An outside observation (via e-mail)
I’m not a person who has ever gone to LFF, except for the occasional concert. I heard about this site from a former member who is now involved in another local church, but granted, this person didn’t grow up in Pullman or go to LFF for very many years.
I’m a pastor with curiosity. People who leave our church stop by and visit from time to time, without eggs, which I think is pretty normal…but I digress. I don’t pretend to know the experience you all have been through but judging from the visits and responses, the experience isn’t isolated. Which begs the questions “why” and “how” could things get this out of hand? If you were a pastor of church, what would you have done differently, sincerely? I’m sure these question are addressed somewhere, but I couldn’t navigate to the answer. I could make a wild guess at a few answers, but you know what assuming does. I ask these questions with respect, complete sincerity, and honesty. Love it or hate it, I want to learn from it. If a church has the ability to hurt that many people, I want to know what went wrong in simple terms as to never do the same.
On a side note, there have a been a lot of former LFFers come through, all with the same results: they left pretending like nothing was wrong, but about 6 months or so into going to a new church that wasn’t going to try to make decisions for them, they realized that their minds where like programmed to act, look, and think a certain way, but that “way” wasn’t really who they were. It was a façade. They where shocked to have their eyes opened, and most became very depressed because they questioned who they really where, and if, in fact, their faith was real at all, or if it was just part of the programming. It’s a sad thing to see people go from being ultra secure to ultra insecure in a matter of months, and not being able to do anything about it. …just thoughts from a outsider that’s been told the same story by different people coming from the same place.
As for me, my God is my God, and I’m glad to go to a place called church with people who believe in the same God. My God shapes my thoughts, not my church, and for that, I’m glad.
28 comments:
What could have been done differently? What a loaded question. There are so many things. One thing I would like to mention is that the unity spoken of in the New Testament was a good thing. The unity at LFF was a manipulation. There was simply no room to disagree with any doctrine, no matter how far it was from basic salvation. Grey areas of the Bible were painted black and white for us by the pastors and there was no room to even discuss other options. The discussion was welcomed of course, but you were asked to "disagree agreeably" which really meant keep quiet about it and toe the line if you disagree. One example, tithing 23.3 percent of the gross of your income. Try that doctrine in countries where taxes are 80 percent. But it was taught as God's command clearly written in the Bible. Another example, "God created evil." I know at least one person who disagreed and left the church with their family because of they were weren't allowed to "successfully complete" the Catechism homework or class without being in unity with the doctrine of the church. How sad is that? It's so complicated because a pastor has to lead, and the pastor can't possibly make everyone happy. A congregation is full of so many differing opinions on how things should be done that it would be impossible to keep everyone happy. I guess the thing the pastors at LFF failed to do is offer simple respect for people who came to them with legitimate concerns and questions. If they had offered respect, and been honest with their answers, and their lives, then I believe we all could have respected each other and worked through our differences. Too many of us were told things that were flat out wrong, and then later told we missunderstood their heart, or they told us we were somehow in sin. They told us how they handled things financially, and we found out it was a lie. They told us how things were great in their relationships and we found out it was a lie. We all need to remember that pastors are human too, and it's OKAY! Pastors have to live on this earth too with all of the same temptations and family issues, financial struggles as the rest of us. As long as there is humility, and sincere love for God, and honesty in the pastor(s), I'm quite happy as a congregation member to forgive a ton. I just won't stay if there are lies, deception, mis-handling of finances, and manipulative tactics to control. I could go on, but I'm curious to see what others have to say.
One of the big things I would change is the governance of the church. The pastors are not accountable to anyone. They are a law unto themselves. I would make the governance more of an elected board or even an elected pastor. It would make the pastors accountable. The way it is right now, the board is answerable to the pastors but they are the final decision makers in everything. This is just too much power for one or two persons.
If you read the book "Twisted Scriptures" you can see many of the problems that LFF has. I heard that the pastors read the book and dismissed it. That is really too bad. It could have been the door to change. LFF has come directly from the "Discipling Movement". In fact Dr. Barden knows the "Florida Boys" personally. There were some changes back in the 80's when the error of the Discipleship movement was revealed, but it is so ingrained in the make up of the church that it would take some radical changes to get this error out of the church.
Any other ideas out there?
BTW, It wasn't until I started reading this blog and Twisted Scriptures that I saw how decieved we were (and yes, I got a little depressed). I left LFF almost 10 years ago!
