Questions via e-mail...
Dear Truth About LFF Blogspot Persons,
I came across the blog and read most of it. I have some questions about it that I hope you can answer. First, let me say that my husband and I are still attending LFF and we have been for 5 and 7 years. While we believe that no church is perfect and that LFF is certainly included in that statement, we haven't found anything so disturbing to make us leave. We think it's a good body and we have grown a lot here.
I do not think badly of you for making this website and pray for you all that your hurts will be healed and that forgiveness can come. I do not know what went on to make you leave, but I assume that each reason is very different. God Bless you as you grow in Him.
Anyway, my questions:
1. This blog seems really vague to me. Everyone seems hurt and mad at LFF but there are no specific instances of stuff that happened. Is this on purpose? I am curious to know what things happened to make people so hurt and angry at this church.
2. The files. I heard about these too and was upset. I went and talked to a pastor about this and asked straight up about these files. I was told that yes, files were kept, but they were in a locked file cabinet in the evangelism office. They were brief, no details and kept only for legal purposes, such as if someone tried to sue LFF for whatever. No pastors ever looked at these unless it was to add something to a file. I was told that the Vances decided to destroy ALL of these files and not to keep them anymore because it caused so many people to stumble. I was told that many churches kept files like this. However, on the blog there was a post about these files that said they were very, very detailed and had pictures, lists of sins, conversations, etc. Are you sure this person was telling the truth? How long ago did he/she find these files while vacuuming? Did s/he ever talk to anyone about them?
I know these are kind of long, but I am curious about these two items in particular. You can post these questions on the blog if you want, that way I may get some more opinions that just one person's.
Thank you
9 comments:
To your question about the files. I assure you, whoever wrote the post on the files was not lying. I too have seen the files, mine included, and detailed they were. They contained lists of sins I had confessed to as well as evaluations of "my heart of service" by crew leaders. I saw these files long after the Vances took over so they are not some thing of the past. Whether or not they were actually destroyed is highly questionable given that those who claim to have destroyed them were in fact the very same people maintaining them. Even if they have been destroyed, the fact that they ever existed is an atrocity and enough to undermine any trust I had in those I told my sins to in what I thought was strict confidence. I had no idea my sins were being documented and passed up the chain of command. It is truly disturbing.
As far as the files go, I have seen mine being used. When I went in for my member's meeting,to see if I was worthy membership...
The pastor had my file, and proceeded to bring up things from as long as 5 or 6 years previous,reading exact quotes including my exact words spoken in various situations, words I thought had been spoken in confidence... I was asked about situations that happened when I was a teenager (I was 22 at the time)because these things were an indication of my loyalty (or lack thereof). I was even asked if I would like to repent of these things (as if I already hadn't or as if the Holy Spirit and I hadn't had a conversation in 10 years, so I needed them to step in). Forgive me, because as I recall this situation, I find myself becoming a little angry about it.
God has really done a TON of healing in my life, and set me free in a lot of ways, which isn't to say He still doesn't have His work cut out for HIm :).I guess bringing up these things allows me to open up the sore a little more and let the air in, and the healing begin.
Anyway, I digress. This comment gives you a specific thing that happened to me (which you requested) and tells you about my experience with my file. As a side note, I too have seen the room with the files while cleaning on an all day summer work party.
The word on the street is that they have transferred all of these files to a complex computer system and there is a whole crew that works on it every Saturday. I have seen this crew at work, but I cannot attest to the detail found in these computer files.
Good luck in your journey to find the truth.
So you want specific examples? I'll give you a few...
1) One night, after a Wednesday service when we had a notable guest speaker, I was summoned from the altar while praying with 4 friends to receive more of the holy spirit. This guest speaker had just exhorted us to "ask for more" that we all had a direct link to God and could receive more of him if we only asked. I was summoned by my "PCL" (Pastoral Care Leader). Anyway, my "PCL" had me kneel on my knees in front of her (this was common practice, that way she was always looking down on you) while she demanded to know what I thought I was doing. I explained and then was berated for thinking I was a spiritual leader. "That is what the "Smiths" (name changed to protect said couple because they still attend) are for." Their job is to stand at the front after service and pray with people for more of the Holy Spirit. There I knelt for the next 20-30 minutes trying to see my sin because I couldn't be excused until I repented and she deemed it genuine. She was looking for me to exhibit signs of "brokeness". She broke me alright. I'm still working on getting fixed.
2)Another time when I was "serving" at said "PCL"s house. See, back then we had to prove we had a servant's heart to be deemed "marriageable" by leadership. If you couldn't obtain that label, you would never get their endorsement to marry and would remain single. So, I was told to make dinner. She had a specific meal in mind which I had never prepared and continued to bark orders from her barcalounger in the other room while I struggled to make this meal. Was the finished product met with approval? No,I was sternly told how to do it better next time and then sent off to bathe her children. This may not seem like a big deal but it is indicative of how much control this person gained over me. When I was in her home, I was treated like a slave, and I accepted it because in order to survive in this organization I needed "favor" in her eyes, not God's, HERS.
