Baptism
In the 'Question of Forgiveness' blog Nikkoly said
"I was just baptized again this past Sunday as a
consecration to the Lord, to free me form religious
bondage, spiritual abuse, and half truths that kept me
in despair for WAY too long. I came out of those
waters with even more love and freedom. I highly
recommend it for any who were baptized at LFF."
For my husband and I, even though we don't agree with
a lot of what goes on at LFF, both of us feel that our
baptism experience was sincere and between us and the
Lord. We actually left a church recently because they
told us that unless we provided papers to show we were
baptized that we would have to get re-baptized to
become members. When we told them our reasonings for
not wanting to contact LFF, they insisted that we get
re-baptized no matter what. That didn't sit well with
us because to us baptism is between you and God, not
you and a church and it's certainly not to obtain a
piece of paper.
We now have philosophical disagreements with the
speaking in tongues that was to happen "by faith" as
you rose from the waters (if you hadn't previously
been baptized by the holy spirit) but despite all that
I feel that God used my baptism, even if those
preforming it weren't totally correct, my God is big
enough to use that experience for his Glory. I don't
personally think I need to get re-baptized. Just as I
no longer believe that a saved person can be possessed
by demons and need deliverance; another LFF teaching
I may have been taught some crazy wacked out doctrine
at LFF, but I think over the years God heals wounds
and rights wrongs.
What are everyone's thoughts on the subject?
22 comments:
I was sprinkle baptised as a baby, immersed at LFF, immersed again at LFF for circumcision of heart...I think I'm adequately covered. I don't think the faults of LFF kept my baptisms from being valid, and it's actually one area where I haven't experienced great doubts. Now...speaking in tongues and baptism of the Holy Spirit...that's an area where I am greatly confused.
I thought the strangest part of baptism at LFF was the pre-bapitsm meeting where they have you confess everything you have ever done. I remember telling the pastor about pre-marital sex I had before getting saved. He proceeded to ask who was on top, how many times, how long etc... I'd hate to know who all looked at that report and if it is still in my file at LFF. What a scary place!
To clarify:
I did not intend to suggest that our baptisms at LFF were not valid. My baptism experience was awesome at LFF--even the prophetic words shared still hold true today and was one of those experiences with the Lord that glued me to Him and helped me survive that chapter of my story at LFF. I was led to be baptized again as an act of consecration to the Lord (between He and I) and had faith to believe that God would cut away all that 'junk' in my life and HE did. I didn't get baptized again thinking that it didn't hold or wasn't good enough the first time, or whatever. Just a simple act of faith led by His Spirit, not other's ideas. I should not have suggested it to others from LFF please forgive me-I was speaking out of my desire to see others experience this 'cleaning out' too-not good enough reason to share--again, forgive me. God is faithful to lead anyone in that way if HE so desires. I have been away for 14 years and He just led me to that, so He is pretty good at leading us and I just got a bit overzealous...yikes, when my flesh stinks you all get to know my name. Lucky me! :) I never wanted my words to make others from LFF doubt their baptism...that wasn't the motivation for my sharing, but re-reading what I wrote I can see how it sounded that way...:(
The pre-baptism meeting was weird...it's the only part of that experience that still makes my tummy ache. Oh well, won't fall for that one again!
Nikkoly
I personally lied my GG guide at the pre-baptizim meeting because I knew in my heart that it was none of her business and that it was between me and God. I never felt that was sin.
Well, thankfully my pre-baptism meeting was with someone who has since died so I guess my "secrets" won't come out. She didn't write any of it down either. I really don't know why they had to drag all that out of us. I guess so we could feel all brand new again but really they should have asked the questions but let us repent silently and not have to tell another person - it was so humiliating. That was part of the control though, humiliate, then ingratiate.
I had a similar experience with one of the previous commenters in the pre-baptism meeting. Mine was with Kevin Hunter, and it got very personal. He did take notes throughout the meeting and asked all sorts of questions which were very personal.
I remember a lot of questions about horoscopes and Ouija boards and stuff like that, but he rifled right on through all of those questions.
Then came the sexual history questioning. I don't have that complicated of a history, but this part of the questioning took forever. I want to say it took 30 minutes at least, but I think my memory is tainted by how much I dreaded the session, and it may not have been quite that long. I remember him asking about every person I had ever had sex with, even the most minor of instances. Even stuff that really isn't sex. Every action. Ever position. Every place. Then he asked about masturbation. He wanted to know everything. Every person I ever thought of. What a weird conversation. He wanted the most detailed information about all of it.
I don't know why this applied to baptism, or why they felt they should know everything, but I thought I had to be honest or my baptism wouldn't work. Now I know that baptism covers all of that anyway, so it really shouldn't matter even if my heart is right.
