Things Learned
Those who have attended LFF and since left have learned many things from the experience. Some of these things have greatly helped in finding or selecting a new church. To that end this post is dedicated.
While many have expressed that simply finding any church other than LFF was an amazing relief. Truly, moving from a controlling and abusive environment to any safe environment has obvious value. However, there are things learned from LFF that have opened our eyes to how things can be better at other churches. These are posted below:
1. I am very wary of churches undergoing large building projects. I was there when Karl Barden effectively pulled the wool over our eyes and convinced us Living Faith Fellowship needed a new building. That year, as with every year at LFF, we sang "There's Gonna Be A Revival In The Land" and listened to the 'prophets' proclaim that the harvest was ripe and God was bringing 'great increase.' Karl told us to expect the communities to come flocking to our church. What was really his laziness in being unwilling to have more than one service in the smaller building turned into the manipulation of the congregation to undertake the building of a 2200 seat monstrosity. This church has financially crippled the entire congregation. I could write an essay on how money ought to be spent in a church, but that is not the point here. At LFF the building is really a sunk cost that looks horrible in the eyes of the community, and is a 2200 seat reminder to anyone who knows the Truth About Living Faith Fellowship why they should avoid association at all costs. I would hate to be part of another church wasting money on a large building which would hurt growth, evangelism and ability to support the poor and needy and Biblical programs in the future.
2. (via email) I will never go to a church again where the pastors are worshipped or viewed with an unnecessary amount of success. I visited a church for awhile after leaving LFF which I thought was great. That was until I found out how the senior pastors were treated. They had "armorbearers" which took care of their every need and waited on them hand and foot. These servants were bending over backward to take care of all the tiny little details that the pastors needed and were treated like rubbish. The pastors clearly thought they were above the people serving them, and had obvious pride issues. This was an eerie reminder to me of the situation at LFF, where I witnessed the lives of some of my closest friends ruined through close service of the pastors. The LFF pastors created this conception that those that served them were the ones that were closest to them, and were those with true 'servants hearts.' Publicly the servants were treated well in most cases to further the false notion in the eyes of those on the outside looking in. But privately, these servants who wanted the love and acceptance of the pastors were abused and manipulated and used to take care of everyday tasks in the pastors' families' lives they felt they were above. I know of true stories of those who have cleaned Vance's childrens rooms on a weekly basis while the kids played. People did their laundry, folded their clothes and undergarments, cleaned their entire houses, made them food, gave them nightly massages, waited on them hand and foot--all in the name of 'service of the Lord.' This was not exclusive to vances, but was pretty much standard across the board for most of the LFF leadership. Serving in itself is not wrong in any way, as truly Jesus served everyone. However, when the servant is abused and manipulated in a way that is detrimental to them physically and emotionally, that is wrong. That is what scares me about pastors who are full of pride and think they deserve special service.
3. (via email) At my new church, one does not have to attend church for years and take special classes to become a member. At LFF we were required to take the introductory church classes, take two years of "Catechism" classes and have it verified by our giving records that we were tithing 23.3% of our gross income before we were allowed to become members. We also had to be approved by pastors who subjectively judged whether or not they thought our hearts and character were supportive of the vision of the church. If we were found lacking in their eyes, we were not eligible for membership. And, if you are not a member of LFF, you are not aware of what goes on behind the scenes. You do not get to know how or where money is spent, and you are not able to speak your mind (your voice makes no difference there anyway. the leadership does whatever it wants.) At my new church we went to one post service meeting, held once a month, where those who wished to be members of the church came and the vision and beliefs of the church were explained. The beliefs were basic (one God, the Trinity, water baptism, etc...) and were those all Christians should believe. If we believed the same thing, we prayed together with everyone else and just like that we were members and could attend meetings to vote on important church decisions. Can you imagine the idea of an objective vote at LFF?
