Service to God or School
Hi. I came across your blog some time ago and have found it interesting. I haven't read everything, but I've read a lot.
I did want to add a comment to the blog. Actually, I'm hesitant about posting this, but I haven't noticed anyone else mentioning this.
Many people were very involved at LFF, sometimes putting 20 or even more hours per week into service there. Many of those people were students at WSU or U. of I. I remember pastors claiming that the amount of time people were putting in at LFF did not take away from their studies, and I remember Pastor Karl or Pastor Sherri giving an example of a girl who was failing most of her classes, but after she was helped at LFF, her gpa rose to a 3.8. They never named the girl, and I personally didn't know anyone there for whom that was the case.
I've wondered how many people did sacrifice study time and perhaps had lower grades as a result of getting too involved at LFF? Was that the case for anyone? I know of at least a couple of people who came to WSU with high hopes of, after getting their bachelor's degree, going on to medical school or to grad school to work towards a Ph.D. They got involved at LFF and before too long abandoned those dreams and settled for just the bachelor's degree.
These days getting graduate degrees is no longer just for people who are brilliant or rich. Many fairly average people pursue advanced degrees. A lot of grad programs offer assistantships to a good number of students they admit, and these assistantships usually cover tuition as well as providing a stipend (which would take care of the cost of grad school).
It seemed not very many people at LFF went on to grad school, at least compared to other WSU and U. of I. students. I know, there were many exceptions, and I could name some myself. But most LFFers I met considered their education complete after finishing their bachelor's degree and also taking classes offered at LFF as part of the bible college. I know Pastors Karl and Sherri got advanced degrees, and some of the other pastors there got master's degrees bestowed on them by LFFMTC. (I was there until right before the senior Bardens left when there were still several sets of pastors.) But were people who came there as college students not encouraged to pursue further education? What was the deal with that? I realize I don't have all of the information concerning that, but I did wonder what the truth about that was.
30 comments:
I don't think it was a matter of being discouraged from seeking further education but it was more of a catch 22. You were told to do good in school, but you were also told to be a servant at church. Church became the "cool" thing to do because all your friends are there, there is always a party or event going on and to miss out wouldn't be cool.
I remember my HCL's requiring me to fill out one of those 24 hour calendars and saying that every hour is a usable one to God. SO I ended up having to get up at 4 and not go to bed til midnight just to get everything done on my list. (I'm a type A personality so they knew if I had a list I wouldn't rest until I could cross everything off of it). Anyway I guess God didn't view our time of resting our bodies as productive, at least that's the impression I got.
After my husband finished his BA we were already out of the church and the only thing we wanted was to get the heck out of pullman. He's getting a second degree now.
FOr me I was never really passionate about school. I went because its what I was supposed to do. I got my MRS. degree if ya know what I mean. ANd I'm okay with that. I made that choice not LFF
You raise some good points about LFF, education, etc. In spite of what may have been said about calling and vocation, a job outside of the church was not really considered legitimate. Of course, some people needed to work outside the church so that they could bring in some fresh tithe money, but while I was there, members were encouraged to only put in a minimum number of hours at work, just enough to get by. We missed out on the opportunity to honor God by being excellent at our professions. Due to this stunted view, graduate studies were generally discouraged as more "kingdom work" could be done by someone with a job that asked little of them mentally. It is quite a short-sighted perspective. Maybe in the short term, a person could have great impact by spending all available hours in ministry. However, in the long term, a person who pursues a graduate degree and goes on to impact their chosen field may have just as great of an influence for God.
I went on to get a second BA in Biblical Studies at CMT, and a Masters in Library Science as a distance student at the U of Az. My wife was encouraged to get a Masters in the Fashion department at WSU. I know my good friend Ray was working on his PhD in Experimental Psych.
