My Story (email)
After having grown up there for eighteen years, I left LFF about four years ago. It was the summer after my freshman year of college. I needed to leave, but I did not fully understand why at the time. At first, I was happy to be moving and grateful to be away from Pullman. Then, we started attending other churches. I recognized the same songs that we had sung at LFF and the same catch phrases. I began dreading church. I hated going and drug myself out of bed every Sunday morning. I would often cry through the service, or do my best to ignore the sermon. Also, I was starting to realize how horrible LFF had been.
I started feeling abandoned. None of my friends at LFF were still my friends save one. I would cry a lot and would go for long walks by the river. I was so lonely. I did not feel that I was able to make friends at the church we were going to because they were too Charismatic. I liked them, but every time I hung out with them, I was thinking “they are just like LFF.” I realize, now, that I had set up a mental block against them. I was prejudice because they reminded me of LFF.
It did not take long before I stopped sleeping at night and started skipping meals. I read all the time; I could not stop and I could not sleep. Therefore, I read all night long, mostly Lord of the Rings. I was trying to escape the problems in my life. I could handle neither my own pain nor that of my family.
I started yelling at God. “Why did you make me like this? Why did you let this happen to me? How could you! Don’t you care at all? I thought that if I believed You would cushion me against all my problems! I even wished that I could be back at LFF and everything could be normal. Oh, to live in a happy and ignorant bubble again!
Depression is a hole out of which there is no ladder. So many times, I felt that I was so depressed that I was drowning in my own tears. I used to hope for rain so that I could feel that I was not crying alone. Later, at another school, I spent all my time watching TV in my dorm room, and doing cross-stitch. I spent at little time as possible thinking I would take walks and hope that someone would ask me what was wrong. Strange, I know, but I didn’t feel like I could hold it in anymore.
At school, I would go to the youth group and spend the whole time crying because of the memories the songs aroused in me. I don’t think that I was ever able to fully explain to my friends there why I did not hang out with them as much as I could have. Eventually, I would make up excuses to arrive late just so that I would miss the worship time. I hated LFF for what they had made me.
Praise God for His Divine Intervention! Else, I would still be caught in this endless cycle of depression and anxiety! Just before I moved to my new school, I had a long talk with my father about Salvation by Grace and Pre-Destination. We had started going to a new church on the recommendation of another Ex-LFFer. Salvation is a gift from God. Therefore, it is only by God extending his hand toward us that we can be saved. Righteousness is a gift from God to sinners. I have no need for that salvation unless I see my self as a sinner. I am a sinner, a horrible sinner (Isaiah 53:6). Without God’s gift of Salvation, I know that I would not really want to be saved. I would want to go to Heaven. Without God, I would not see my sin.
Romans 2:22-24 “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
I know, so much of this sounds just like LFF, so what is the difference? “Not the Labors of my hands could fulfill thy laws demands” (Rock of Ages). The absence of works is the difference. Despite all that the LFF says, their salvation was on of works. Do you remember being told that you can “earn your place in Heaven?” Romans 8:29-30: “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.” Glorification is a part of God’s gift to us. We did cannot earn it.
How proud of me to think that I had a hand in my own salvation! I have been predestined for Salvation since before the creation of the world. I have been called and been declared righteous.
It is hard to forgive those that have wronged me, especially when it pain like that was caused by LFF. I take comfort in remembering that Jesus understands my pain. My pastor made a comment that the only requirement for us to have been saved was that Jesus had to die. He did not have to suffer on the cross; he could have died peacefully in his bed for us to be saved Instead, he chose to die in extreme pain and humiliation, so that he could identify with human suffering. “Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows” Isaiah 53: 4a. CS Lewis has written two books on suffering, which I have had recommended to me (The Problem of Pain and A Grief Observed). One was written before he lost his wife and another was written afterward and each looks at pain from a different angle.
I would like you to know that to this day, I still cannot listen to Christian music after four long years I want to pull back from any sort of volunteer church work mentioned. I cannot stand Charismatic Catch Phrases. I take pleasure in drinking beer out of the mug I got from the JCD retreat.
Healing for me has been a long, slow process. I still struggle with depression and anxiety. It helps me to know that God chose me. “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit” (John 15:16). He knew me in my mother’s womb. Everyday I face the pain. Nearly every day, I feel like crying about it. I understand what you mean and the struggles you face about not wanting to go to any church. I lived there for a solid two years. It is completely normal.
It grieves me to think about all of the people whose faith was crushed by LFF. I, too, am praying for you.
18 comments:
That's funny that you enjoy drinking beer from your JCD mug. If I had thought of it, I would have too. Cheers! I have long since purged all memories of lff from my home. I'm sorry for your pain, and I'm even more sorry that you are so alone in the process. I'm glad you found the blog and can express some of the pain and hopefully feel not quite so alone with all of the rest of us who are walking the same walk as you. It's so sad that worship has become bitter sweet. I want so badly to enter into worship without all of the garbage that goes through my brain in the process. One day, I pray we will be able to. Thank you for your post, and for your honesty.
