just as a felon found guilty can never hold public office.
forgive and forget, forgiveness starts at home
The funny thing is, that is exactly why they won't admit their sins. They CANNOT relinquish control. They thrive on control. I try to think of what I would be looking for if I was still attending LFF. If the senior pastors would totally admit their faults and ask forgiveness to those that they have hurt, I might consider continuing to go to this church. But if they are too proud and self-righteous to admit that they too are sinners, then before God, I would have to leave. How can people continue to follow leaders that have no problem pointing out the sin in others' lives, but refuse to acknowledge the pain that they themselves have caused many. It is obvious that the members know about this place, are they continuing to blindly follow? Have their eyes not been opened? Members - read these stories for yourself, through your own eyes, not through your LFF trained eyes. Don't be critical of pain. Pain and hurt is REAL. It's okay to ask questions and think for yourself. You are an adult and it is possible for you to interpret the Bible for yourself. Don't just blindly believe what one senior pastor tells you to believe. Look at the fruit that has come from this church. Obviously there is a lot of bad fruit, you would have to be blind not to see this. Don't ignore it. Do what is right before God. Jesus loves you no matter what. Pastors - Jesus loves you no matter what, no matter how many people come to your church. I know He must be saddened by your ignorance and your closed eyes. Set yourselves free. Accept the forgiveness. Don't let your pride get in the way of wiping the slate clean.
what are you going to do if they never repent and ask your forgivness? is this going to control your life forever.
It may not control my life forever, but I am most definitely certain that it will control theirs for the rest of their lives. And I cannot just sit by and watch others be hurt without at least giving them fair warning. I have already forgiven them, but I will NEVER forget.
true forgiveness would mean that you drop it.
To forget it would be foolish. That would mean that I forget that it ever happened and risk letting it happen again.
The first time, shame on you.
The second time, shame on me.
True forgiveness means you drop it?
What kind of crap is that?
You only want it dropped because you're still doing the same destructive behaviour that required forgiveness in the first place.
I fall in a hole, and get out of it after breaking my leg, and I don't tell anyone that there's a hole out there?
That's just silly.
I've been up all night reading this entire blog. After attending LFF for a couple of years, I have been enamored by the "friendliness" and other showy performances of leadership. However, this site has opened my eyes to the truth of what is behind it all. Thank you! My family and I will no longer be attending there. The flags were raised by things that we have seen and in our spirits, but this blog served as confirmation of our feelings. Thank you very much!
I have a question for those who say that my pain causes my statements and feelings to be exaggerated. When I boar my soul to you about abuses that happened during my childhood, stories that you later used to manipulate me, did you treat my recollections as exaggerated by my pain? As I recall, no. You only did that when I spoke with you of your abuses to me. I spent years of my life before LFF and during my time at LFF having my feelings about the abuses that happened to me belittled to nothing by none other than the abuser. I learned to consider the source when having your feeling belittled and explained away. Oh and everything cannot be excused by “that wasn’t my heart.”
On the topic of forgiving and forgetting. I can forgive you for that slash that you put across my face but while it is healing and long after it heals I will see the scar in the mirror every morning. I know we have all sat around and showed off our physical scars at one point or another. They serve as reminders of where we have been and where we are going. Just the same as our emotional and spiritual scars.
By the way our service in leadership as well as 90% of our time at LFF was served under the Vance’s leadership. Our relationship with the Bardens was minimal. My pain comes from my experiences with Kari Vance. She knows this. I sat down and face to face told her my pain and my anger and my stories. I was not heard. I knew of others who had been before me with the same pain and the same abuses and had tried with no avail to convince them to change their ways. When we were not heard by Kari and Phil I left. Then I was lied about to the congregation. That doesn’t hurt me anymore because I have forgiven them and besides that it is so Junior High.
Our stories are real and happened over and over again. You cannot deny the consistency of our stories.
Anonymous said... true forgiveness would mean that you drop it.