"We all like sheep have gone astray." I was there as the church morphed from a sincere group of young believers striving to follow God in everything, into a sincere group who believed that following God meant following our leaders in everything. "Imitate me as I imitate Christ" "Be careful not to grieve the leadership because they must give account for your souls" We tried, we really tried, to practice what was preached. But, we were in fact imitating a messed up control freak who refused to deeply recognize his need for God in his own life. Instead, a strange doctrine of "perfection" was taught, i.e., our sin natures and even our ability to sin had been cut away in the waters of baptism. So, besides the guilt of sin, we had the guilt of failing to appropriate our new life in Christ each and every time we blew it in any way.
With "perfection" on the platform before you two or three times a week, and the unique peer pressure that happens when you attend closed "memebership" meetings, and the sins of others are paraded before you from time to time, it is easier to toe the line. If you leave, it will be your life on the chopping block the next time the members meet. It has taken me many years to get to a point where the opinion of my former pastors doesn't completely shadow my every move. I still have a part of me that longs for their approval, even though I know that it is God alone that I need to worry about pleasing.
In short, what happened was that one man adapted a few verses from the old and new testaments to create a controlling environment. The sense of stability and boundaries and black and white reality appeal to the lost and confused young people who are away at college for the first time. They get in, and their lives seem to have meaning and purpose, they are surrounded by people that are, or seem to be, loving and friendly. And they don't know enough to realize that abuse is happening until it is too late.
To the writer of the post, I hope that by God's grace you have been able to assist the former LFFers who come your way to experience the true love and grace of our Lord.
You asked what a pastor could do differently. In Acts 14, Paul and Barnabas set an example worthy of being followed. When the people wanted to offer sacrifices and worship to Paul and Barnabas, Paul and Barnabas refused to receive it. They directed the attention and praise to God, who alone is worthy to receive it. This didn't happen at LFF. When Karl began to be praised, he didn't direct people to God. He received the praise and adoration, came to expect it, and eventually to demand it. This also causes me to wonder why we thought it was appropriate to offer to a mere man the adoration that rightly belongs to God?
I grew up in LFF and PCS, and have been gone about 6 or 7 years now, and Itoo have noticed the depression that many former LFFers go through. Just to give a little bit of hope, you'll get through it! You'll find who you are in God, not in church, because they are very different. And if that is you, dont give up! God restores, even if it takes time.
What could be done differently?
To add to the comments above, to keep yourself from going the way of LFF, I would say: respect proper boundaries, and do not betray confidences.
Your comment from an outside perspective about the pattern of confidence turning to insecurity in those who leave was very interesting. I wonder why that is.
...people go from being so sure about everything (almost arrogantly happy because they think they have the secret)to unsure about everything, questioning what is real and what isn't.
But, that's not necessarily a bad place to be. When we think we know all the answers, and life seems so black and white, we are not open to truth. Even though I have been gone for a while, I am still very confused sometimes, but it doesn't feel like a bad place to be. There are areas of my life that work so much better now that I am out in the real world, things that make sense. However, this side of heaven, life will never totally make sense, there will always be questions that we don't have answers for, and we have to know that that's an ok place to be.
I think for me, I have been confused about even the strongest foundations I thought I had, thinking to myself, "If they were wrong about THIS, than how can I trust they were right about THIS"
ya know??
I found myself really going back to the Bible and establishing Biblical foundation AGAIN for myself based on the Bible...
I have to keep reminding myself that God cannot be the author of confusion, it goes against his character, so... if I am confused then... It can't be from God
Food for thought I guess
This is the Nicene Creed which the Church Fathers agreed on in the 4th Century. I think you will find that many Christians can agree that this is truth. (It was after the Church split into east and west, so it might not be agreed on by the Orthodox churches. I don't know for sure) but it seems pretty basic to me.
The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
I did a little research on the Nicene Creed and found this:
THE NICENE CREED
The Nicene Creed is the most widely accepted and used brief
statements of the Christian Faith. In liturgical churches, it is
said every Sunday as part of the Liturgy. It is Common Ground to
East Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists,
and many other Christian groups. Many groups that do not have a
tradition of using it in their services nevertheless are committed
to the doctrines it teaches.
