God's Forgiveness vs man's acceptance
To the person who felt ostracized by the leadership at LFF for prematerial sex I am very sorry what happened to you took place. You confessed your sins to your oversight and in turn they talked with thier oversight and it should have stayed there and not have been spread among your peers. Everyone involved in that leadership chain should be ashamed because they knew what type of personal damage that info could cause.
I dont know you or who your HCL was at the time but I am sure they were not out to destroy you but it seems no sensitivity was given to your situation. Asking you to step down from JCD's is very delicate because if your time as a JCD was like mine, we were all friends. It would be normal for the other JCD's to wonder what happened, ask questions and speculate.
If I had a say in your situation which did not because I was not there I would have brought you in closer after you confessed as you probably had many mixed feelings that good mentoring could have helped. Repentance or true repentance I have discovered is not a quick confession, all is forgiven let just forget about it. For myself I have seen it takes time. I can stop the behavior but the desire to continue is still there and if not ministered, mentored or whatever else you want to call it, that desire festers and the behavior begins again.
To me your confession was not only a cry for forgiveness but also help and it seems that more focus was placed on your sin than your continued walk with Christ. The fact you confessed shows you felt what you did was sin but the outcome that took place was so much different that what could have took place.
God does not hate you and he forgave your sin before it took place. People on the other hand are jus that, people. Like I said if it was up to me the focus after confession should be placed on your continued relationship with Jesus to bring you closer where you could have grown from the experience.
I feel for you because like you I had many close friends at LFF and I am sure many are still there. The difference is I live in another city as an exLFFer and dont see any current church members who may or may not be whispering behind my back or yours. When I was there we had a HCL who left the church but still lived in Pullman and I remember at a members meeting being told why he had to leave, what he did etc and to keep my distance. When I saw him at Fantastic Sams to get a hair cut I had to speak to him to see how he was. I remember I told my HCL about talking with the exLFFer and they were concerned that I was ok and I thought it very strange. It was like he was a disease that would spread on me if I talked with him, nonsense.
I too find myself from time to time longing for the good old days with all my old friends but those days are gone. I refuse to beleive that my best days where over 10 years ago as life is what you make of it and it can and will get better or not.
It is nice to belong to something that we see as bigger than ourselves as it can give us purpose and drive. In the end a church is an organization with thier own rules and regulations that are not always fairley administered.
The God I know is not waiting to punish me or you with a big bat. Leaving LFF is not a sin but a choice. To stay at LFF and be a part of LFF is a choice to live life the LFF way. I just could not do that. We were taught the wheel theory if you remember how we are at the center and each spoke was a part of our life and how God should be at the center and each spoke a reflection of him. How easy it is to put LFF at the center and have it involved in every part of our life. It took me a while to believe it but people that go to other churches are saved and living a very happy life with God.
You had prematerial sex and confessed your sin. Dont confuse Gods forgiveness with mans acceptence. The prematerial thing may have excluded you from inner working of LFF and being a JCD but it never took you away from recieving Gods love and forgiveness.
Do whatever you have to do to get closer to GOD. It sound to me that your anger at LFF is preventing you from doing that. Right or wrong anger is anger and will eat you up in the end. I have seen happen more times than I care to have seen. If you are wary about new churches and talking with a Pastor about what has happened to you maybe a secular counselor can help. They wont judge you and will see things from a much different point of view.
LFF is just a church that consumed many of our lives. Take responsibility for what you did, no more no less, and get help to let the rest go
Editor's note: this was posted way down the blog, we wanted to make sure everyone had a chance to read it.
DPR!!!
36 comments:
thanks, DPR, there are so many posts, and it's hard to keep track of when new comments are made
You were removed from JCDs? That's funny, I remember you saying you were choosing to step out of it.
If the above question is actually from Pastor Joe, it really encourages me that he is still reading. I believe that the truth of what has happened at LFF (either by accident (yes we are all human and eff up) or by intent) can open the hearts of all.