Say for example you need to get some new tires for your car. You see an ad for Lou’s Fine Friendly Massive Tire Company and the Grand Opening of their new 2200 square foot showroom. You pay top dollar for what you think is a great set of tires. You then find out that they knowingly sold you a set of tires that were defective, part of a recall, and completely unsafe. You confront your salesperson and they say you’re just being a difficult customer. No of their other customers have had problems. Maybe there’s a problem with your car?
Certainly you should forgive them. Why get all upset about something that you can’t change anyway? They’ll still be selling tires. You just need to get some tires from somewhere else.
Later a friend tells you that they went to the LFFMTC 2200 square foot showroom and had a great experience and tells you that they’re thinking about getting some tires from LFFMTC, and if their membership application is approved, they’ll join the LFFMTC “Going for the Gold” tire program.
To not say anything to them about your experience would be wrong, and you’d feel terrible if they had an accident with the tires from LFFMTC.
Using your reasoning would mean that someone who was involved in the Mormon Church / Scientology / New Thought / Church of God / etc. etc. should forgive the particular church, but never tell anyone about their experiences.
Kari / Sherri / Karl / Phil /or whichever LFF leadership person(s) posted that “true forgiveness would mean that you drop it”, you may feel free to insult your own intelligence in a public forum, but don’t expect to insult mine. Nowhere does the Bible say or imply that we should not warn others of our experiences.
I again post publicly with my name, not ashamed to discuss this openly. Please contact me at lffblog @ danielbailey . com – I’d love to discuss this further.
Oh, and by the way, there is no such thing as “having an ought against someone”. Ought is Old English for ‘anything’. We would say in modern English “If you have anything against someone…” (If I hear, “if you have an ought against someone…” one more time, I’m going to scream ;-)
“Experience is a dear teacher, but fools will learn no other way…”
Ought is also spelled aught
from www.m-w.com
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English Awiht, from A ever + wiht creature, thing -- more at AYE, WIGHT
1 : ANYTHING
I liked the post that talked about the prophets prophesying a “great increase” at LFF every year.
“Prophecy” as practiced in the modern church is an interesting thing. I find it fascinating how they excuse inaccuracy as something that’s acceptable. I don’t recall that standard in the Bible.
I’m so sick of total silliness being pawned off as “The Word of the Lord”. I’m not saying that God never speaks to His people, but unless we KNOW that it’s God, we need to close our mouths and not ‘prophesy’.
Here’s a quote from www.agetwoage.com
{Begin quote}
However, he was quoted as saying that the general level of prophetic revelation in the movement’s “prophets” had an accuracy level of about 65 percent. Some prophets were as low as 10 percent accurate, he said, with some of the “most mature” prophets having a rating “approaching 85 percent to 95 percent.” Similarly, the lack of accuracy in speaking for God didn’t bother John Wimber, either. “Prophecy’s first expressions will likely be infantile,” wrote Wimber in the Vineyard’s fall 1989 Equipping the Saints magazine that was devoted to embracing the prophetic movement. “Babies are messy and they make messes.”
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8. The claims people make for revelations should not be criticized.
9. That unlike Old Testament prophets, New Testament prophets are often wrong. They may be 90% wrong; 60% accuracy is about the best they can expect.
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God’s prophets are accurate. Or they’re not God’s prophets. Period.
personally, i think there is a difference between 'dropping it' and 'forgetting it'. Yes, Jesus says to forgive and forget...but that is something we strive for everyday and may not be able to achieve...its all perfection--we can't be perfect, we can only 'try to be more like Jesus' right???
'dropping it' seems to have nothing to do with the relavance of this discussion. something/someone who has haunted or screwed with your life for 20+ years cannot be forgetton. reason being, ultimatimely, whether i like it or not it or not, LFF is/was a part of me. in some way they shaped me into who i am today.
lastly, although i am highly upset with the rash comment 'true forgiveness means you drop it'--i think i can make a little sense of it in my head. i think that while i may be able to 'drop it' (stop being bitter i guess), i can't forget it without taking away who i am today.
i value the person i have become after sorting through all the wrongs done to me at LFF, etc... i refuse to beleive that my first 18 years of life were wasted. over the past few years i have learned to search the positive things out and hold on tightly to them. if anything, i have certainly learned how not to and how to treat people, and i have also been able to make close meaningful friendships during my 'recovery' phase.
