Can You Answer These Questions? (via email)
Everyone has a story. Everyone has some (or many) painful examples to share. It is obvious how tightly woven together we were, and still are, because EVERYONE knows about this site!
Some simple thoughts, hopefully! First, there is no denying the pain expressed on this site. People are all at different levels dealing with and healing from the pain. God Bless us through it. But I feel the pain (even my own) is secondary to a very important consideration. I can’t tell you how many people - still at LFF or gone -have said, “I pray you are healed from your hurts and you are able to forgive.” Let’s be realistic. Forgiveness and hurt are not the primary issues here.
Integrity and truth are the ultimate issue. I spent years forgiving hurts that were put upon me, whether maliciously or unintentional. I’m sure others forgave me of hurts I inflicted on them. We were there and willing to overlook/forgive these pains (even when we recognized those inflicting them were seriously messed up) because we believed we were serving Jesus, His greater cause and we hoped for a great work to be accomplished at His hand.
IT IS NOT MY FAULT THAT MY HEART FOR HIM WAS EXPLOITED BY LEADERS WHO DID NOT TELL ME THE TRUTH AND USED ME TO ADVANCE THEIR KINGDOM. Even as a member and then as part of the leadership team, I was not told the truth. I have quit beating myself up over “Why did I stay?” “Why did I waste my life there?” “I’m so stupid to have stayed!” Do I regret it, you bet. Do I wish I’d have done differently, uh huh! Do I think I am stupid.
I trusted and believed there were checks and balances in place at levels of leadership to keep those aforementioned miscreants from coming into full power with their twisted sense of Christianity. I didn’t know that those at the top were the true masters of deception about how the church was managed and decisions made. There is no other way so many people, educated people, could have bought into this without trusting what they were told. But we didn’t know…. and I won’t carry the weight of guilt and shame for having tried to please Jesus.
The reason we trusted is simple…. Jesus and His Kingdom were used as leverage against us. How could we not believe they (the leaders) were giving all for Him, stewarding His kingdom and tapping into His wisdom? We were certainly working hard to do that ourselves. I still hope to be meeting that definition of Christendom according to the Bible. God, in His mercy, did bless many aspects of LFF but only because people with heart motives for Him gave so freely and willingly on His behalf. I also am convinced God brought to the leadership, both past and present, many opportunities to turn from their ways. I believe God would have blessed LFF mightily if they responded. I even stayed the last few years hoping for that change. Maybe God still would, but I don’t have as much hope for that as I once did.
I think everyone (especially those who remain) need to examine this list of questions. These are important to answer honestly about any leadership you would commit such loyalty to.
1. Do you trust Vances? Why or why not?
2. Do you trust what they say? Why or why not? What is that trust in their word based on?
3. Do you compare what they say to scripture? Why or why not?
4. Do you trust that they live by the same principles they teach? Why or why not?
5. Do you trust their representation of the Bardens? Why or why not?
6. Do you believe it’s ok for Vances or LFF to support the church in Port Ludlow in any way? Why or why not?
7. Do you trust their representation of their own marriage? Why or why not?
8. Do you trust their representation of their children? Why or why not?
9. Do you measure their pastoring against how scripture defines pastors? Why or why not?
10. Do you trust their representation of people who have left LFF? Why or why not?
11. Do you trust their representation of people who are still there? Why or why not?
12. Do you trust their representation on subjects brought up at members meeting? Are you aware of incidents where they did not accurately represent something you were part of, a meeting or an event? Are you aware of times when they sat silent while others shared inaccurately about incidents or events when they should have spoken up?
13. Do you know how decisions are made? Who has what authority to make what decisions? Are there any checks and balances? Why or why not? Do you know this based on their word or a proven and trackable record of decision-making?
14. Who decides how money is spent? Are there any checks and balances in the system? Why or why not? Is what you know just based on their word?
15. How are employees hired, treated and discharged? Who makes these decisions?
16. Who do the Vances seek out for their own advisory needs – personally and on behalf of the church? Do they seek this advice together as a couple?
17. Do the Vances have measurable job descriptions? Are you constantly feeling like they are soooo busy and such victims of the transition? Why or why not?
18. What role does Kari have, what is her authority and why?
19. If you are asked to participate in a “covenant” “core” or “commitment” relationship, what is the definition? What are the leaders responsibility to you in that? Is it primarily one way? Read Malachi 2:1-9
20. Do you feel Vances are qualified leaders you can follow or people you must continue to support because they’ve been so beat up?
Some may think these questions are not anyone’s business. But God’s Word makes plain the role and responsibility of pastors. They must give account to their congregation when their lives do not match up with God’s instructions. It is not wrong for those under their care to judge in this way. If you bring it to their attention, and then feel your own conscience is violated to continue to support them, you are free before God to get out!