(Someone may ask, "What about the Apostles' Creed?" Traditionally,
in the West, the Apostles' Creed is used at Baptisms, and the Nicene
Creed at the Eucharist (aka the Mass, the Liturgy, the Lord's
Supper, or the Holy Communion). The East uses only the Nicene Creed.)
..."The pastors are not accountable to anyone. They are a law unto themselves..." a rebutal to the comment made earlier. I can see where you are coming from in your thinking. If you have ever been in a leadership position in a job. You would know that what you say goes or is like you say "law". And with every dessition you make, weather right or wrong. You are judged/critised by what you say and do. Now coming from a empoloeey's view, you know you will always question your authority. i think that you need realize that in fact everything they do is put under a microscope by everyone. And the way you act to it is what they have to deal with. i Hope y ou can understand this. im writin this fast becase i dont have much time. but i hope you can realize the point im trying to make.
Maybe I wasn't clear when I said the pastors aren't accountable. I meant at LFF, the Head pastors act as if they aren't accountable. I know that ultimately they are accountable to God. They also should be accountable to their sheep. But at LFF you are not allowed to disagree with the pastors, or question their actions.
Here's a quote from Twisted Scriptures:
"Disciples defending their disciplers have told me that they would not obey anything that contradicts Scripture. This is dangerous thinking and, besides, it misses the point. The abusive discipler does not usually tell victims to go contrary to Scripture. Compare this to a non-controlling discipler who would not pressure you to obey anything that was in conflict with your conscience. Under such a discipler, you are free to reject a broad range of advice without feeling guilty.
Controlled disciples would probably say the discipler only wants them to pray and get God's leading on non-moral advice. However, they feel pressure to agree because they are taught that:
1. their discipler probably knows what is best for them
2. going against advice probably indicates lack of humility, teachableness, brokeness, etc..
3. Their discipler has more maturity than they do
4. going against the discipler's advice may be going against God
5. they need to obey disciplers, not just Biblical mandates, but in all areas of life"
This is the subtle manipulation that everyone in LFF has been under. It is no wonder that people are disillusioned when they find out they have been used by those who should have taken care of them. We were under constant pressure to measure up (not just in what the Bible says) but we had to write in our spiritual notebook, use our schedules, never criticise anyone in leadership, go to three services a week (Wed, and two on Sunday) be on service crews, serve the pastors, special events....We had no time to even think!
Hopefully all of this will help you to know where we are all coming from. Somehow, we were led to believe that this is "simple" Christianity!
For me the simplest terms for the failure of the pastors at LFF is incredible arrogance and willful disregard for fellow humans. I believe the these two things have blinded them to the truth about themselves and what they have done. It has led them down a path where they have mistreated people and been part of a huge deception which involved ungodly relationships and the financial/administrative intergrity of the church leadership.
But, they still can't see it. They still don't get it. They still think they are right. They still think they understand and have answered all the people who have tried so hard, to tell them in so many ways, that these two issues have got to change. They still believe they have more integrity than all the rest of us. Even when we have watched and identified, to them, the lies.
There was/is a horrendous lack of humility about who they are and what capabilities they possess. Both the founding and current pastors (this refers to husband and wife teams) have a deeply ingrained belief that they possess more discernment, more wisdom, more skills and more compassion than the rest of the kingdom of God combined. I am not trying to be sarcastic. This is not an exaggeration about what they have stated about themselves. If you were there, you know what I mean.
Unfortunately, most of us were required to believe it, or at least submit to it (since it was not believable) in order to continue doing what we believed was "living for God".
Most spiritual insight, acute intellect, exceptional giftings or acts of kindness displayed by those beneath them had to be quickly quashed or shut down by their harsh criticism in order to keep people down under the "esteemed" roles of leaders.
Not to say encouragement didn't happen. If you were one of the "chosen" or if you were needed for some special project at hand you might receive some encouragement. Remember, I am talking about specific leaders. There was lots of encouragement among peers and friends. It wasn't a totally cold and hard place or none of us would've stayed.
Those with the courage to challenge the leaders or even ask innocent questions were also berrated into submission or "squeezed out" of the fellowhip.
Because of this arrogance they never really submitted to any checks and balances for themselves. There were token balances of power presented to the congregation, but we did not know they were only "token" until much later.