I think this blog is a lot like Luther's Theses being posted on the church door in Wittenberg. The beauty of the web is that it gets much more distribution. This blog is a call for Reformation. (both in our lives and in the church.) Believe it or not, many of us that are most outspoken against the abuses at LFF, are the ones who love LFF and have hope that it can change to be a church that really IS a light on a hill. The pain we feel is related to the hope that we felt as we came to LFF. Here was a group of people that loved Jesus and were going to change the world for Him.
Somehow, that all got twisted as the years went on. We lost the Spirit as we organized and set up an organization. Remember the truth of the Nee's "Love not the world". Are they still teaching from that?
I love LFF and still have a vision for what it can be. Yes, it has been over ten years since I left, so I only have the information I gather from the blog to know what is going on.
What does everyone else think about inviting someone from Leadership (eg, P. V. or P. Joe)to honestly open a dialog with us (no name calling from either side). Just a simple conversation about what is going on at LFF. If we want the Truth About Living Faith Fellowship, can't we handle their side too?
Love and peace to all of you,
John Brower
I came back to the church to visit not too long ago. I was not escorted out the door. Just the opposite. I was treated with genuine kindness and the visit was quite enjoyable. I am not desiring to rejoin LFF but I had a very nice time with the people there.
probably depends on if you made waves on the way out or not
Yes, in my past at LFF I "made waves". I still had a great visit and may visit again sometime.
"When we have been wounded by the Church, our temptation is to reject it. But when we reject the Church it becomes very hard for us to keep in touch with the living Christ. When we say, "I love Jesus, but I hate the Church," we end up losing not only the Church but Jesus too.
The challenge is to forgive the Church. This challenge is especially great because the Church seldom asks us for forgiveness, at least not officially. But the Church as an often fallible human organization needs our forgiveness, while the Church as the living Christ among us continues to offer us forgiveness.
It is important to think about the Church not as "over there" but as a community of struggling, weak people of whom we are part and in whom we meet our Lord and Redeemer."
- Henry Nouwen
Living Faith Fellowship
1035 S Grand Ave
Pullman, WA 99163
(509) 334-1035
Sunday Service 10:30am
Wednesday Service 7:00pm
Friday CCF 7:30pm
Stop on by anytime. We'd love to see you!
Of course you would love to see us. It is always about appearing like the warm friendly face.
The "We will do ANYTHING for you" line doesn't fool me anymore. Not after my best friend was bedridden for months and never got even a visit from her oh so great (still current) leader. That is one of many instances I can name where people were not loved - they were ill treated or neglected.
Tell me, after I leave what kind of comments about my spirituality will you say? I can tell you what they will be from past experiences and watching my friends leave before me. My friends were given friendly smiles to their faces and daggers in the back. Oh, and please don't give me lipservice on how so much has changed. Outward smokescreens to hide not dealing with real issues don't work for me. All that amounts to is distractions and more deception.
The issues I left with about how people were treated are not dealt with. By LFF's own doctrine on repentance the lying leadership should have confessed the truth, should have reconciled and made restitution with those they wounded. That hasn't happened with anyone I know of and I keep in contact with MANY. The leadership should have confessed to the rest of the congregation about it's own failings and asked forgiveness for tearing apart the congregation that way.
I would not have left if there had been honest admission of problems and heart changes were evident. All the current leadership would have had to do (instead of denying) was say "We know we hurt _____ and we know they left for good reason and we pray healing on all sides." Or something along those lines. Instead I got an "I don't know what you are talking about" line of bologna. To know the people I was referring to brought pages of stuff and discussed it all with the leadership and I was given that line is very upsetting. Most people I know who brought up issues also got that standard response.
So, NO, I for one will not come around. Not until LFF leadership responds to it's own doctrine on repentance and faces the nasty things they have done to people. Love is in how you actually treat others not how you talk big about it.