I agree. I am who I am today (partly) because of LFF. I will never forget the relationships, the truth of God's Word, Learning to listen to the Spirit for myself (even if it was judged by oversight), truly touching God in worship. I want to forget the abuses, and I have forgiven them. I can never forget the abuses, however. To forget them is to open myself up to falling in them all over again. To say that it is as easy as forgive and forget is to oversimplify the whole experience. If someone had simply dropped something on my toe, or said something that hurt a little, then no problem. But we are talking about much bigger wrongs. They go down to the core of who we are, and effect our entire world view. Many have asked "if God allowed our shepherds to do this to us, how can God even be real". That is not the kind of hurt that can be mended with a little bactine and a bandaid.
I think I understand how this kind of statement can be made. It is hard to accept that so many have truly been wronged (especially if you have devoted a major part of your life to LFF). To read so many messages that express the hurt, you just want it to stop. So you think "if people would just get over it" then they could get on with healing. Some of us have reached that place already. Others are just beginning to explore the wounds. We need to get all of the infection cleaned out so it doesn't get reinfected. Please bear with us and pray for us. Give us love and acceptance to find our way.
thank you.
Also, as so many have said already, thank you for this place to come and work through the things most of us have never dared to look at. (It is much easier to live with the scabs and not think about what is growing under them!)
I am saddened by all of the bitterness that I read about when I read this blog. I have attended Living Faith Fellowship for many years, yet why is it that I have not been mistreated. I have not had people calling me asking why I wasn't at church when I miss a service. I have been treated great. I love the heart to reach the masses with the good news of Jesus! No one has come to me and comdemned someone who has left the church and moved on. In fact I have only heard people say that they wish them well on their journey in life and hope that they find happiness. Jesus is the greatest symbol and example of love. I do my best to treat others as Jesus would treat me. I do now and will continue to ask Jesus what he would do as I seek counsel for my walk here on earth. Jesus is the light and love of my life. I will continue to attend Living Faith Fellowship as I have found it to be a wonderful loving place to be a part of.
I’m glad you have had such a great experience with LFF. Except you know that what you say isn’t true and really you’re in a position of leadership at LFF and you have to say something to try to stop the exodus of ‘sheep’, and make it sound like everything’s wonderful at LFF.
So these people that have posted here are completely off base?
If anyone says anything against LFF, it’s called bitterness.
OK, you're free to believe your version of reality. You just can't say that what I know to be true isn't true.
Or maybe you aren't in leadership. I didn't think I had bad experiences at lff until I was out...and then it was like the light came on in a room and I realized how dirty it was! I'm glad your experience has been good. maybe there has been a change. But don't you think change would be indicated by how they respond to us?
So, if what you say is true, and you have attended for many years and have been treated well, then you are happy to remain as long as you are not the one who is burned? You are either saying that we are a group of 100's of liars who have nothing better to do with our time, or you are willing to stay as long as the abuse stops at you. Think about it.
You need to ask the following questions of leadership:
Why did we build such a huge church only to not use most of it?
Why didn't we just go to multiple services if we needed more space?
Would you encourage me to take out a huge mortgage on a house that is much larger than a family in my income bracket would normally buy? That’s what we’ve done with our 2200 seat worship center.
Why would you spank a 3 month old baby for it’s ‘rebellious spirit’ when babies at that age have no concept of what you’re talking about and have no way to change their behavior?
Is any of what is said on this blog true? If so, what are you doing about it, and why?
Is it true that you asked a WSU prof a question about repressed memories when normally you pooh-pooh anything that comes from the psychology department? If so, why?