It does horrify me to think that all of the notes that he took are still on file somewhere.
I'd like to see the notes on those who asked us the questions. They acted all high and mighty and sinless but I'm sure a few years earlier they were in the very same position.
No one should ever have to share those sorts of things with a church. Its down right an invasion on privacy.
Some of the info they know about has to do with people's medical conditions. I dare them to make those public they'd have so many HIPPA violations.
I don't think they have the guts to use any of that information against ex members. They're more concerned with maintaining control of the current members
Yes, Kevin Hunter could bully a confession out of just about anyone, whether they felt guilty or not. In the end, though, that kind of bullying doesn't lead to real cleansing, just resentment and a bad testimony for church leadership.
My husband and I started attending LFF when we were in our early 50's. We came from similar backgrounds....had been raised in the church, etc. We had both been baptized...he in his late teens and I in my early thirties. We were STRONGLY encouraged by all of our "cheerleaders" to start at the beginning and take all of the classes ( as if none of our previous teaching counted for anything)! So we put our tails between our legs and endured being counseled by much younger WISER saints! (a side note): Our HIGHLY esteemed GG guides have since divorced...go figure...during our many required mtg's with them in their home we were sadly made aware of the Mr's control issues...he ruled with an "iron fist". In hindsite we should have been counseling them :( We desperately tried to "overlook" a lot of the "red flags" that were waved in our faces. Our pre-membership interview was one of the WORST experiences that we have ever had to endure in our 40-plus years of marriage....and what was going on with "Sir Kevin"....he kept excusing himself to go to the washroom????????Very suspect and just plain creepy! Thankfully our membership PRIVELDGE was denied! We didn't measure up to their Cultish ridiculus requirements....YEAH! We attended for awile longer and thankfully finally left! Not one person ever called to see how we were or even if we were still alive? We have since referred to ALL of our non friends there as "Rent-a Friends". And no, we haven't moved from the area as so many had to in order to escape LFF's GRIP and CONTROL. Was it a "REAL" experience? If it wasn't for the HUMOR in all of it I would say that those 7 long years had been a big waste of our time and energy...BUT we do laugh alot about all of our wacky experiences...folks in the "real" world are appalled when we tell of our "crazy" time spent there. We are HAPPY in our freedom and are not involved in an organized church....maybe someday...maybe not. God understands and loves us regardless....and we remain in close fellowship with him. Evertime that I hear of yet another family "escaping" I rejoice. Recently I've heard of two families moving back...now that makes me cringe...Yikees...I want to do an intervention but I'm to busy enjoying my FREEDOM to bother!
P.S. My husband has started a blog as an outlet for his "thoughts" ...some of you might find it interesting...it's "pharisee recovery.blogspot"....enjoy!
I told Gail I was a virgin...it was none of their business and it was weird because during the bulk of the prebaptism meeting, Kevin was around. Ugh.
Gail was a sweet person. I just remember them stressing that I wasn't praying with enough conviction or repenting outloud with enough conviction for Kevin. I sense that it would have been enough for Gail though.
Last I heard Kevin Hunter is now working for the Barden's at their church on the Oregon Coast. (Where every good newlywed couple must retreat to for their honeymoon, the Barden's cabin/condo)
Every church I have ever been to since leaving LFF has had the simplest membership process. Step 1. You must be saved and profess your salvation Step 2. You must want to be a member Step 3. You're a member.
LFF's process consisted; like everything else there, of proving your worthiness for months or years. Going to all the classes, submitting to all the leadership. Then serving and serving and more serving...THEN you could begin to think about applying...oh but if you hadn't been consistent about tithing 23 and 1/3 then forget about it. Appalling.
We too laugh about our experiences there. How foolish were we to not see right through them? My husband likes to freak people out when they ask how we met he'll respond "In a cult" It's so asinine to think about, and just amazes me how powerful persuasion, manipulation and brain washing can be. I've got to hand it to the past and current leaders...they sure did their homework on mind control.
Actually, I think the Bardens, at least Sherri, work for Kevin at his ReMax Realty in Port Ludlow...and Kevin and Sherri co-pastor the church. (I haven't been, but I've seen the website). Appalling that they have no shame over the way they treated people, but just pack up, move, and do the same thing in a new place, maybe a place where people are wealthier.
http://www.doorofgrace.org/ thats the church site. read it and laugh.
Also, I think it is hilarious that LFF, a church that cares so much about external appearances while the inside character of the church rots, has such a shitty website. Also, did they forget how to landscape since Rod T left? Their property looks like shit. It is a bane on pullman. I wish the city would do something about it. At least make them trim their hedges. The menacing building in a residential district is terrible enough.