First you said,"Ya'll know damn well that we'd be escorted right out the door". Then you said, "Sure you'd be nice to us to our faces because you don't have to guts to say to us what you really want to say to us...." So which is it? Are they bullies that would help you find the door or are they gutless? Would they usher you out or be nice to you to "lure" you in? Perhaps, and here's a radical thought, they would be warm and friendly, one might even say Christ-like. Go back. Don't go back. I don't care. But please don't speculate. It's fine to speak of the past you knew if that helps you. But don't speak of the present you don't know. People change. Churches change. LFF seems to be changing. Maybe it's not changing in all the ways that everyone would like to see, but still it's changing. Sure it would be nice on a personal basis if each of us recieved apologies. So we don't? Isn't the greater good that the church changes? Yes, I know, many people have held out the "apology" as evidence of true change. "Until this happens I will not believe/accept etc that leadership has changed...." yada,yada.... meanwhile while people are holding out and disbelieving, LFF is moving on and changing.
From an ex-LFFer who went back to see and appreciate the good work of God
THANK YOU FOR THAT!!
We can talk freely about our past (all in the name of healing and reconciliation of course)
but none of us can say what is or is not going on there now.
Some of us haven't been there in anywhere between 6 months and 16 years...
a lot can change in that time...
and a lot may not have changed in that time...
who are we to judge??
we are acting towards them in the same way we are upset at them for acting towards us....
I too made LOTS of waves and left"badly" however, having returned for a visit recently
was greeted warmly, genuinely and with much love, hugs and interest...
Does that mean things have
changed??
Maybe not...
but even that one visit does not give me enough info to make an
accurate judgement....
I even still know a few people there, who all have something different to say
bottom line... I AM not there, so who can say??
If the purpose of this blog is healng... let's keep that in mind...
let's not waste time speculating on LFF now or on how we would be treated if we returned
I am sorry
I don't want to be mean
but move on already people...
Kristin... I know you must have more exciting stuff to worry about than all this crap...
get the healing that you need.. get counseling if you need it, do what needs to be done and MOVE ON!
i know that I was at LFF for many years, and if you read back on this blog you will read many of my horror stories...
but I CHOOSE to MOVE ON!!
I am being productive with my life, doing something good for other people... getting the help I need for myself...
God's got so much out there for all of us...
get the healing you need, and then PASS IT ON!!
Go help someone else
don't hang out here all the time and swim in the mud!!
GOD BLESS YOU ALL
Kristin has asked for this discussion to be removed since it is directly about her situation. The problem with that is what if PKV asked the same. This has been a valid discussion. We want to see it remain. Kristin deleted her comments so it will be pretty one sided.
We hope that she will reconsider being involved, because she helped many of us to look at our healing.
DPR!!!
i actually felt the same way the last person did when I shared. she is in a lot of pain. Why is everyone so judgemental?YOU who read this we already hurt each other and judged for so many years. Stop it. You are no better just because you are at a different spot than everyine else. I am also done. None of you have changed and you are the same arrogant people who put on the ruse of caring. You are the people that helped LFF be what it was. MAybe that is why it is changing, because you are gone.
we are all diminished if one voice is silenced. Kristin, please take some time to find the peace beyond understanding, but then come back! Can everyone please stop attacking? I was calling for an open dialog, not a shouting match or accusations.
Can Pastor Phil please identify himself and give us his side of the story. If we are ever to build bridges, we need to communicate. I am NOT saying that any of us will ever go back to LFF. That is not what I was suggesting. I would like to see an honest dialog start. It may not be possible since many here on the blog already have serious problems trusting anything that is said. But, can we be adults and try it?
Peace to ALL!
John B.