The answers to these questions will demonstrate the validity of what is being said here. If asking a question of leadership is sinful or divisive, then you should look for the exit.
bitterness? you are blind. since this site is about honesty and truth, I won't belittle your comment that much. For that probably is your truth. And at one time it was my truth. So I understand your cloudy vision and deception. But, my brother or sister, there will come a day... believe me... thank me now or thank me later...
i think we should give this person that benefit of the doubt. let's take them at face value, and not jump to the conclusion of leadership. perhaps you have not 'pressed in' enough to be burned. or perhaps, you are not on the 'leadership track'. most likely you are not a PCS kid. if one was to just attend this church, sundays and maybe wednesdays, there may not be enough opportunity for it to hurt you. perhaps you are stronger than all of us, and did not give into the condemtaion of not being involved enough. or perhaps, you are the perfect LFFer. i do believe there is such a thing. somehow, that place works for some people. i don't htink it fair to completely discount someone opinion...even though it may be painfully hard to believe. there are plenty of reasons why you may love LFF. this world is full of people thinking differently. i mean for christ's sake--there are a bajillion denominitons--everyone can find the one that fits them the best.
soooo...if someone truly believes LFF is right for them at this point in there lives, i can't judge them. likewise, i implore them to not judge me for my sturggles with LFF. please to judge me that i was indeed burned. i don't think i would just make these things up--nor would anyone else.
thanks for your thoughts.
I find it interesting that someone has expressed complete happiness with lff here on this blog. That person couldn’t have possibly expected a positive response from those of us who frequent here. As I read the comments following that post, I noticed that our first response was to jump all over them and accuse them of being blind. It makes me a little sad that even though we are so eager to help, we sometimes forget to use our tact and therefore, present our opinions as a personal attack.
I attended lff for many years as well and if you had asked me several years ago before I had left about my thoughts and opinions of the place, they would be vastly opposite of what they are today. What changed? I became educated on a collegiate level. What I read, discussed, and the topics I wrote papers on, caused me to question the sanity and methods of my current religious leaders. And the more I read and the more I researched, I realized there was something very wrong with this picture. I had begun to think for myself.
So things have changed on the surface…big deal…that doesn’t erase the past and our past shapes us and molds us into who we are today. Today is what we are dealing with…compounded by the fact, we still see evidence of it happening still. Every thing we do and say is driven by our past experiences. We would be foolish to not consider them now because we learned how not to or how to do things by those experiences. It only takes touching a hot stove once to know it’s not a good idea.
I can possibly see how someone might feel so content with lff because, until I was in college, I managed to stay under the radar so I was able to avoid a lot of the up front confrontations etc. that people are talking about. At that time I would have expressed the same feelings of happiness and love toward lff. I knew things weren’t good but I chose to suppress my feelings because they would have been classified as “sin” and nothing sets off the radar like sin.
It started with a horrible experience in grade school (at PCS) and I vowed from then on, I going to be invisible. And it worked. People left me alone for the most part. Does that mean I was happy and content with lff? I tried to make myself believe that it did. But is flying under the radar living life to it’s fullest? No it’s not. It is a life of fear, fear that I would be detected and hurt once again.
How a person manages to go to lff for so many years and not be able to see what is going on is past my understanding and past many of the other people here. I admire your courage to stand up with an opposite opinion. But as you can see we are all gung ho to “help” you see what is going on by challenging the truth you believe in a very direct and maybe tactless way.
It is not our desire to attack anyone. So in that light, I want to encourage you not to sit there and take what was said like a slap in the face but I want to challenge you to look at your surroundings objectively. Think for yourself, compare it with Scripture in context (very important) and then decide for yourself, is this place really helping me or is it hurting me. Ask questions, if they have nothing to hide, they will be forthcoming. As you can see, many of us have tried that route, and we have had little or no success. That might be a good indicator for you.
No church is perfect but I believe, that God has a place for everyone so whatever you choose is between you and God. As we have discovered, the best thing you can do to protect yourself is to have a mind of your own and think for yourself. Don’t let anyone take that away from you or tell you what to think or believe.
well said...