These leaders also believed they "loved the deepest and the best" of anyone in the kingdom. Sadly, it's just not true. They were always amazed by the number of people who were hurt in their wake by their callous treatment inputed to those "under" them. They always answered in such a way to make the follower feel like they had sinned by being hurt. "You did not understand me or my heart or my wisdom" or "this is just how ministry training works."
Even though much has changed on the surface at LFF, and these are good changes, the two core issues haven't. The changes that have happened came more in a sense of acquiescing, "let's make it feel better and keep the people here". If these changes hadn't happened they would have lost the whole church at once, rather than the slow trickle now turning into a steady flow.
The amazing thing to me is that God has allowed them to remain blinded, deceived, or whatever word best describes it. They are sincere in their beliefs about themselves, their intentions and their actions. They really believe that we are a wicked web of disgruntled, back-biting, murmurers who don't have any merit and have turned our backs on them in their greatest time of need.
Incredibly, even in my own conversations with them (in the past year), they believe that "they"(LFF)are the only reason people have "become as good as they are" and that LFF doesn't get the "credit" they deserve for having "made these people who were nothing into something." They reminded me that I was included in the being "nothing" until they got ahold of me.
Well, I wasn't a nothing. I was a precious creation of God. A creation He delighted in. I was skilled, intelligent and great with people before LFF. A fallen creature, to be sure, but not one that lacked existance before my LFF experience. I was a Christian before. For those that got saved there, God could have used any instrument to draw you to Him. Know that LFF wasn't the key to your salvation, but His Spirit drawing you to Him was.
I think it is easier to identify what went wrong or is still wrong. But it is hard to put one answer out there for everyone who is hurting. There are many different types of experiences people had at LFF.
You have the PCS kids who didn't have a choice about growing up there. Their experience is very unique.
You have the parents who regret losing those child-rearing years and even some of the best years of their marraige.
You have those in the various mentoring/leadership programs.
You have those who were called "friends" by leadership and slaved for years to gain acceptance of those leadership "friends".
You have those men who were chosen by specific leaders for twisted soul relationships. These relationships warped even the marriages of those men to the point that their wives never fully owned their husbands in the way God intended.
You have those who were never high class enough to be acknowledged seriously by leadership but were valued for their labor.
There is not one pat answer to each group. I'm sure I don't have a complete list here. Some pain goes much deeper than others. Some can still relate to God, some can't. Some can forgive and just move on. Some can't. Some can leave LFF. Some can't. The problems are easy to see, the answers are not black and white. It does all stem from some disregard for fellow humans on some level.
Many of these people overlap into more than one group. These people served so faithfully, so willingly, so sacrificially, for so many years. They honestly loved each other very deeply. Yet they were made to feel they never quite cut it and still had so much sin and immaturity to get out of.
Many people gave everything. Yet these leaders still genuinely believe they have sacrificed more than anyone else. It's not a contest. I'm not trying to say who deserves what accolades. But for so many people to have poured out their lives and still be made to feel that all of this church mess is their fault and the leaders are innocent..... seems like the Bible holds the shepherds more accountable than the sheep.
I also need to say that all the hurt I may carry does not exempt me from my need for forgiveness and the precious blood of Christ. In the midst of the failure of these leaders, I was still a sinner who needed Jesus everyday. Still do. Not all of my problems stem from LFF.
In all fairness, maybe there is more understanding in the hearts of these leaders about what they have done. Maybe they have taken more responsibility before God. Maybe they see how they have treated those He gave them to care for. If this has happened, there will be evident fruit that follows such an understanding. There will be no question in any of our hearts if this ever happens. But, I can only hope and certainly can't stand around waiting for it.
Regardless, I want to live my life treating others with the dignity and respect they've earned just by being His creation. Beyond that to the greater commission, I want my life to reflect the great love He has for them to draw them to His salvation. I still want to stand before Him and hear Him say "Well Done".
The sad thing about all that busyness is that the LFF leadership thinks that’s the way it should be. never mind they don’t have to get up and go to work on Monday morning, heck, they’ll have someone come over and prepare their breakfast and fold their underwear. ;-)
Years ago, at the church I attended that was somewhat like LFF, but not quite as intense (and of course not as spiritual ;-) the pastors decided that they would cancel the Wednesday evening service with the instruction that people were to use the time for family time, invite your neighbors over for dinner, and other things like that. I look back at that one thing and I realize that it was such a blessing. Thank God church was now only once a week! They had cancelled the Sunday evening service a few years earlier.