So, LFF didn't discourage people from seeking advanced degrees. It is just a matter of priorities. Some people were encouraged to put their effort into school, some into work all while serving on as many crews as possible. I think I was Cat. Counselor and BTH teacher as well as working in Shiloh and doing the Van run and being in the orchestra while I was working on my masters. Of course something suffered. In my case it was my children.
I don't regret that I went to grad school. It opened up my world view to see that God is much bigger than I ever thought. I only regret that I didn't spend more time with my family than I did at church.
John Brower
I agree, there's tons of people who are seeking/have obtained more than a bachelor's degree. I've never told anyone they shouldn't. in fact, i have always encouraged those people to go as far as God is calling them to go with school, and when they got into grad (heavy load) programs, we have been careful not to ask too much of them, and have taken care to guard their time and make sure that they keep their schooling in the right prioritized order: BEFORE ministry.
and to the original question about 'who was that girl who started doing so well after joining LFF' - i was told her name. i know who it was (if i remember correctly - that was awhile ago) - because then she was one of the people who we were encouraged to talk to if we needed time management help.
OK (I haven't seen this site in months and months, but I saw this one and had to respond) - I was that student, but I have to say, while the time mgt was helpful and I still use organization and time mgt in degrees today, it was not the only thing that made the difference. I was a diligent student and studied hard. I used every minute I had to study or review or read. And, I'm a good reader and memorize well, so that helped. I loved school and loved learning, but LFF/school was a very hard balance indeed. My personality is one that is organized and I still do believe that the right organization can help, but it's not a magic pill. I organized and managed to survive! Honestly, it was a "sink or swim" strategy for me so that my family did not get the total shaft!
I do have to say, although things were never "outright" discouraged, there was a point that I was enrolled to attend nursing school and get a different degree from my bachelors (which was essentially of no use in Pullman) and was told by my HCLs at the time that it "was sin" for me to go, so I disenrolled. I have regreted that decision many times since then, but am thankful that God has restored what was destroyed and given us new avenues of healing and hope to walk in.
Education after getting your BA/BS was never discouraged from what I observed at LFF. From the time I started at LFF as a Freshman I let it be known that I wanted to pursue a JD. The pastoral staff knew this and really helped and encouraged me to continue in that direction. I was given books and invited to conferences about Christianity and the law. In the end I chose not to get my JD as I was burned out of school and studying. Very happy with my career now which involves the law. My HCL's and the Pastors where very helpful to me about my studies while at WSU. Maybe I was an exception, dont know but from my personal experience they gave me all the freedom and encouragement needed to pursue my goal.
Thanks for your responses.
So that student does exist and even responded to this post, which is nice. I found it interesting to read about your viewpoint.
That student hadn't been the main topic of my original post. I just brought it up because I'd noticed that sometimes the pastors mentioned such examples to defend themselves or to justify why it was good to put in a lot of time, service, or money at LFF.
Another example was Pastor Karl saying how there'd been someone in the congregation who failed to tithe 23 1/3 percent who then got into a car accident that cost the exact amount he/she owed in tithing money. (An example given to encourage or frighten us into tithing aplenty.)
I figured that the example about the girl who's gpa rose dramatically was given to encourage people to put in a lot of time at LFF, that with good time management, it wouldn't affect their grades negatively (and could even increase their grades).
While this might be true for a minority of people, my guess was that, more often that not, putting in huge amounts of time into LFF would have resulted in a person having less study time and hence poorer grades.
I wondered how many people, in hindsight, felt that had been the case for them.
About grad school, as I mentioned in my original post, I could even name some people from LFF who completed grad degrees, so I definitely knew there were some. It just seemed that, on average, less LFFers pursued advanced degrees than other WSU (and supposedly U.of I.) students.
I also knew some who abandoned their dreams of going to grad school after getting involved at LFF. One person in a leadership position told me that she even dropped out of school (when working on her bachelor's) to serve full-time at LFF. Another time, however, she gave a slightly different version of the story, saying she'd flunked out. So I did wonder.