Nikkoly,
If your read this I am glad you are doing well its your old Pal Carlos Verde. I'm all grown up now and finally have facial hair. It has been 14-15 years since I have seen you so it is good to know you are well. If you read this and get a chance email me at Verdemachine@yahoo.com
This web site is great in that it allows people to work through a bad experience and heal and it can help old amigos find each other again. God bless and I hope to hear from ya.
As many of you, I attended LFF when I was in college. I was a journalism major at the time and was told that, my choice of carrers was a sin. Later, when I was engaged to my then girl-friend, I was told that was a sin also. Eventually Pastor Barden took her aside and told her that I would never amount to much and she should move on. After confronting the pastor about this, I left the church never to return. The memories are still a little painful and have tainted my views on churches (not my faith and relationship with God) and other organizations. I was baptised there and think of my baptism asz GOOD as it was between me and God. Keep the faith brethren.
I think that getting re-baptized is not some scheme of power or condemnation but rather taking a stance and saying to God that you are re-focusing and re-commiting yourself to him. In this way you are making your faith your own and not your parents or someone else's. Also having other people there as witnesses is not a bad thing. When Jesus was getting baptized there was a whole crowd watching on the shore so I don't know what the big deal is about having other people watch you getting baptized. Its more of a support than anything else.
If you view getting re-baptized as a negative thing then you may have too much pride or look at LFF with a cynical eye. I mean if you are looking for evil you will find it. Certainly when I first went there I was critical of everything. But then I changed and saw that people at LFF were genuinely nice people who wanted to help me grow in my relationship with God. I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't understand why you all are so critical.
I can understand if you all were deeply hurt by things in the past but what did the people do to you at LFF that you are so critical of them now? I mean I just don't get it. There are things that LFF does that sometimes makes me critical but I keep an open mind. I know that I am only here for a season and I don't become a helpless victim but experience the good and bad things. No church you go to is going to be perfect and fit into the nice little box that we like to catogorize things into, so you shouldn't judge churches, their members, or their practices because it makes you seem vindictive and judgemental. This makes you closed minded to new ideas and things that God would want to show you. So I think that you all should forgive what happend to you in the past and move on with your lives. If you keep re-living it you willl never grow and mature spiritually.
This may have been a bit harsh for some of you, and I am sorry for that. I think though that tough love or honesty is good for us as it allows us to grow and mature as people. Also you really shouldn't be so paranoid about LFF, they're really not "out to get you" as you all would assume. They are not a cult but a Christian group loving people to Christ.
Also another thought.
This whole, "its between me and God and no one else's business" is all good and fine but its not like someone else is going to take away your faith. There are some things that you need to tell people (not the deeply personal stuff), so that you can form a bond with another person. If you are so paranoid that you never tell anyone anything about you or your personal life it creates a barrier between you and everyone else. Personal contact (like face to face conversation), is a good thing.
You can't just isolate yourself in a corner forever. We need to talk to people. "It is not good for man to be alone." (Genesis) this sentence means that we were created for relationships with God and other people. We need to share information with the people around us. If we truly isolate ourselves we will go crazy. There have been many studies on this and it is true look it up. I think you should try to be less paranoid and talk to people more. I mean you are probably happy and enjoy your life but you need to be more open mined about things, otherwise you will never have any friends, who will support you.
re "Every action. Ever position. Every place. Then he asked about masturbation. He wanted to know everything. Every person I ever thought of."
Thats disgusting. It's weird to think they keep this detailed information about the people that attend there.
I did my repentance with Pastor Joe. He went through some specific stuff but seemed embarrassed when bringing up sexual things.
He also told me to just pray to God from my heart. I really felt like he had good intentions and wanted me to be free. I have some bad memories at this church but this session with him was not one of them. It really felt like he and the Lord Jesus just wanted me to be free.
Joe is a great guy with a beautiful family. I also believe he has great intentions and is a strong leader. I do however wonder why he stays at LFF. It seems like he would be much more influential for God somewhere else.
Message to Pastor Joe: I question your decision to remain with this organization. If you were to operate in a church which slept in God's grace, than the impact you could have on the kingdom of God would be limitless. I type this in full knowledge and belief in the meaning of Proverbs 6:12-19.
To LFF: You need to be very careful with how you handle Pastor Joe because, by placing chains on such a strong willed God fearing man, you could be prying him away from the world that he is destined to change.
re "immersed at LFF, immersed again at LFF for circumcision of heart"
why were you immersed at LFF twice? Is this standard?
"Now...speaking in tongues and baptism of the Holy Spirit...that's an area where I am greatly confused."
I am confused about this as well. I am not sure what to make of it.
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