4. (via email) We found that too much service had adverse effects on our family. My wife and I spent so much of our time serving that our kids behavior was affected. Because we didn't spend enough quality time with them-playing, loving, conversing-they developed some unsatisfactory behaviors of kids who were not loved enough. The Vances had convinced us that our service was needed literally seven days a week. I could give you a rundown of what we did every day, but I am sure you understand and relate. In our new church, we have found a couple of ways our service really helps the local body. But the time committed is only a fraction of what it was at LFF. Our children have come around and our family is closer than ever. I am glad we got out of there when our kids were young. I see the results of the families really close to leadership whose kids were never shown the proper love and attention. I fear for the Vance's own children. I am so thankful that our eyes were opened before our family was sucked in and became like the average LFF family.
There must be many other helpful lessons learned by those who have attended LFF in the past. We invite readers to post examples, thoughts or questions in the comment box...
While many have expressed that simply finding any church other than LFF was an amazing relief. Truly, moving from a controlling and abusive environment to any safe environment has obvious value. However, there are things learned from LFF that have opened our eyes to how things can be better at other churches. These are posted below:
1. I am very wary of churches undergoing large building projects. I was there when Karl Barden effectively pulled the wool over our eyes and convinced us Living Faith Fellowship needed a new building. That year, as with every year at LFF, we sang "There's Gonna Be A Revival In The Land" and listened to the 'prophets' proclaim that the harvest was ripe and God was bringing 'great increase.' Karl told us to expect the communities to come flocking to our church. What was really his laziness in being unwilling to have more than one service in the smaller building turned into the manipulation of the congregation to undertake the building of a 2200 seat monstrosity. This church has financially crippled the entire congregation. I could write an essay on how money ought to be spent in a church, but that is not the point here. At LFF the building is really a sunk cost that looks horrible in the eyes of the community, and is a 2200 seat reminder to anyone who knows the Truth About Living Faith Fellowship why they should avoid association at all costs. I would hate to be part of another church wasting money on a large building which would hurt growth, evangelism and ability to support the poor and needy and Biblical programs in the future.
2. (via email) I will never go to a church again where the pastors are worshipped or viewed with an unnecessary amount of success. I visited a church for awhile after leaving LFF which I thought was great. That was until I found out how the senior pastors were treated. They had "armorbearers" which took care of their every need and waited on them hand and foot. These servants were bending over backward to take care of all the tiny little details that the pastors needed and were treated like rubbish. The pastors clearly thought they were above the people serving them, and had obvious pride issues. This was an eerie reminder to me of the situation at LFF, where I witnessed the lives of some of my closest friends ruined through close service of the pastors. The LFF pastors created this conception that those that served them were the ones that were closest to them, and were those with true 'servants hearts.' Publicly the servants were treated well in most cases to further the false notion in the eyes of those on the outside looking in. But privately, these servants who wanted the love and acceptance of the pastors were abused and manipulated and used to take care of everyday tasks in the pastors' families' lives they felt they were above. I know of true stories of those who have cleaned Vance's childrens rooms on a weekly basis while the kids played. People did their laundry, folded their clothes and undergarments, cleaned their entire houses, made them food, gave them nightly massages, waited on them hand and foot--all in the name of 'service of the Lord.' This was not exclusive to vances, but was pretty much standard across the board for most of the LFF leadership. Serving in itself is not wrong in any way, as truly Jesus served everyone. However, when the servant is abused and manipulated in a way that is detrimental to them physically and emotionally, that is wrong. That is what scares me about pastors who are full of pride and think they deserve special service.
3. (via email) At my new church, one does not have to attend church for years and take special classes to become a member. At LFF we were required to take the introductory church classes, take two years of "Catechism" classes and have it verified by our giving records that we were tithing 23.3% of our gross income before we were allowed to become members. We also had to be approved by pastors who subjectively judged whether or not they thought our hearts and character were supportive of the vision of the church. If we were found lacking in their eyes, we were not eligible for membership. And, if you are not a member of LFF, you are not aware of what goes on behind the scenes. You do not get to know how or where money is spent, and you are not able to speak your mind (your voice makes no difference there anyway. the leadership does whatever it wants.) At my new church we went to one post service meeting, held once a month, where those who wished to be members of the church came and the vision and beliefs of the church were explained. The beliefs were basic (one God, the Trinity, water baptism, etc...) and were those all Christians should believe. If we believed the same thing, we prayed together with everyone else and just like that we were members and could attend meetings to vote on important church decisions. Can you imagine the idea of an objective vote at LFF?
