From the comment box...
I don't know how you all find healing. Really, it's great that you do. But it's not so easy for everyone.
I myself have chosen indifference. I choose to not face the emotions and just put them away. Really, I now have no desire to go to any church. Yes, I do value friendship with God, but I struggle with understanding how He could let these pastors at LFF do so much wrong in His name. That kills me. I thought I could hear from God--His still small voice that I used to be able to guide my life with. But my days at LFF ruined that. I cannot hear God anymore-its all confusion. Why? All the times the leaders at LFF told me that what I heard from God was not accurate. The times they said that "God told them otherwise, and for me to proceed without their blessing would be sin." I don't know what I hear. It's a jumbled mess of confusion. Sometimes I think I hear some direction, but then I hear the still small voice on my other shoulder of some LFF person berating me for my "spiritual immaturity" and I lose it. I can't make THAT voice go away.
When I try to live for Christ it is so frustrating it brings me to tears. I can't do it without the scars from LFF being torn wide open. They hurt and I end up so confused. I don't know how to deal with it so I just shove my feelings. I avoid things having to do with Faith because that's the only way I know to deal with it. At least having the thoughts out of my mind I don't feel the pain.
How can you forgive? I have no desire to do so. Sure the Bible says to...but the Bible is paper and leather...it hasn't ever been in my situation so I have a hard time believing that it even applies. Who do I blame? I blame the current head pastors of the church and the campus pastor the most. They screwed with my head so much, all in the name of their little games. They tried so hard to get me in their system. I was one who could bring several other people along with me, so they tried very hard to rein me in. I was with them for awhile, but through it my heart for Christ was broken so badly I don't even want to try to pick up the pieces. I blame them. I have no idea how to forgive them, and am filled with scorn towards anyone who has the audacity to suppose I should just up and forgive them.
I don't blame myself. I was doing what I honestly thought was right. But because of that-my honest, pure intentions that left me ripe for manipulation-because of that I can't seem to forgive. They stole a lot of my life in college. They stole my heart out of my chest. Broke up my relationship with my first love Jesus and my second love who they said was not appropriate for someone of my spiritual potential. They said to pursue that relationship I would be unequally yoked. I may have missed the ONE for me.
I don't know where to go from here. I don't want anything to do with a church. I don't trust pastors, and I never will again. I see parts of LFF in every church I have ever tried since, and that scares the hell out of me.
My life without church and without christian friends seems to be going just fine. I have no problems, few worries, and don't have to deal with the pain and the scars from that infernal church on the hill in pullman. But deep down I know that I am missing God's best for my life and I don't know how to find it. I feel like it was stolen from me in my days in pullman. I feel like it's too late, and what could have been God's best for my life is now another trophy on vance's mantle.
I haven't been able to make it through a praise and worship experience without tearing up and having to leave. That was my favorite thing, and it was the biggest pawn that was used at LFF to manipulate me. It was what I lived for, and now it seems to be the death of me. What a legacy you have created, Joe and Kari.
I am sorry that my comment here is so negative, but I hope you see from it that not everyone finds the healing that is so trivially purported. Not everyone has been able to find a church and move on. I suppose there may be others like me, and in that I find a meager amount of solace. I wish there were none of us. Most of all I wish I could go back and erase what has been done. To go back in time to the moments that mattered most, and stand up to the people at LFF and tell them they were wrong. To look them in the eye and defy the manipulation and control with strength I found in my own integrity. But I know that will never be. What is done is done, and I live with the regret.
I only have two wishes now. One to be able to forget--I have no desire to forgive. And two, that no one else would have to be like me. You see, this is continuing to happen, and every day there become more people hurt by this place, some in big ways and others in small. And it is SO EVIL AND WRONG!!! I write with tears streaming down my face, thinking of myself, but even more of some of my old friends who are still there. People who HAD so much potential who have wasted it on such a shallow existence that is LFF. People unknowingly wrecked by a regime who doesn't even care for them. And that kills me. Why doesn't someone stop it? Why doesn't GOD stop it? I don't understand
First of all thank you for your comment, we admire your honesty and appreciate where your are at. Healing is never easy, it takes time; sometimes a lifetime is not enough. We, in no way intend to be trite when referring to this process nor do we wish to infer it is easy. Healing is anything but easy, it is painful, it requires resolve, tears, and many times, more pain. In this case it is much like when a surgeon must re-break a bone to align it properly before true healing can take place. In writing of healing, we encourage people to find it, but know that it is much easier said than done. It cannot be rushed; and in many cases the slow working hands of time seem only to lessen the pain but never truly erase it.