I have to agree with you, I believe that LFF did seem to discourage advanced degrees, and the discouragement came mostly from how are you going to fit your church responsiblities with you school responsiblities and if you your church responsiblities start lacking maybe you need to look at your priorities and put Church(God) as number one.
Although I find the words of 10/24/2006 1:13 PM disturbing " when they got into grad (heavy load) programs, we have been careful not to ask too much of them" isn't this the whole problem with LFF, that we were "asked" to do stuff, I mean church shouldn't be something that hinders you in life and if you are try not to ask too much of them, why are you asking something of them at all. Why not scale back so people don't have be asked to do things.
"make sure that they keep their schooling in the right prioritized order: BEFORE ministry." any one who has been to LFF knows the priority list you set up it goes God, Family, Work, friends and when ministry is considered God, School is going to be second. Lastly don't tell me I don't know what i am talking about I grew up there I know, that what you percieve as not asking too much, is taken as guilt for not doing enough
no one had to make up stories about finances - in college i got lazy with tithing, just didn't want to do the math, and stopped for a couple months. i then got a speeding ticket, which i forgot to pay on time, so i got an extra fine on it, and the total amount (by the time i finally got caught up on my finances and tithed) ended up being exactly what i had NOT given to God in the previous few months. PK didn't have to "get" our money from us...God has His own ways!
I arrived at WSU and LFF with the full intent of going to graduate school one day and I was nothing but supported in that. I too went on to get my Masters in Library Science but in Ohio at Kent State Univeristy. I even met up with the Drivdahls there.
I think that in the whole time I was at LFF (2 yrs about) I only ever tithed $12 or maybe $10 because I just didn't buy into what they were saying. I especially felt this after PK telling us that if we were receiving loans or scholarship money we needed to tithe that as well. That was just wrong.
actually when I was there 2001-2004, and did GG's the lessons made it clear that if you recieve money for college or from anybody and that money is intended for a specific purpose, then you should not tithe with it because you would be going against the wishes/agreement of the lender/giver.
Now that's not to say that there was underlying mixed messages about tithing that contradicted GG's, but in my years there I never got pressured to tithe, until I expressed interest in becoming a "real member" but because I hadn't proven myself faithful with 6months of titithing and 6 months of custodial crew.
Thank god for that :)
KAL
...I wasn't worthy of becoming a member yet.
Sorry I guess I forgot to finish my sentence before
In the kingdom of God we are all not worthy yet he accepts us just where we are. Why would a church force anyone to tithe consistenly for six months and volunteer for six months in order to become a member. As long as one agrees with the basic doctrine of the church and wants to be involved what's the point of putting such stipulations on becoming a member of a church. Isn't the amount one tithes and the time we give a matter of the heart decided between God and the giver? It seems to me to be just one more way to control people in a fashion not set up by God. Those who couldn't make the time commitment or didn't tithe enough would feel not worthy to even be Christians. The condemnation one might feel would be horrendous! I am not part of the inner circle so I am not worthy might be ones thought. How sick! May God show love to all those that do not have to prove their worth by their actions. We are worthy only as Christs blood makes us nothing less nothing more.
My experience at LFF taught me the difference between the "party line" and the "party reality". Advanced degrees were encouraged in certain professions (Doctor, Dentist, Lawyer) but not as much as in others. Even though we were "free to go wherever and whenever" we wanted, the peer pressure and general direction provided by HCL's, etc., was to stay close to LFF, because it was the only place that provided: safety and security; or, the best opportunity to grow in ministry; or, true friendship; or, whatever else it was we thought we wanted in life.
And, if our lives proved to be less than fulfilling, it would mostly likely be attributed to a spiritual problem. I know far too many people who probably missed out on fulfilling careers and/or greater prosperity because they decided to stay at LFF. I cannot judge what their heavenly reward will be for thier choices, or even what earthly price they may have paid. But I do view this aspect of life at LFF as yet another grievous example of the overbearing control the church had of our lives.