4. (via email) We found that too much service had adverse effects on our family. My wife and I spent so much of our time serving that our kids behavior was affected. Because we didn't spend enough quality time with them-playing, loving, conversing-they developed some unsatisfactory behaviors of kids who were not loved enough. The Vances had convinced us that our service was needed literally seven days a week. I could give you a rundown of what we did every day, but I am sure you understand and relate. In our new church, we have found a couple of ways our service really helps the local body. But the time committed is only a fraction of what it was at LFF. Our children have come around and our family is closer than ever. I am glad we got out of there when our kids were young. I see the results of the families really close to leadership whose kids were never shown the proper love and attention. I fear for the Vance's own children. I am so thankful that our eyes were opened before our family was sucked in and became like the average LFF family.
There must be many other helpful lessons learned by those who have attended LFF in the past. We invite readers to post examples, thoughts or questions in the comment box...
11 comments:
I've learned so much!
Most recently I've learned that if you are only hearing one message, or one side to a story, you should look to see if there is more.
If the pastor or leader says there is nothing else or that it is the absolute truth, then you should check it out for yourself. Today, we have so many resources to research any topic.
Questions are good, questions are your friend. I do not believe that God put questions in our mind without a purpose. Questions bring answers and in many cases questions bring resolve and healing.
If we truly are made in the image of God, then God must be curious too. I wonder what he is curious about. :)
I echo the lessons learned by others that are posted here. I have found it important to find balance in my life. I was literally doing church stuff or at church seven day a week and I saw my personal life and family life suffer greatly.
Yet when I tried to pull back on some of my involvements at LFF I was viciously scolded by the current senior pastor's wife. She questioned my relationship with Jesus and told me I was arrogant and selfish. She blamed my wife, saying I should not have married her and by doing so I was sacrificing my potential for the kingdom. This was a brazen heresy I have since realized.
At my new church, we have become involved but have done so only in things that God has placed on our hearts. We have done nothing to please people, instead we only serve out of genuine desire to please God. At LFF it was so easy to be manipulated into doing the pastor's chores.
I have found it important to examine my motives in doing things. I only serve God in the way He leads me. I wish I would have had this revelation at LFF. It would have saved me much heartache and strengthened my marriage. The manipulation by the pastor's wife would never have taken place in my life. I still feel violated to this day that she ever exerted so much control in my life and my marriage.
I have found that the most important service I can do is to those in my own community and neighborhood. Instead of spending 30 hours a week folding clothes, bathing children and cooking meals for pastors (who already know God) I have discovered the joy of serving those who don't know God... babysitting for needy single mothers, helping sick neighbors clean, giving needy people rides to the store, doctor etc, helping kids who want to go to church from the neighborhood etc...
I would much rather clean the toilet of my single mom friend who works 2 jobs just to make ends meet than a pastor who already has 6 or 17 other servants...
I have really learned the rewards from this true service
That last comment about serving those who really need our service, versus serving those who really should be getting up and doing a bit of exercise for themselves was hilarious...
And so true.
I am an ex-PCSer and I am grateful to God that I escaped LFF with few scars. After being born and raised there for the first 12 years of my life, I remember well the bitter tears that I cried when we were sent out to serve God in another state. It took many years to realize that it was not only “possible” that there were Christians outside LFF, but that the Church was a WHOLE lot bigger than I had been taught to believe.