Everything I experienced at LFF, is now a jumbled mess. There was plenty of good and plenty of evil. My desire for more of Him was stifled. My pursuit of true worship was met with harsh words that served only to highlight my perceived "inadequacies." My relationship with Christ was crippled by those I let in my life to help it. And in all of this mess came an overwhelming sense of defeat. I have been overcome by a host of crushing emotions. And the pain and confusion have been accentuated by the irony of the situation. For truly it is ironic that the acceptance, love, compassion, and joy I sought in the church, I found outside the church. While the abuse, pain, and manipulation I thought I was escaping in salvation, greeted me in the form of a pastor. Some of the most Christ-like people I have met are in fact unsaved. And those who claimed to be the most "Christian" dealt my Christianity blow after blow, pausing only to scold my wincing.
So, at the risk of sounding cliche, I know where you are at. Though I am not familiar with all the details surrounding your confusion; I think I understand. If you feel I am way off base, I apologize and ask that you disregard this entire response. Obviously, you are still hurting and so are many others, myself included. The pain you feel, is at times overwhelming, and forgiveness of those who placed it upon you is the furthest thing from your mind. You have suffered specific wounds at the hands of those you trusted. You have been exploited, looked down on, manipulated, and cast out by those you thought had your best interests in mind. What has been done to you is sinful and unfortunately your situation is not unique; there are a host of others. That simple fact lead to the creation of this place.
It is deeply painful to all of us to read your story as many of us have been through that which you describe. Some of us with the same offending parties and others with different. And we, like you, were made to feel wrong for being hurt, we were criticized, trivialized and in many cases ostracized. All because of some subjective opinion of our perceived spirituality or level of commitment. What happened to you, to me, to all of us, IS WRONG. And one of the biggest challenges is moving on when those who wronged you will hear none of it and want nothing to do with you. Many of us, administrators and readers, have been labeled rebels, dissenters and cynics by the "nurturing shepherds" we so blindly trusted.
Enter confusion, guilt, inability to trust, anger, bitterness, unwanted tears, and broken relationships. And all this at the hands of Christ's Church? Surely a good God would never let this happen. But His thoughts are not our own, He knows best and He is bigger. I know, the colloquialisms can ring hollow after hearing them also on the lips of those who have caused this pain. Nevertheless, though their words may at times bring emptiness to the truth, it does not negate the truth. Throughout history some of the most shocking horrors against humanity have been carried out in the name of God. Genocide, rape, murder, and war all purported under the banner of our Savior. Yet God is God and every man a liar. So again I ask that you hear this with a different ear; God is bigger, He knows what He is doing. Even if what He has allowed to take place makes no sense to us; He is God. Here I refer you to the book of Job.
I know this is difficult for you, for all of us. The water is murky and sorting this mess out seems next to impossible. We have nothing but broken pieces and are left to make black and white out of the grey they created. We all hurt with you and we respect your honesty. It is difficult to forgive and that hardship is only magnified when those you must forgive claim no wrongdoing. Even if you choose to forgive them, you may still be labeled the offending party. I know in their eyes they did nothing wrong to me and this demoralizing turmoil is to them, my own making. So, though I have chosen to forgive and move on; I am still plagued by confusion, a menacing inability to trust, and these wounds that seem as if they will never leave me.