This post probably describs how I have felt more accurately than any before. It is amazing that we have gone through so many of the same things. I hope I can get back to relationship with Jesus, and get through a Church service someday, but for right now I am taking things one step at a time, and hopefully things will work out.
Out of curiosity, where in the Bible is that verse you mentioned? Also, what version.
I apologize, I did not mean it as an attack. I just was unable to find it, and in desperation, I asked for help. I am sorry if my earnestness played off as an attack.
I should have done a simple search on-line for the passage. I have found it in Ephesians 2:10 and the surrounding verses. The translation is NIV.
"Good works are necessary in order to be eligible for election."
The argument you are making is a form of Pelagianism, settled long centuries ago as outside the pale of orthodoxy.
The statement itself is impossible and has absolutely no consonance with the Christian faith. You are greatly misunderstanding and de-valuing Christ's redemptive work for you. But, I am not questioning your piety or your sincerity as a believer, only your statement.
"Consider this if it is prouder to think that one had a hand in their own salvation, how much more so is it to think they were so important as to have been predestined since before the creation of the world?"
People are free to think whatever they want. But, if you truly believed in election and your own unworthiness, it would produce in you not pride but a profound sense of gratitude. This is all through Paul's letters.
I can understand the difficulty with understanding God's grace. At LFF, God's grace definitely took a back seat to our works.
"If this is so we have no free will and God has predestined billions of people to burn in Hell!"
Well, a sobering fact to be sure, but it is in God's hands, not ours. And nother point for our own humility at Him finding us, calling us when we did not love Him, saving us when we did not want to be saved. Why did He do this? There is no answer, but His love and grace.
We persevere, we preach the Word, we grow in good works, but as fruit of His Spirit within us, not because it makes us eligble for election. Although we definitely need to be producing that fruit, don't we. A mystery, His calling, our response.
For a deeper understanding of election and depravity, read Augustine. Read the Old Testament. The the New Testament.
And yes, I found a church preaching more reformed doctrines. Very good preaching, too, I think anyone who had attended LFF would enjoy the preaching here. :)
To the people commenting above: Why do you feel you need to tell people how to believe. Your conversation above is the exact reason I don't want to go to any church. As someone who grew up at LFF we were always told what to believe. They would say this theology is wrong because the bible says this. Well the bible can be interpreted many different ways. Why do you feel you have to "suggest" a different way of thinking, instead of just being thankful that the person still believes in God and is willing to commune with Him. How do you know your right the orginal blog is wrong, Every one is responsible for their own salvation, why judge.
To the people commenting above was directed toward 11/07/2005 9:46 PM blogger
I agree with what you are saying to a certain extent. The Bible can definitely be interpreted in different ways and no one person has it entirely figured out (which is why there are so many denominations). But I also do not believe that the above commenter had any wrong intentions in challenging the original posts views. I think it is good for us to enjoy a healthy debate here and there so that we can learn from one another. We should all be humble enough to know that we don't know everything about the Bible and I for one appreciate hearing others views on such doctrine even if I do disagree. Imposing your views on others is wrong but sharing your own convictions and beliefs is perfectly acceptable.
Ahhhh!!!! Debate exposes doubt. I love debate to an extent. I think the important thing is that we all know that we are saved by grace and our works, no matter how great are as filthy rags. It is great that God gives us minds to probe and ask questions. He designed us to question yet this was not allowed at LFF.
To 11/08/2005 3:30 PM blogger. In saying "Every one is responsible for their own salvation, why judge." I meant that I am responsible before God for the denomination I choose whatever it may be that is between me and God. And for some one to tell me that my thinking is wrong
(as long as I am not harm myself or others) is judging my beliefs.
"To the people commenting above: Why do you feel you need to tell people how to believe. Your conversation above is the exact reason I don't want to go to any church. As someone who grew up at LFF we were always told what to believe."
The difference between our discussion and what your were taught as LFF is this: we believe that any idea at all should be able to be presented on the table.
In the end, the Truth will be left standing. That is a far cry from being told how to think.
We have arguements all the time like this over beers. In our JCD mugs.
I realize that this discussion has mostly been closed. But as I wrote the original e-mail, I have a few last comments:
1) I shared this with you to let you know how I am finding healing. Everyone finds healing in different ways. It was meant as an encouragement to you that even if it takes time, healing will come. If you took it as other wise, I am sorry.
2) The term "divine intervention" in Calvinism refers to the time when God reveals his grace to you. It was by the Grace of God that I realized that I was on the road to Hell.
3) I urge you to read that passage in Ephesians 2 again. We were so brain-washed at LFF that we were not even allowed to interoperate the Scriptures for ourselves. (Yes, I firmly believe that I was brain washed). In that chapter it says that we are saved by Jesus’ work on the cross and not by our works least we should boast.