As I read with grief the stories of wounded former PCSers, I have to ask myself - Why did my siblings and I escape the carnage that struck so many families? My parents had the courage to remain, through it all, a family. We still were very involved as members and we still slaved away at the church all day Saturday on custodial crew. I remember once finishing a bathroom which the crew leader said looked wonderful. My dad called me back, though, pointing out everything I missed – I cleaned for his approval, not for the approval of LFF.
My father was faithful to raise his children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Resisting the pressure of the leadership to conform and give over his children, he took seriously the responsibility that he has before God as a father. It is not a church’s responsibility or right to command what a family must do for service. It is not a church’s place to usurp parental authority to bring discipline on a child. It is abominable for a church to encourage families to sever ties with non-believing relatives. It is theft of the most heinous kind to claim the “rejoicing tithe” and the “poor tithe” to feed the wolves disguised as shepherds – think how much joy was robbed and how many families were impoverished by the leadership at LFF. There are many more lessons I learned from listening and watching.
In the words of Solomon, “a good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children.”
My baby son will be baptized in a few weeks, and when I vow to raise him in the fear and admonition of the Lord, I will take that vow deadly seriously. The inheritance my father has passed on to me from his years at LFF is the knowledge that at the end of days, I will be held accountable (not the pastor or homecare or congregational care leaders) for the wife and children God placed in my care. I pray that I may be found faithful, as I know my father will.
Not all leadership had people washing their laundry and cooking etc. We were in leadership and everyone under us was always asking what they could do for us and how they could serve us. It made me really uncomfortable. I had a lot of pressure from the those above me and those below me to let people come and serve me. My kids did clean their own rooms and wash dishes and clean up after themselves. As a family we had a lot of pressure to look good. My house was always expected to perfect, clean and neat. I had to do all the service and work crews and all the multitudes of extra meetings and all the paperwork. Most of the real shame was the people who look at leadership and thought they could keep to all together and be at every meeting etc and still have a clean house etc. But they couldn't do it because they didn't have anyone to help them. It added to the sense of control leadership had over others. It was a wicked system and everyone was miserable.
I don't know if everyone lumps all leadership together or not. I tend to read "Barden's and Vance's" when I read "leadership". I am not sure who all of the "servant ministers" (or slaves) helped, but I know that many of the leadership that were CCLs and Pastors were honestly trying to do what they thought was the best for their sheep. I can't imagine what a heart rending decision it must have been for so many of you to chose to leave LFF. I have a degree from CMT, and I know that I treasure the things I learned while in college. But when I left LFF, I didn't give up an ordination. My heart goes out to you who did. I also applaud the sheer integrity it took. Great is your reward in heaven!
I agree with the last comment. I think your assumption seems to be the general consensus. I truly hurt for the "under-pastors" and CCLs, PCLs and HCLs that left. They were trying and the fact that their voices were not heard was devastating I am sure. I think when people read "leadership" they know who it is referring to. It was always taught, everything rises and falls on leadership. However, this was not the case when it came to the senior pastors. Everything only "rose" on them. In their eyes there was no wrong and to this day they take no responsibility for their failures and the hurts they have caused. This is hypocritical and seems to be the reason many people, including all of the "under-pastors" have left.
I know leadership. I know what it felt like to have them address the entire high school for the behaviors of two or three people. I know what it felt like to be in a family who was in leadership and to wonder why, at ten years old, I was required to keep my room perfectly clean, clean other people's houses and be involved in work crews, "HSCF" and every kind of production and issue there could possibly be. I remember being exhausted from everything, but still getting in trouble. I know it is hard to peg leadership and I know it's difficult to say it's one person or one couple. But it almost doesn't matter. Authority was abused. And kids got hurt. So what do you say?
To get back to the original post that we are commenting on, the writer said, "That year, as with every year at LFF, we sang "There's Gonna Be A Revival In The Land" and listened to the 'prophets' proclaim that the harvest was ripe and God was bringing 'great increase.'
Where is the prophetic accountability? I remember for years the words that went something like..."times are tough, God knows your suffering, but he wants a purified remnant, and his explosion of holiness is just around the corner, so hang on." Pretty much the same thing is being said now.