I have forgiven and yet I find myself still forgiving. At times anger overwhelms me and I must deal with it all over again. Is it false repentance? That is what they would have me believe but that is simply not true. These wounds are specific and they are many. At times the pangs come in the least expected moments. I believe (and I am no way touting this as doctrine, take it or leave it) when Jesus said seventy times seven He was referring to the same offense. He knows the human heart and knows that sometimes you must forgive the same thing countless times. So yes, I have forgiven, and yes, I am forgiving, and yes, I will forgive. Many times forgiving is the last thing I want to do and in doing so I re-introduce the hurt.
Yet while forgiveness has come, trust has not. I can honestly say, I will never trust the senior pastors at LFF again. To do so would be foolish. This fact has been a crucial part of my healing. I can forgive but I don't have to allow them any power or influence in my life ever again. I would never ask a victim of abuse to prove the validity of their forgiveness by spending some quality alone time with their abuser. Why? Because the abuser destroyed their trust and while one might forgive the abuse, it would be idiotic to expect that in forgiveness lies restored trust. In forgiveness you will find the first steps toward recovery but forgiveness never requires that you open yourself up again to those who hurt you. Please do not hear us as those who would glibly tout healing. We know it is a long process and for some this process may never end, and that is okay.
We wish in no way to prod you to forgive or to be healed. That is something only you can do and only when you are ready. Within the walls of LFF were systems that were supposed to mold you into the uniform "Christian" they envisioned. Here that is not the case. There is no secret formula, no program, no crew and no meeting with oversight that will heal you or set you free. Instead, there is only prayer. We all pray that healing takes place and forgiveness comes to each and every one of us. Yet, we realize this will be a unique experience for everyone, never easy, never shallow, and never brief.
We come here at many different stages in the healing process. In this place we hope that many may find some sort of healing. We hope those who have made it further in the process can offer both encouragement and sympathy to those who have yet to take the first step. We offer this place as a community forum on the road to recovery. We expect nothing of anyone who comes here and seek to rush this process for no one. It is our true desire to aid any of you in any way that we can. Though none of us will ever be able to erase the wrong doing or the painful memories; we hope the words on this page bring some form of relief. We pray God blesses every one of you no matter where you are in your journey. We desire that each one of you know a true and simple relationship with God. This can be replaced by nothing, and even if your trust in any pastor is forever destroyed please don't let that destroy your trust in God.
Everything I experienced at LFF, is now a jumbled mess. There was plenty of good and plenty of evil. My desire for more of Him was stifled. My pursuit of true worship was met with harsh words that served only to highlight my perceived "inadequacies." My relationship with Christ was crippled by those I let in my life to help it. And in all of this mess came an overwhelming sense of defeat. I have been overcome by a host of crushing emotions. And the pain and confusion have been accentuated by the irony of the situation. For truly it is ironic that the acceptance, love, compassion, and joy I sought in the church, I found outside the church. While the abuse, pain, and manipulation I thought I was escaping in salvation, greeted me in the form of a pastor. Some of the most Christ-like people I have met are in fact unsaved. And those who claimed to be the most "Christian" dealt my Christianity blow after blow, pausing only to scold my wincing.
So, at the risk of sounding cliche, I know where you are at. Though I am not familiar with all the details surrounding your confusion; I think I understand. If you feel I am way off base, I apologize and ask that you disregard this entire response. Obviously, you are still hurting and so are many others, myself included. The pain you feel, is at times overwhelming, and forgiveness of those who placed it upon you is the furthest thing from your mind. You have suffered specific wounds at the hands of those you trusted. You have been exploited, looked down on, manipulated, and cast out by those you thought had your best interests in mind. What has been done to you is sinful and unfortunately your situation is not unique; there are a host of others. That simple fact lead to the creation of this place.
It is deeply painful to all of us to read your story as many of us have been through that which you describe. Some of us with the same offending parties and others with different. And we, like you, were made to feel wrong for being hurt, we were criticized, trivialized and in many cases ostracized. All because of some subjective opinion of our perceived spirituality or level of commitment. What happened to you, to me, to all of us, IS WRONG. And one of the biggest challenges is moving on when those who wronged you will hear none of it and want nothing to do with you. Many of us, administrators and readers, have been labeled rebels, dissenters and cynics by the "nurturing shepherds" we so blindly trusted.