I am sorry she decided to leave, but Kristen was not "silenced" and she was not attacked. Some of what was said was essentially a re-iteration of the conclusion of the original post - get some help and move on. Healing is an individual experience and it is never fair to say to someone "get over it". Even people who have made alot of progress in healing can have something trigger a memory that makes them feel as if they've made no progress at all. Some people need to be allowed to heal slowly and gingerly or to have those 'relapse' moments. But when someone seems to be going over the same ground again and again, with undiminished - if not increasing anger, then people may offer the suggestion of getting help. Kristen was offered that suggestion. Kristen also made some very strong statements. "Ya'll know damn well" kind of strong about things that neither she nor us knew either well and certainly not "damn well". That was questioned. Questioning strong speculative statements was not an attack. It was a legitimate point of discussion.
people please stop thinking for me and assuming that I'm not healed.
None of you know me personally. Please just mind your own business and talk about something other than me.
I'm not going to apologize for my feelings I shouldn't have to.
Kristin
No, you don't have to apolgize for your feelings. No one asked you to apologize for your feelings. Apologizing for your feelings wasn't the point. Some people read what you write and realize some of it doesn't quite, well, make sense with other things you write. No one wants you to aplogize or feel attacked or remove all your posts, just maybe slow down a bit and think about what you're writing, if it's really true or not or if you just feel upset and think it's what it might be like. Girl - we're trying to help you with some credibility here. Okay? Bad stuff happened. But good stuff is happening too and to be truthful and credible we need to factor in the good stuff.
Kristin
some of us do know you
and have known you
and only speak out due to concern for you...
removing all your posts and responding as you have only
cements the conclusions drawn
and is a very angry, rash decision
this is a caring place
and these are caring people
who want the very best God has for you
you may feel singled out
but your's is a lesson we are all learning from
much love and peace
The Way We Mend Lyrics
Bebo Norman
Lately you’ve been all blue sky
And I’ve been rain
I don’t mean to bust up your party
With all of my pain
But sometimes my shadows surround me
And you take me in your arms and say
It’s the way we mend
We tear it all down and we’ll start it again
And I don’t know how but you find me where we begin
And that’s just the way, the way that we mend
It’s just that some voices remind me
I’m not strong enough
To put all my demons behind me
And carry this love
But just like an angel of mercy
You take me by my hand and say
They’re pouring out
From my mouth
So many words all spoken wrong
But you come alive
And somehow I find my way
Kristen, I don't know you but I think you are great and I am impressed that you are willing to put your feeling out there, I agree with everything you are saying
To the negative person - It is amazing how unkind you are to someone you don't even know, you may be standing up for something you believe in, but how is being unkind the "Christian "way to handle this. I am guessing you are a young male from the tone of your comments and I would say step back and think before you write, because answering in the heat of the moment will never help your cause at any point in time. Never dis someone else's feeling you are not them, you haven't walked a mile in their shoes, you don't know how their past has shaped their present feelings. Abuse in any form is very harmful to the human psych, it is something you live with the rest of your life it forms how you think, react, and believe, so to ridicule the abuse(whether you believe them or not) you hurt the person. And whether you are standing up for what you believe or are just being mean, ask you to look inside and figure out why you have reacted the way you have.
I agree that Kristen has been very courageous. That is why we need you to stay here, posting. Please do not lump all of us together with the people who seem to be mean. (Again, I am not sure their intent is to upset you. They just don't seem to understand where you are coming from.) Many of us here are caring and want to work out our own healing too.
Let's keep the conversation going, and please give each other grace to be where they are right now. No one needs to change because someone else tells them to. You only need to listen to the Spirit and follow its leading.
Peace, John B.
Healing.
That's a word many of have used in this blog.
But how exactly does one heal? I'm not just talking about healing from our past LFF experiences, but from all of lifes trials and tribulations. I know the easy answer is one we are all familiar with "give it up to God"
What happens when that's not enough to heal your mind and your heart?
I really don't want people knowing everything about me but this blog topic about has brought back feelings and emotions that I have been trying to ignore for years.
Many have agreed in past blogs that there are certain type of people who tend to get sucked in to LFF more than others. Those are usually ones with a colorful past and few church experiences.