3)I applied for membership. I had finally been deemed marriageable, fallen in love and was getting married to a man already in membership. In my membership meeting, out came my file and they were able to tell me precisely how many crews I'd served on. "Congratulations, You have a servant's heart." On to footwashing. They could tell me how many times in the history of my attendance I'd done footwashing. "Not enough, you'll have to do it at the next available session." On to the spiritual notebook. "How often do you write?" Not enough. "Write every day for the next two weeks and we'll meet again." I was hanging by a thread. Oh, they wanted me but I was going to have to "prove myself" further. Two weeks later during Worship Celebration (a night when footwashing was held) I was summoned out of worship by one of the ushers and sent to the two pastors who had held the membership meeting with me. "You only washed one persons feet tonight, why?" I replied that I only felt I needed to invest in one person that way, I had no undealt with "ought" and the few other people I was close to that I asked were unavailable. "Unacceptable." They proceeded to angrily berate me on how "hard" I was and how I would not be marriageable if this was my attitude, and on, and on. All of this just three pews from the front of the sanctuary in the MIDDLE of worship to God. I was then told that after worship celebration, I would need to produce my spiritual notebook for review. This one thing that was supposed to be between me and God was open for review from these two pastors. I wonder why I didn't like to write in it... I scurried to the back of the church, my heart racing and quickly made false entries dating two weeks back. I revealed sin in those entries so they would think I was being "real". There was no way I was going to get yelled at again. After worship, my notebook was retrieved from me and reviewed. They weren't really sure I was Membership material but they'd let me in by "grace" and continue to monitor my "spiritual growth."
Good for you that you are "growing" there. A lot has changed in the last five years so consider yourself lucky. I on the other hand, after moving out of Pullman, took a whole year before I could even walk into a church without feeling sick to my stomach and wanting to burst into tears and run the other way. The files exist, they ARE detailed, and they were used for control. I know because I attained a high enough level of leadership to contribute my own evaluations of "sheep". I was becoming aware at that point and tried to protect those sheep but my paperwork would come back with directives on how to "minister". It was always to point out a negative, never a positive. We left shortly thereafter.
Even after being gone awhile, I see the effects of the control. I was trained to disappoint. I was never good enough. I don't feel adequate in my job, in my marriage, in life. Thankfully, my husband knows first hand the damage and we have grown closer since leaving. I know very well the pain of those who add to this site. I'm no longer bitter, just "real" about what happened to me and will NEVER let ANYONE control me again. Perhaps one can grow in the "new" LFF but be warned. These are not brand new pastors. They were there during the whole time and are very capable of control and manipulation. I still witness it among friends who remain and it makes me so sad for them. I heard that they dismissed the book "Twisted Scriptures" as not applying to LFF. I've read it and it could have been my very own diary in parts. Read it and then decide for yourself if this is really were God has you or if it's where "the Church" has you.
Specifics - how about on my wedding day, getting pulled out of the "brides dressing room" two hours before the ceremony being told my wedding was being cancelled because one of the pastor's wives had "ought" with me and I didn't wash her feet at the last footwashing. I was able to go ahead with the wedding only because I had asked that pastor's wife to come and she was too busy until the "end" and the pastor in charge said we could not - we were out of time. (By the way this said pastor's wife was the matron of honor - I was not allowed to have my sisters in the wedding then - they weren't spiritual enough or I "wouldn't get married there")
How about being pulled into a pastoral office countless times while a PCL told me that my husband was an "unspiritual man", "lazy", "no servants heart", "hard hearted", "holding me back". How many times? More than I could count. It was always the woman pulling you out singly - they don't like accountability either, so they never do that in front of their husbands. Oh, by the way, my husband spent between 20 and 30 hours a week serving at the church.
How about being assured that if you applied for "deliverance", your 10 page application detailing your issues was confidential, only to see and find out they get passed around to the pastors, PCLs and others.
How about being told regularly that you are wicked, hard hearted, not a servant, selfish, etc. because you spend your days off and evenings taking care of your family and home? Is something wrong here?
How about coming to ask questions about things that don't seem quite right and then getting blasted and made to repent - suddenly everything is turned around on you and "you're sowing discord", "you're critical", etc. Never any possibility that there is something wrong with the organization.
Let's see 20 years of examples...could take forever.
My question is this - how long and how many times are you all going to say, "it's changed so much, it's so much better"? and why do you still need to? Shouldn't the fruit speak for itself?
I don't spend my days stewing or hating - nothing even close, but like the other entry - what happened to us and what continues to happen in the name of ministry should be called for what it is - wrong! I am just not going to let it happen again and will try to help others.