Enter confusion, guilt, inability to trust, anger, bitterness, unwanted tears, and broken relationships. And all this at the hands of Christ's Church? Surely a good God would never let this happen. But His thoughts are not our own, He knows best and He is bigger. I know, the colloquialisms can ring hollow after hearing them also on the lips of those who have caused this pain. Nevertheless, though their words may at times bring emptiness to the truth, it does not negate the truth. Throughout history some of the most shocking horrors against humanity have been carried out in the name of God. Genocide, rape, murder, and war all purported under the banner of our Savior. Yet God is God and every man a liar. So again I ask that you hear this with a different ear; God is bigger, He knows what He is doing. Even if what He has allowed to take place makes no sense to us; He is God. Here I refer you to the book of Job.
I know this is difficult for you, for all of us. The water is murky and sorting this mess out seems next to impossible. We have nothing but broken pieces and are left to make black and white out of the grey they created. We all hurt with you and we respect your honesty. It is difficult to forgive and that hardship is only magnified when those you must forgive claim no wrongdoing. Even if you choose to forgive them, you may still be labeled the offending party. I know in their eyes they did nothing wrong to me and this demoralizing turmoil is to them, my own making. So, though I have chosen to forgive and move on; I am still plagued by confusion, a menacing inability to trust, and these wounds that seem as if they will never leave me.
I have forgiven and yet I find myself still forgiving. At times anger overwhelms me and I must deal with it all over again. Is it false repentance? That is what they would have me believe but that is simply not true. These wounds are specific and they are many. At times the pangs come in the least expected moments. I believe (and I am no way touting this as doctrine, take it or leave it) when Jesus said seventy times seven He was referring to the same offense. He knows the human heart and knows that sometimes you must forgive the same thing countless times. So yes, I have forgiven, and yes, I am forgiving, and yes, I will forgive. Many times forgiving is the last thing I want to do and in doing so I re-introduce the hurt.
Yet while forgiveness has come, trust has not. I can honestly say, I will never trust the senior pastors at LFF again. To do so would be foolish. This fact has been a crucial part of my healing. I can forgive but I don't have to allow them any power or influence in my life ever again. I would never ask a victim of abuse to prove the validity of their forgiveness by spending some quality alone time with their abuser. Why? Because the abuser destroyed their trust and while one might forgive the abuse, it would be idiotic to expect that in forgiveness lies restored trust. In forgiveness you will find the first steps toward recovery but forgiveness never requires that you open yourself up again to those who hurt you. Please do not hear us as those who would glibly tout healing. We know it is a long process and for some this process may never end, and that is okay.
We wish in no way to prod you to forgive or to be healed. That is something only you can do and only when you are ready. Within the walls of LFF were systems that were supposed to mold you into the uniform "Christian" they envisioned. Here that is not the case. There is no secret formula, no program, no crew and no meeting with oversight that will heal you or set you free. Instead, there is only prayer. We all pray that healing takes place and forgiveness comes to each and every one of us. Yet, we realize this will be a unique experience for everyone, never easy, never shallow, and never brief.
We come here at many different stages in the healing process. In this place we hope that many may find some sort of healing. We hope those who have made it further in the process can offer both encouragement and sympathy to those who have yet to take the first step. We offer this place as a community forum on the road to recovery. We expect nothing of anyone who comes here and seek to rush this process for no one. It is our true desire to aid any of you in any way that we can. Though none of us will ever be able to erase the wrong doing or the painful memories; we hope the words on this page bring some form of relief. We pray God blesses every one of you no matter where you are in your journey. We desire that each one of you know a true and simple relationship with God. This can be replaced by nothing, and even if your trust in any pastor is forever destroyed please don't let that destroy your trust in God.
10 comments:
Thank you for sharing your pain and confusion. I know that it must have been difficult to write all of that. I feel some of your pain (no way could I feel all that you feel).