Helen Behrens
Did the or do the Pastors and other leadership also tithe 23 1/3% of their incomes? I would really really like to know that!! They were forever buying houses and property or were landlords to most the college kids in the church - at least the JCDs.
Yes, they do. And then some.
Define 'and then some' please.
But the Pastors there also got stipends from the state and other "perks" that came with the job. These perks helped cover housing, etc. Just as it wasn't the same for the sheep vs shepherds with how much time we gave and how little we had leftover it was the same financially.
I must say, however extravagantly Bardens seemed to live, as much as it gripes me to say it, the Vances shopped "cheap" a lot and seemed a little more on the frugal side despite the perks.
Another thing to consider: Karl was well-off financially before LFF even started and had a nest egg to use for investing in property that would give good, consistent rental income. Vances didn't come from such a strong financial position.
All of the above is true. And please, before you critisize any sort of minor tax break that might benefit the Vances, please tell us all how much of YOUR income you are giving. If you want to know details, you could always ask them. But I would bet that none of the people commenting here give any double-digit percentage to any charity, much less any church.
Well, you are wrong. We have always given double digit offerings to every church we have belonged to, as well as additional offerings to charities and to missions. Just because we are no longer at LFF does not mean that we reject Biblical teaching. While we do not think that a required 23 1/3% tithe on gross income is Biblical, we have no dispute with God and His requirement for us to be cheerful givers.
Sounds like this is a sore issue with someone. For one thing, I saw the Vances savings balance on a bank slip one time and I must say at that time they were doing VERY well compared to most of the rest of the people I know. You could say that is God's blessing or extortion got them there, take your pick.
I think Vances and the Bardens were good at Business principles more than at helping people. They all have investments, too, while I know of people who were discouraged from investing in real estate in the earlier days, a thing that in the long run could have helped the church.
For the record we still give, too, as God puts on our hearts. And we did well above the tithe that was taught while there. As a a more mature Christian I started researching what the bible says more in depth as well as what was left out of the teaching at LFF.
For one thing, Paul, while teaching GENTILES (who knew nothing about the old testament law)never specifies for them an amount. He knew the law like the back of his hand. If he thought they would be under a curse for not tithing a specific amount, he would have taught them the right way.
God does bless a cheerful giver and the amount is between him and the believer alone.
You are definitely correct that Karl Barden was good with business principles. He is a good money manager. I came to LFF in the mid-70's, before it was LFF, and saw Karl's success as a dentist. I think that many of us saw his capabilities in that area and assumed that he was capable in all areas (or maybe I should just speak for myself). Anyhow, he did have credibility. The problem was that although he was successful in dentistry, it didn't automatically carry over into ministry, especially as the church grew. His carefulness and attention to detail (an asset in dentistry) led to an obsession with controlling details of people's lives.
Yhis posting is so funny because half of my friends never even graduated from college. They are now trying to make up for that but they were not encouraged. It was hard to be a student!!! I barely graduated. I was kicked off from JCD's for a year and that is the only year I really succeeded.sp? It takes a very disciplined person to keep up the schedule we had!!! If you were an evangelist it was impossible to use the 8-5 because you needed to reach out. In my experience education period wasn't valued.
I was directly discouraged from attending graduate school by my HCL. He laughed at me and derided me for my aspirations. I then wrote him a letter about the whole situation which he disregarded. He was described as one of the best counselors in the church! Personally I have suffered quite a bit financially and personally from stopping at a bachelors. I am now in law school as a 40-something woman, and I completely regret wasting so much time. It's not that I regret my time at LFF -- I stayed because God was doing something special there -- unfortunately, I stayed WAY too long, ignoring what I now believe to be the Holy Spirit's promptings, seeing them instead as selfish desires. I essentially spent nearly 20 years of my life on the outside looking in, always thinking that at some point I would be acceptable to leadership and finally feel a part of things. I came to LFF as a very strong Christian and I came of my own free will, having heard of the church through other Christian friends where I lived before I came to Pullman to enroll at WSU. I shut my eyes to the things I knew were wrong, because there were so many things that were so good. I believe that God gives us giftings and aspirations because in pursuing those things, we can be all he wants us to be and be used of him -- and be happy in the process!! So anyone who is "dying to your desires" by completely squelching them ... I say reconsider what God's plan is for your life.