I think it is purposely vague in a lot of cases for fear of repercussions. In other words, if I share specific examples like the brave person before me did, I could become a target of retaliation from the pastors. Chances are they wouldn't waste their time, but I don't want to take that chance. If they can figure out who posted the examples, couldn't they do things to hurt me? Sabotage my job, my family, my political aspirations, perhaps? Those are the kinds of things abusive people do. I wouldn't put it past them.
I can relate to a lot of the examples above. Things definitely got shared among leaders that I thought would be kept confidential when I shared them. I also was yelled at and made to feel unworthy just before my wedding. What a sick exertion of control that was! Did it make me grow and become a better wife? No way! It made me shut down and become less of a person. They always found a way to keep us small! Feeling like we were unworthy, less than human.
I agree with the blogger above. But I can assure anyone that information is shared faster than you may ever know.
Example. I had a meeting with my Going for the Gold "GG's" guide and then walked less than a block to a pastor's house to visit them.
During that walk my GG's guide called the pastor and told them some of the things I had said. When I arrived at their home, I was reprimanded for the things I had talked with my GG's guide about and made to repent for something.
By the way . . . I have no idea what I repented for at LFF. I repented daily and I can't remember any great reason why. That is no way to live life, in guilt all of the time. Live freely. Enjoy life, all of it.
To the person who is still at LFF:
You have no idea how often you have been and continue to be deceived at LFF. I know many who have caught the Vances in lies about various issues and it has occurred even in the last few months. I caught Kari in several lies and I was deeply grieved that someone who had no grace on others she had caught lying, would be so into the practice herself.
When asked about issues that are causing people to leave, the Vances frequently reply "I don't know what you are talking about". The truth be told, people have gone to them over and over again with abuse issues and they won't hear it.
You can't tell me it's changed when they continue to refuse to come clean about things they have done to people and continue to lie. They want everything to look good but won't face the rot that is at the core. By their own teaching if things were really different they would have "Repented and confessed".
Neither of things have happened.
Please remain open to things God puts in your heart. Too many of us were afraid we were critical, or something was wrong with us so we kept our mouths shut or shut down our intuition. We didn't tell the emperor (or emperess in this case) about her lack of clothing.
Don't be afraid to contact people who have left (there is over 250 in the last couple years) and ask questions. You will find many of us are going on loving God but are still deeply hurting from LFF and are in the healing process.
As for the files...they are real. I grew up at LFF, and my parents were in leadership from the time I was 5. Each week, my mom would scramble to finish her report before Wednesday night church. The reports contained details about contacts made with each "sheep" and how they went. In fairness to those who were in lower levels of leadership, they also had to write even more detailed reports on themselves (including a "numbers" sheet, which included information about how many times they had read the Bible and Closer Walk that week and how many times they had written in their spiritual notebook) to turn in to "oversight" each week. What a weird childhood I had...
Anyway, as for information spreading through leadership quickly, it definitely did. And it spread among leadership's children. Like lightening. We at PCS used to laugh about the fact that if you wanted to know what was going on in anybody's life, just ask the kids whose parents were in leadership. We had a very tight network...and we knew way more than any youngster should. It horrifies me to admit this now and I am so ashamed of what we did, but it was all we knew. I have no idea if it is still like this--I graduated several years ago. I'm just sharing my experience when I was at PCS.
Yes the files are real. Yes the files are detailed. I used to write reports since i was a crew leader (actual a couple) and a catechism councelor. Yes the pastors poured over these reports. When i expressed a concern to Dr. Barden he had one of his assistances spend a considerable amount of time going over my files to produce a list of all the times i was ever reported to have been "critical" and then i was told by him that "therefor i can reject your concerns because you have a critical spirit" or some such nonsence. I would have to characterise this as a classic case of un-forgiveness. Vances are by all reports continuing these practices which constitutes a classic case of false-repentance.
Nothing is forgotten. Nothing is forgiven. Nothing is missed. If they need to they will knock you over the head with it without hesitation. Will Vances repent from these transgressions? Let them come on this BLOG site and put it in writing.
Vances apparently have said that people have stumbled over the practice of filing. The manor in which files are used is disturbing - well i have a verse for them. "it would be better for him if a mill stone was hung around his head and he be cast into the depths of the sea than to cause one of these little ones to stumble". I didn't say that, Jesus said that.
Their response is reminiscent of the old days when the term "closed group" was discarded in favor of "members meeting". Nothing about the practice was changed - just the switch to a more palitable name.
As far as your question about why more specifics are not mentioned the reason is simple. There is a certain amount of fear of retaliation. LFF is a climate, no a world of fear. Love would not hurt this much.
Regards, George N. Sally
To those who were brave enough to share specifics, i admire you. I have know doubt you have been identified. I rather suspect that i have been identified also. Do let us know if anything comes of it. The only way to cure this malignancy called LFF is to expose it to the light.
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