Even now, I tend to be too involved. My wife and I have speaking roles in the big Christmas production (something as good as you’ll see from a touring Broadway company, I might add :-) so we have rehearsal right now Sunday and Wednesday evenings, and sometimes Monday nights. Of course, the Christmas production is only seasonal, so it’ll be over in a month and a half.
Tuesday, I have a men’s study meeting, Thursday is Boy Scouts, or worship team rehearsal, and if I’m playing on worship team, I also have rehearsal starting at 2:30 pm on Saturday also and then the service gets out at around 8 pm and then it’s back Sunday morning at 7:45 am for another 5 hours of rehearsal and performance. But that’s fun, but it’s still tiring after awhile.
Last week, I had to just skip a couple of things because I had a thesis paper to write for my Army Reserve ILE class that I’m taking and was due last weekend.
But did you notice there were no underwear-folding crew times in there ;-) And I don’t miss it either ;-)
I'm glad that you enjoy your busyness. Being busy should be a choice. And if it is a choice now at LFF that is great for everyone.
However, busyness was not a choice when I was growing up . . . Sadly enough to say, I have become very lazy now. I don't like to leave my home to often if it requires service. Oh, well. Maybe that will change in the future. Who knows.
Here's the question you have to ask when pastoring....whose kingdom are you building? Probably the biggest problem at LFF was that we were building a family (aka the Bardens) not the church. when you are building a church, you are building people, not a building. When you are building people, you are going to pour into them, lay your life down for your people, help them, love them, and all those things. That includes letting people go if that is what God is speaking to them. Ultimately, you are not their Savior. You didn' die on a cross for them and you can't save them. Since you can't save them, you can't control them. If you can't be savior, you can't be lord either. Those positions are reserved for God and God alone.
The person in the above post is not at LFF (and hasn't been since the 80's) he was just relating that you can still get too busy at church. One song I recently heard talked about the "disease to please" (BTW, the song is called "N-O is my new yes"). It so easy to get into this attitude. I personally have to continually evaluate what I am doing. I have choir practice every week, I have a drum circle on Fridays, once a month choir has hospitality at coffee hour. Other opportunities come up, but I have to remember my family comes first. LFF taught that, but they didn't leave much time to live it. The 80's lie of quality time is more important than quantity of time.
Matthew, chapter 19. The Bardens may have never read this, unfortunately......
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Of all the churches I have been to in my life, this seems to be one of the greatest scriptures ever used by the pastors. However, directed "at" the pulpit, these scriptures seem to take on different meanings. Also, most churches consider pastors exempt from these passages, even where pastors "more than middle-income" compensation for their pastoral duties.
Why is it that one family has mulitiple residences valued in the millions of dollars, driving mercedes benzs and other high dollar vehicles?
Especially when many, well-earning congregation members live in mobile homes and drive run-down vehicles, so they might give more to the church?
The greatest leaders of all time led by example.
Jesus Christ, who gave his all so that the rest of us may be rich with life in this kingdom and the next.
Not just Christ, but great military leaders ALL led by example. Alexander the Great, McCarthur, Patton. It's easier to do something you are afraid of if you see your leaders blazing the path in front of you.
This verse is also fitting concerning "giving" to LFF:
Matthew, 7:3
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
By the way, the comment at 2:03 PM speaks for me as well, and very eloquently. You ought to consider posting it.
Getting back to whoever posted the comment on the Nicene Creed, I thought the Eastern and Western Churches split over the "filioque" clause, the clause that states that the Spirit proceeds from the Father 'and the Son.' This was due to a little 'Arianism' in the Eastern Church.
If true, I think the only creed the Western and Eastern Churches could say today would be the Apostle's Creed.
Honestly, I find the church history more fascinating than dissecting LFF. But, there is a time and place for dissection, I suppose.
Oh, sorry, the only Creed the Eastern and Western churches could say (i)together(i) is the Apostles Creed, because the reword of the Nicene Creed with Filioque Clause I think helped result in the separation. :)
Sorry that I wasn't clear on my last post.
I haven't been at LFF since 1981, but I was trying to say that I still tend to get over-involved, but nobody is forcing me to do it.