4) To the comment that discussions like this is just why you don't want to go to church. I have already told you that I was in that state for 2 years. I did not want to have anything to do with any church because I was afraid of finding it to be just like LFF. There they told you what you could believe and what you couldn’t.
5) Most importantly: I DO NOT believe that you have to believe in pre-destination to be a Christian. We are Christians because of our belief in the saving blood of Jesus Christ.
To the 11/08 3:30 pm blogger: You wrote
Another person said: “I think the important thing is that we all know that we are saved by grace and our works, no matter how great are as filthy rags.” which means you agree with me also that we are saved by grace and are works.
If you read this correctly he/she is saying that the important thing is that we all know we are saved by grace ... and our works (no matter how great) are as filthy rags. This does not say that we are saved by grace AND works, but only by GRACE.
" If this is so we have no free will and God has predestined billions of people to burn in Hell! Would such a being be the loving God who wishes that everyone might be saved?"
This is not a light question, and it is sobering. But when I think of Aminianism, in the light of this question, to me it seems that Arminianism is man's way of trying to help God out with his ethical dilemma.
Does God predestinate people to hell? If the answer is not "yes" and if the answer is not "no", then what? Ah, let the God- breathed words of Romans 9:20 be as a hammer that breaketh in pieces: "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" In other words, who are you, O man, to question God? That's all the answer we need. Something is cockeyed, something is tilted off balance when the Creator is asked to give an account of Himself to His creatures.
www.gracemessenger.com/whoart.html
The question is sobering. Rejoice that you have found the truth. It was bought with a precious price, and no matter if you believe God predestined you for this joy, or you found him through your own actions, the fact is most people haven't and won't. You are a chosen people and a blessed people. Preservere and grow.
" If this is so we have no free will and God has predestined billions of people to burn in Hell! Would such a being be the loving God who wishes that everyone might be saved?"
This is not a light question, and it is sobering. But when I think of Aminianism, in the light of this question, to me it seems that Arminianism is man's way of trying to help God out with his ethical dilemma.
Does God predestinate people to hell? If the answer is not "yes" and if the answer is not "no", then what? Ah, let the God- breathed words of Romans 9:20 be as a hammer that breaketh in pieces: "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" In other words, who are you, O man, to question God? That's all the answer we need. Something is cockeyed, something is tilted off balance when the Creator is asked to give an account of Himself to His creatures.
www.gracemessenger.com/whoart.html
The question is sobering. Rejoice that you have found the truth. It was bought with a precious price, and no matter if you believe God predestined you for this joy, or you found him through your own actions, the fact is most people haven't and won't. You are a chosen people and a blessed people. Preservere and grow.
First, why are some of the comments repeating? Is there a problem with the blog?
Warning: Non-Orthodox beliefs follow!
Anyway, Someone said that it is OK to share our opinions. I am sure if I had my beliefs in the medieval times I would have been burned at the stake. But is God Truth? If the answer to that is yes, is it possible that the Spirit of God could have spoken to the hearts of other people besides what the Bible reports? I believe that as Truth, God can speak to me through other sacred texts, It can speak to me through a song, a movie, a tv show, or even a walk.
Why are we so tied to what the Bible says? Yes, it has guided generations for thousands of years. But has that guidence always been good? You only have to look at the horrible things done in the name of Jesus to know that it has not been all good. You only have to look at our experience at LFF to know that even well meaning "spirit filled" Christians can do hurtful things thinking they are doing the will of God. I am not saying that you have to agree with anthing I say, but I ask you to ask yourself why you believe what you believe.
One of the things that is real interesting about the Bible and Koran is how male-centric they both are. God is referred to as He. Many of the female-centric religions have been delegated to witchcraft or worse. I find that an interesting world view. If men are good and women are evil, then it is easy to dominate women and keep them in their place. I personally don't believe that God is a male. I also don't believe that it is female. I think God is all encompassing. It has both male and female aspects. (One of the few things that Karl taught that I think has a lot of merit.) If we see ourselves as all different aspects of diety, then we will take much better care of each other. If I hurt you, I hurt myself. If only the leadership at LFF had seen this truth. Perhaps they would have had a lot more grace on everyone (including themselves!).
God is revealing itself today, and it will speak to us, if we will listen.
Love and peace!
I completely agree with you. God is truth--and truth is everywhere where you are willing to find it. I mean all truth is God's truth. If you are genuinely seeking real truth in Buddism or Hinduism they will find it, Him--maybe they will eventually have to leave thier religion much like I have had to leave US "Christianity" to find truth. Truth will be found.
You, and perhaps others, might be interested to read about the inroads that pagan thought is making into Christian circles.
The Gnostic Empire Strikes Back
Peter R. Jones
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