"you are so blind"
That's not judgemental or bitter sounding at all, is it? I left a church where I grew up in for 13 years under different but still painful circumstances. When I came here 4 years ago I was specifically looking for stuff like this. I still haven't seen it first hand. True, I do have a tendancy to not fully integrate into large groups, and it may be that I haven't shown enough "potential" for the leadership to take an interest in me. I will say that I got a bad feeling about P. Kari that I couldn't put my finger on until now.
To say everyone that still attends is blind is just plain not true. Some are, some one the wrong side of it, but others see what is going on and is trying to change it.
I agree here, I see what is also going on around me, but if we all leave who will help change it? When I see something fishy, I go to someone I am close to and tell them up to their face, now whether that changes or not I'm not always sure, but they know that they can not control me or make me blind. I came in skittish and I will leave the same way, but I trust that God will help me and others to take what comes their way with an open heart, but also judge it to the Bible and to what seems like truth and what we know is wrong. We all have consciouses (im sure it's spelt wrong)but it's if we listen to it. I do not agree with everything here, far from it, but I like so many do not want to start over, been there done that. I admire those who have left and are trying to find peace and healing in the ways that suit them. I am also so glad to hear that you did not turn from God yet pulled him closer, not sure what I would have done. Thanks so much for continually to open my eyes to more of what I had a suspicion was going on. I hope to not offend anyone, just state that just because we go to lff does not mean we are all blind.
I'm sorry that so many have been hurt. I don't discount your pain, and I don't judge you for leaving. The most important thing in my heart and mind is that people are keeping a relationship w/ Christ. It saddens me a great deal that someone would give up on God because of a bad experience w/ a human or humans. The Pastors and other leaders should never have been put on pedestals, and that has been dealt with.
I'm not sure why I'm still at LFF, but I don't feel called away from there yet. But I wanted to confirm that there are people at LFF who don't judge you for leaving. I don't hear negative things about you, and I'm pretty involved. Most of the time, I don't even know you've left unless I notice that I haven't seen you at church for a while. They're not talking about you at Members meetings or anything.
I hope that I will see you guys sometime just so that I can give you a big hug and let you know that you are loved.
I have been gone from LFF for 9 years and I too was pretty happy with my experience there (partly because I was so indoctrinated). When I first started posting to the blog, I too talked about my positive experiences (and I still value them), but as I have been here, my eyes have been opened to what I have been ignoring for almost 30 years. Many of the practices and motivations that I learned at LFF are not founded on scripture. I also learned that on the one hand, I was encouraged to think for myself and make my own decisions, but on the other hand if those decisions were not in line with the approved line of thought, then "I must not be hearing from God". I am not talking about scriptural things, but who to marry, where to live, what to study...Even if I should play in a band outside of church.
As I read Twisted Scriptures I am starting to see things that I have always accepted as what a "true Christian" believes that is really about manipulative control.
So, if someone talks about their positive experience at LFF, don't blast them out of the water, because if they are truly open to the Spirit they may see Truth here that they may not have. If I had been blasted away the first time I visited, I may not have spent the time to examine what I have experienced.
Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together, and love one another right now...
I attended LFF from 1981 to 1984...maybe 85. I saw alot and having been raised in a church had alot of questions. Things revealed themselves and I left. I am a social worker and spent about 5 years as a forensic therapist. Regarding memory and trauna...memory can exacerbate the traume. HOWEVER, that does not mean that the event did not happen. Forgiveness is healing, and healing comes in God's time. Keep the faith my brethren.
I attended LFF from 1981 to 1985(?) I saw alot and had alot of questions. Having been raised in the church (not LFF) I knew some of the things I had witnessesed were not right. Eventuallly everything became clear and I left. I have spent the last 20 years working as a social worker/counselor. Much of that time has been spent as a forensic counselor working with abused children. I will coment here about trauma and memory and as inmy court testimony I will be brief. Trauma CAN exacerbate memory; however that DOES NOT mean that the event did not happen. Forgiveness promotes healing, but both healing and forgivenss occurs in God's time. Be strong and keep the faith my brethren
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