I could drop out of drama team, worship team, and some people would be sad to see me not playing, acting but they wouldn't hold my service as a condition for friendship or membership.
dB
Your busy involvement is totally your choice as was anyone's at LFF. There is actually nothing wrong with choosing that life when you know you are serving a truthful cause. That is the main difference. Busy isn't always wrong if you are living properly before God. But if that busyness was based on being told lies, you find you weren't really choosing what you thought. You weren't given all the facts needed to make a real choice. Make sense? If you trust the integrity of your leadership, be free to enjoy that service. There is joy to be had in sharing those experiences with other believers. Life will bring changes that will adjust your involvements. Be sensitive to His Spirit when those times come.
Blessings on your giving heart!
Back to the discussion on the Nicene creed: The creed was developed at the first ecumenical counsel in the 4th century. It sets forth the bare bones of true Christianity. In the 900's a church in Spain added the filoque clause, adding " *and the Son" to "And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father*; Who with the Father and Son together is worshipped and glorified...."
The Roman church adopted the phrase into the creed, while the four churches of the East did not. Rome split from the others, and Protestants and Anabaptists split from Rome. Enough church history for now. See www.oca.org for more info if you are interested.
Something to keep in mind is that I really don't think God has allowed the pastors to stay blinded about what has happened, and the pain that has been caused. I believe they cannot except the words on these pages as true because they think they know who we are and the "truth" about our lives. It is the fact that our stories tell who we are to the point that it doesn't give validity to the issues any longer. That goes right to the heart of one of the most major issues at the church. We were expected to be contrite and repentant right away when confronted by leadership. If deliverance from the "sin" was not had at the time of revelation from oversight, there was an incredible guilt that was present in every aspect of life. Because the pastors have more knowledge, training, and the Holy Spirit in them, and also because they know in large who is writing on the blog, they can dismiss the problems as not valid.
Anyway, a thought that has been on my mind for a while and the initial question has helped bring to fruition is this. When someone goes into the military (for lack of a better example), they know that in boot camp there will be yelling and screaming, there is a time of breaking a person down so as an individual they loose all identity and conform to the team that they will be a part of. The leaders in the military need to know that in a dangerous situation their orders will not be questioned and there will be complete obedience. I associate my experience at LFF with a military like experience, except for the fact that I didn't sign up for the military, I signed up for church. If I wanted my ability to choose to be taken away, and my sense of individuality to be taken away, I would have joined the military, not the church. Please hear that I have nothing wrong with the military, in fact I am a huge supporter, but you know what you are getting into with the military. It is written on the "contract". At LFF it was like a frog in a pot of water, where the temperature moves up so slowly that you dont know its boiling until you have no life left in you. I was pulled in by the outward friendliness and companionship, and no where was it written "its my way or the Long Island Express way." Unfortunately after the relationships are established, you start thinking what a wonderful place this is, and before you know it you don't associate with former friends, you have a split with your family, and they wonder what is happening to you, you change your dress, hairstyle, ect. and you are done for. It has happened over and over and over. Its like false advertising. You look at the website and see all kinds of smiling faces and wonderful people just having the time of their lives, but what they don't show is the back rooms and offices where the discipline takes pleace and the hours of sobbing trying to figure out how life that you thought was being lived in devotion to Jesus, all the sudden doesn't match what the pastors think life should be lived like, and you are such a sinner. It all goes downhill from there. If you are going to be like the military in the way the church is, say it up front, don't lure people in with the front of friendliness and we just love and accept everyone, and then do everything in your power to change them and use them once they are in.
One more note. I wont get into it now, maybe when I have more time, but something else I was remined of while writing, is the practices taught in JCD's about how to "bring people in." Being out for a while has brought me to the realization that I was taught a lot of great "Sales" techniques while in Evangelism training. If only the transcriptions could be posted from some of our JCD meetings on how to bring people into the fold, the church would be done for.
Trying to do God's work using man's methods characterizes Barden's church. This sort of pseudo spirituality does not wash with God. Remember that a prostitute smiles at her next victum! Said the spider to the fly...
George N. Sally
Dr. Barden should never have been installed as Pastor of any church - he was a young christian in terms of number of years as a believer. He felt nothing when he was baptised in the Holy Spirit (I think this was actually important). 1 Tim 3:6 warns us, speaking of installing church leaders "He must NOT be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil" (emphasis added). I think "conceited" is an apt word to describe Dr. Barden.
George N. Sally
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