That's me in a nutshell, but crack that nut open and you will see that I haven't just had a typical life.
Not that anyone cares to know the following, but I just thought if people knew more about my past they might be less likely to judge me, and might be more willing to be understanding.
My traumas:
-When I was 4 I witnessed my grandmother pass away
-When I was 5 my mom's 3rd husband beat us.
-We went into a suedo witness protection program
-At 6 I had to protect my 4 year old sister and myself while her mom (we're half sisters) was drunk and passing out everywhere and my mom was working the night shift.
-I was a latchkey kid from 6 on.
-At 12 my father died while working on the engine of his dump truck it started to roll and he tried to jump in but got pulled under instead.
-At 12 my uncle made several attempts to rape me
-At 14 I started smoking/drinking etc
-At 16 I was in a head on collision and almost died
-At 18 I started going to LFF
-At 18 I developed a massive blood clot from my knee to my stomach, had to be rushed to spokane from pullman, spent 10 days in ICU in the hospital, over 15 surgeries, almost died again. Docs told me I had a blood disorder and it would be a problem for life.
-Husband and I left LFF when I was 21
-At 21 we lost our 1st baby
-At 22 we lost our 2nd baby
-I'm now 23 and we've now had 14 months of infertility and still no healthy children.
I don't want pity! Absolutly none! What I want is some understanding. What makes me who I am is a life time of experiences, many of which have been very traumatic. There's good in my life, tons. Most people would have gone off the deep end if just one of those experiences.
Well I happen to know Kristin well and I applaude her for stepping up and writing what she did.
It took a lot of guts to lay it all out there and maybe by doing so she found healing....until she was jumped all over at least.
I feel that what she wrote was very significant in that it is what hundreds of us have gone through to some degree.
Being ostracized like that was common place among life at LFF as long as I can remember. I watched it happen to my friends and many other people I knew. I find that those people who were going through stuff like that needed their friends more than ever at those points in their life but instead were pushed away, ignored and isolated.
I watched one of my closest friends get in trouble in highschool and I was NOT allowed to talk to her. I purposefully walked out of my way to go by her one night at church during that time and let her know that I loved her because I just couldn't see how staying away from her was going to help matters.
I have the satisfaction of still having that friend in my life today and I am glad I didn't listen to my oversight and ignore her.
We are all at different levels of healing and it still surprises me what can rip open old wounds I thought were healed. I have been back to LFF several times for various reasons in the last month or so alone and for what it's worth, I don't know that it's changed any...the faces have changed a lot but that oppressive atmosphere still lingers there. And believe me, I grew up in it and I know that feeling like the back of my hand.
All I can say is, "Give me a church that worships Him for His sake over a church that puts on a show 3 times a week any day".
As an anonymous person on this blog I have to admit there is protection in anonymity not just in the sense of LFF concerns but in being able to be more open and free with your comments because perhaps you are embarrassed to admit you masterbate daily or that you are feeling sassy and start demanding to see the LFF books as should be our right. However, I DO NOT advocate calling people names or questioning someone's right to state how they feel about what happened to them which has been a part of this blog lately. So, for those that feel attacked please remember that you don't have to agree with what another person has said or even respond or justify what you have said. And especially you don't need to feel hurt or judged by it - hell - they could just be some random blog lurker from Antwerp, Ohio just trying to get a response or it could be an LFF member or a pastor. I just always think perhaps I am helping them to come to a realization about how bad things were for many folks at LFF and they then take time to reflect. They wouldn't have the need to defend if they didn't have concerns themselves deep down. The whole "thou protests too much" theory is applicable.
Anonymous and loving it.
PS. LFF "leadership"- I want to see the financial records for the last 25 yrs including all income, salaries, expenses, & property ownership related to LFF & PCS.
if you really want to see all that, you need to go to the church and ask. i don't think any of the people who could show you that read this blog anymore. seriously. it's not worth their time. so just posting a statement like that here is not going to get you anywhere.