I can't tell you how to handle the pain, the confusion. I can share what works for me. Forgiveness is something that can only come when you are willing to make that choice. I do know that the people who have wronged me, hold power over me unitl I forgive them. Releasing is what I have learned to do with the pain. I totally experience it let it go down all the way and really know how it hurts. Then I give it to God. I can't chose how others will respond to my forgiveness and they may never know that I have forgiven them. (As stated in the reply from the adminstrator, you don't have to spend any time with someone who has abused you.) It is not my job to chose their response, I only can chose my response. As I truly release the debt, I feel a sense of freedom. I have no one in debt to me any longer. I don't have to make them pay for the wrong they did to me.
I now go to a church that most of you would probably term "new age" so take what I say with the appropriate salt! ;-) Our pastor was recently talking about forgiveness and she said that "forgiveness is giving up the demand for a better past." That really stuck with me. I can't change my past, but I can change its effect on me.
I have recently started singing and playing the piano at home by meself. I have been finding the joy of expressing my love for Christ and God all over. It is not for anyone else to hear, it is not to show off my awesome talent (yeah right!) It is only to express my heart to God. It is interesting that I feel closer to God now that I have taken all of the labels off of It. (sorry there is no appropriate pronoun for God since God is not limited to a gender. "It" is as close as our languange comes.) I also live in God's love and acceptance. I don't worry about others telling me if I am right with God. I know in my heart of hearts. Here is a little secret - You are too! I think my greatest prayer for all of us post-LFF, is that we see God's love and acceptance regardless of what we experienced at LFF.
Peace and Blessings! (and Joy!)
All I can say is, it takes time. You will be better in a year, or two, every year for me is better. In the last year, for instance, my wife and I both stopped having the occasional nightmares of being confronted all night long by one of the persons you mentioned in the original post. If I were to visit Pullman this weekend, the pit in my stomach would probably be smaller than it was a few years ago.
After five years, they say, things are a lot better.
Interesting about the nightmares. I still have them every once in a while. Sometimes mine center on get confronted about not getting some paperwork done or getting my hard work back with red circles all over the page. I have nightmare about stuff going on behind the scenes that screw up my life but I never know what it was about and or what the problem is. I wake up and am upset all day. We've been gone 4 years and it is considerably less but I didn't know others had the nightmares.
I've been gone for over 10 years and I still have uncomfortable dreams where I go back to visit at LFF and I'm made to feel inadequate by Sherri Barden or Juli Kobelin. I've talked to others that have similar type dreams, but different people confronting them.
I too have had bad dreams. I wake up feeling so inadequate. My biggest reminder is a lady who works in my building who looks and sounds remarkably like Juli Kobelin. She is actually the nicest person but just the sound of her voice makes my shoulders tense up and I feel sick to my stomach. I don't know what I'd do If ever came face to face with the real Juli again...
I have the bad dreams as well, getting blasted for something or other. Usually Kari Vance, or Karl Barden, or Kevin Hunter. I guess it all depends on who your oversight was while you were there. I used to get them a lot more when I left the church and still lived in Pullman. It helped to move away.
Thank you for sharing so openly. I really appreciate it because I was feeling like I was the only one that felt what you described. The inability and unwillingness to forgive, the confusion, and the pain and anger that comes flooding back almost every time I see a bible or hear a pastor speak. I really do feel what you feel. I am 6 years out.
One of the BIG revelations I had when I went to a different church was learning that conviction is the job of the Holy Spirit. It is not for the HCL, the CCL or the Pastors to convince me of my sin! It was amazing to learn that I didn't need a "shepherd" watching my life to tell me I am in sin. I think that is probably one of the biggest mistakes they make. I don't have to have dreams, when I can remember being "called on the carpet" or having a "Blue Room Experience". I remember us joking about it and even making a song about it to the tune of Blue Moon.
Even the caged bird sings!
Wow... Blue Room experience...
Haven't heard that term in a long time
I'll bet the ex and current pastors are having a blue room experience reading this blog...
I agree, it is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict and Kari Vance is not the Holy Spirit (contrary to her belief..which by the way, if she is the Holy Spirit, why doesn't she convict her son for his use of the internet....just a thought!)
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