This again is not about forgiveness. God does require us to forgive and that usually takes a lot of His help! For many people, forgiveness is a continual process. But even once we forgive, He does not require us to trust, agree, support, or get right with those we have conflict with once it is established that you cannot be reconciled.
There is no way God is going to hold me as accountable for my part at LFF as He will hold accountable the Pastor’s who knew (that is key since many of the pastoral staff were kept in the dark) what they were doing and why.
6 comments:
I really like what you wrote and the questions that you brought to my mind. It makes me think why i was not more vocal about some of the things that i struggle with. We all know we were taught to take care of problems with our peers. Communion being that example. Do you beleive if the Vance's were not runing LFF would the same problems be coming up. It seems that every church has its problems and seems to get by, will LFF ever get by? Will it every go back to the good days, or is there nothing good to go back to?
I chose to answer very few of the questions, but thank you for the questions. Many of the questions don't have easy answers.
3. Do you compare what they say to scripture? Why or why not?
Now I do. For far to many years, I took what anyone said at face value. I thought that they were wiser and more Christlike than me. I find it totally amazing that I memorized scripture for years and we were all taught to read our Bibles daily and yet for me, it took finally leaving Pullman to begin to read and understand the Bible for myself.
5. Do you trust their representation of the Bardens? Why or why not?
No. When you love someone or respect them, or even care about them deeply, then it is difficult to see them as they truly are. For me this is true of all my family relationships. I never want to believe anything bad about them. I just figure that it is the same for them.
8. Do you trust their representation of their children? Why or why not?
No, because I know their children.
10. Do you trust their representation of people who have left LFF? Why or why not?
No, because I left LFF. They don’t get to represent me any more and I don’t represent them either. No more “Remember, when you leave this building, you are representing LFF/PCS.” I get to represent Christ & that is all.
11. Do you trust their representation of people who are still there? Why or why not?
No, because I have friends that are still there.
13. Do you know how decisions are made? Who has what authority to make what decisions? Are there any checks and balances? Why or why not? Do you know this based on their word or a proven and trackable record of decision-making?
I know that there is a board of directors, however, I don’t know how much power that board actually holds.
14. Who decides how money is spent? Are there any checks and balances in the system? Why or why not? Is what you know just based on their word?
I don’t know how they spend their money, but I do know that by law, if you donate money for specify that you want it used for something particular, it must be used as you requested.
to author:
Q's 7 & 8, which marraige and which children do you speak of specifically? anyways, good post, good thoughts, and a harsh reality.
The last part of the above comment reminds me how that really used to upset the leadership. I can remember them saying that you can't specify where your offering goes. We were supposed to trust the board to make good decisions as to where the money went. Now, I wonder, where did all of that money go?
The church I am at now is starting a building program and they have 4 stages planned. They are not going to have a big push to raise money for the project. They have enough money to do phase 1 and 2. When there is enough money given (freely) to do the other phases, then (and only then) will those phases be done.
That seems much better than the whole selling of bonds and pressuring people (who are already strapped for cash) to buy into a project that we really didn't need.
Don't get me wrong, I love the performing arts and I loved being invovled with the big productions (even though the writing will never win any awards). It just seems that we could have modified the old building to meet the needs of the masses instead of building the "worship arts center".
Does LFF support Door Of Grace in Port Ludlow? hmmm, now that's verrry interesting.
I don't believe that Vances running LFF is the reason for the problems. It is their FAILURE to take on the role of Pastors that causes the problems. It is their failure to acknowledge the mass of people leaving based on broken trust. It is their disregard for the literally hundreds of people, under their God given care, coming to them in tears and begging them to get help and change. These statements are all true of the former pastors, too.
In regard to "every church has it's problems" you are absolutely right. But any church leadership functioning in a way that leaves basic questions of stewardship and care (both of people and resources) so grossly unanswered, has more than just a normal "problem" that comes from being human. We are not talking about expectations of Vances that are super human. We are talking about basic trust in normal stewardship and care as pastors before God. They, and their parents, may take responsibility for the actions someday (God willing). But they will never regain the trust that has been lost.
The goodness you speak has always been found, and will continue to be found in the hearts of any sincere Christian at LFF. God Himself is the only one who knows if LFF "will get by". There certainly is a host of people with good intentions praying for and against it.
Questions 7 and 8 refer to the Vances marriage and children as this list pertains specifically to them. This kind can be generically applied to any church that you are considering supporting with significant committment.
If you aren't interested in a significant commitment, some of these items won't play as great a role in your trust of the leadership.
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