I was being facetious. I highly doubt they would share their financials unless under court order.
Who cares how much money they have anyways? It's none of their business how much I have and, in the same way, it's none of my business how much they have. I wish I knew which Kristin this was. I think I know who you are, but I'm not sure. Anyways, I do wish you well and, trust me, there are a lot of people who experienced the same things you did. It's sad and it does take time to heal and to trust again. But that's the way life is and I'm sure you know that. I hope someday we all can find some element of hope and peace knowing that God is still alive, He still loves us and we aren't alone.
Don't know if anyone will read this or not but considering this thread was about me, I thought I'd share some news.
Its been over a year since our loss, we are pregnant again.
We're still very early on in pregnancy but we don't believe in keeping it a secret until 12 weeks.
At LFF they stressed keeping it quiet and then after 12 weeks you could get the okay to do an announcement in front of the congregation. That always bugged me. How can an institution that so heavily encourages pro-life and says you have a soul at the moment of conception, force their members to be silent for 12 weeks? They said 'there's always a risk in the 1st trimester' well sure there is but does that make the pregnancy less real? Does being 12+weeks gestation suddenly mean that your baby is safe and will be born? No, it doesn't and their are always risks. Why shouldn't we celebrate life, even if the only people feeling the presence of that life is the mother and father, and even if that life only lasts a few seconds or a few weeks?
I never understood why couples who were faced with infertility and miscarriages were silenced. Why can't they share their joy and their worries so that more people can be praying for them? Those who've suffered losses were forced to go through the grief alone. Even though we had already left before we got pregnant the first time, I still had people email me and tell me I lost the baby because of our sins. Sure okay. I don't buy that anymore.
LFF forces people to live in condemnation and then guilts them for being in condemnation. Whenever someone is sick or worried about something bad happening the first response to that person is "Don't claim it" Sure there's prayer too, when that sickness comes or that bad thing happens, is the lesson 'sometimes bad things happen to good people'? or is it 'you must have done something wrong or let evil into your heart'? I was faced with the latter more times than not.
After we lost our first baby, a dear professor who had counseled many ex-lffers gave me the book "Why do bad things happen to Good people." That book though I still can't read it all without crying has changed my life. To walk in a freedom knowing that I didn't cause my babies to stop growing, but that God had a higher plan, is the healing that I needed in order to survive this cruel world. I recommend the book.
Alas and end to my rambling. I really just wanted to share my news and ask that anyone who feel obliged to pray for me and my husband and our baby. The pregnancy is going great so far and I'm sicker than a dog and loving it.
KAL
Anyway
to KAL: Congratulations on your pregnancy. We don't know each other, but I will be praying for you and your baby.
I think that maybe one of the reasons that LFF swept miscarriages under the rug and advocated silence was that they really didn't have any answers for such a great hurt. Their practice of choosing which doctrines they would accept and which they would reject left them with a theology that was, at many times, bankrupt. Only after I left and was introduced to a more balanced, Biblical theology where God's sovereignty and grace were also a part of life, did life begin to make some sense...not completely, but to the point where I could trust that God was really in control and that He was doing what was best.
update:
we were carrying 4 babies; we lost them all
Kristin Logsdon
Kristin,
I'm so sorry for your great loss.
Kristin,
Anyone who honestly believes that you lost your babies due to sin must also believe that Karl Barden got cancer because of HIS sin or any other person who has ever suffered sickness or loss was due to specific sin. Sickness and death occur because WE ALL SIN - there was none until Adam and Eve ate that blast apple! Pain in our lives is guaranteed because we live in a fallen world. I know you know this but I say it for everyone else who believes otherwise - God IS NOT PUNISHING the Logsdons because of sin. HE is gracious. Those making such accusations need to get OUT of their precious glass houses, OFF their pedestals and start REALLY trying to be like Jesus. HE would NEVER make such an accusation!
Thank you. I do know those things but I need to hear them to believe them more ya know :)
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