I remember when the building was dedicated that one of the visiting "prophets" said that people would be coming up the street on their knees to get to the church.
At other times, I remember another visiting "prophet" who prophesied a great return of those who had left LFF (now a very great number, it has literally got to be in the thousands).
I do not think much of these "prophecies." They have been born out of a desire to comfort the leadership, and what they have actually done is manipulate the masses.
We need to get real here. We will never see people crawling on their knees up Crestview to do some kind of penance and get into the church, and we will not see much of a return of those who have left. I don't know how it was for you, if you noticed the disconnect before you left and it was a factor in your leaving, or you had to leave and let the fog clear a little before you saw the disconnect. For me, I have to say it was a bit of both.
These issues of ineffective prophesyings are well discussed in a book that is unfortunately out of print called The New Charismatics by Moriarty. Get it if you can. He makes the case the the origin of prophesies that are not prophesies, healings that are only healings so long as you buy into the idea, abuse of eccliastical authority have their origin in the so-called Latter Rain Movement. It is very interesting so see the growth and development of these deceptions, whether intended as such or not.
As for the abuse of spiritual authority, we had one person who set all of the right doctrine, essentially one person defining orthodoxy, (a difficult job to be sure, since the Cloud was always moving and orthodoxy seemed to be a dynamic, not static process) one person holding the reins of Church authority, one person deciding financial matters, one person instituting recording practices and directing specific ministry. These were not all different people, although some of the grunt work was delegated, these functions were really all controlled by one person. We essentially had, and I suppose LFF still has, a charismatic pope. The problem is not so rare, it seems to be a frequent phenomenon in independent Charismatic and Baptist churches without proper scriptural oversight by elders. I once heard the pope declare ex cathedra on one occasion that he was the Angelos of the Church, much like I suppose the Churches in the Apocalypse each have an Angelos that John was to write to. In fairness, he did not explain what he meant, and I do not believe he was claiming to be more than a man, only that his office was something special. And I think there is something special to it, you just need to have real church elders, of which the pastor is one. Should we have been surprised when he took the plunge to declare himself the Apostolic Senior Pastor? By the time he had done so, it was already too late. Changes which should have been made years earlier were not forthcoming, and the result that the cracking foundation began to break. I pray that it is still breaking, that everything that needs to break will. All of these things have been removed from him. It is the hand of God, and nothing that we have done. Still, he has not listened.
It isn't easy to discuss these matters without seeming to fall into the ad hominem attacks that we have seen from the other side. But the truth is never served by capitulating to error. We don't have to strut the truth, there is no need. With truth, there is no need to paste on a plastic smile and pretend before the masses that your marriage is great and that everything is wonderful. With truth, it is OK to be honest. Truth is not a performance, truth is not "buck up, the show must go on."
We have left. We are witnesses. We could not find a papal ear to show these things to. We have showed them with our feet how things are. Perhaps they will listen to that, but most likely not. They will tell those still there that we are apostate, that our marriages are falling apart, that we have never known a moment of peace since we left, that we are infested with demons and that we have ungrateful spirits. They will tell them some new mantra, like "LFF has never been better!" to chant. They will feed them lies, deliberately or not I cannot say, they will manipulate them through the worship service, through the prophetic words, through loyalty and exploit fears and insecurities in the process.
The pope we got. What we need is a reformation.
To the previous commenter: Did you know that Orthodoxy is alive and well, in the various Orthodox churches around the world and in America? While Rome went one way, out on its own back in 1054, four other patriarchates kept the faith? That faith is unchanged from its final form, as set forth in the seven councils. I am beginning to believe that it is not reformation that is needed, but a return to Orthodoxy.
I have commented to my priest about the way that "Truth" seemed to be fluid, we were always waiting for God to do something new, and as you say, what was orthodox kept changing at lff. He found that to be very strange! I am glad to be in a more stable environment now, no longer waiting for the other shoe to fall.
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