As far as the tithing thing goes, It is not true to say Vances are tithing 23 1/3 and then some. You are comparing apples to oranges. The Vances have a housing allowance, they had daycare covered and tuition waivers for PCS, they had many things in their lives covered by the church as part of their income. Are they tithing off those stipends?? I think not! SO their income may appear to be meager, or sub-standard, or even par, compared to other pastors, I don't know, but believe me their income was far more than it appeared. And the taxes, we were paying tithe off the gross...what did their taxes look like on their pastoral church paycheck?? So their gross and net may have looked very different than the pawns in the church...I mean sheep. So when you compare their 23 1/3 to the rest of the peons...I mean sheep...then consider your net income, deduct your mortgage, your daycare expenses, and your private school tuition, maybe even a car or two. I have NO idea what all the “church” provides for them. Now calculate your 23 1/3 and heck, be super spiritual and throw in an additional 5 percent or so! Go above and beyond! I'm sure Vances look quite stellar on paper. There was a members meeting where they once told us "everything" about their financial situation being O,H&T with us. Ha!!! A lie is what pkv and pv??? You've told us all so many times, it's not just telling something untrue, it's leaving out details that tell the whole story. Or does that just apply to the slaves...I mean sheep. There are tax benefits to be sure, but there also benefits of perks that happen outside the paycheck that are not subject to taxable income from the government or tithe-able income owed according to lff doctrine. We will never see those numbers. I believe the members at lff deserve to see them as they really are. It may be quite shocking to some. Not to me. I’ve seen enough sickness at lff to not be shocked by anything anymore.
About Vances shopping for deals; This is not always a financial need. There are many people who either lived through the depression or had parents who did, who will not let a crumb hit the floor, even though their incomes today are far into the triple digits. This doesn't have to be related to a national depression, but maybe a family one growing up. It can be a sickness at extremes, where the family's safety and well being is second to saving a buck. I'm not saying that this is Vances story, but I am saying that being a miser can have nothing or everything to do with your financial situation. It is not a given that someone who shops for the very best deal is being a good steward or doesn't have money. They may just be cheap. They may have psychological problems. They may be good stewards. They may be anything. I really think Vances were a little ridiculous when it came to their deals though. How many people reading this blog spent HOURS upon HOURS doing their legwork to find those deals for them? How many people reading this spent those hours searching and got sick of it so you decided to pool together gift money to get it for them? LFF life was such an oddity. Our time was of no consequence and value to them, and that was a major abuse at lff. If they paid us for our time and gas money and wear and tear on our vehicles in finding those deals for them, including returning the items that didn’t turn out to be good deals, traveling to the far ends of the earth to pick up those good deals for them wherever they might be…well, maybe they weren’t such good deals afterall. Except to Vances. My apologies for the run-on sentences to those English teachers out there. :)
"the pawns in the church..."
"compare(d)...to the rest of the peons"
"...that just apply to the slaves...I mean sheep.
W O W.
Spread some Christmas cheer, why don't you? You have some serious issues. And like you said, "(I) have NO idea what all the “church” provides for them."
I was trying to be funny! Cheers everyone. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!
...Oh, and if you want some Christmas cheer, this may not be the best site to visit. Just a thought. But Merry Christmas just the same! I visit this site much less than others. There are a lot of encouraging warm fuzzy happy sites out there to read that encourage, uplift and edify. This isn't one of them. Different thing going on here. Although I do believe it is helping people heal. It's at least a place where MOST people understand our past and our pain. There's a lot to be said for that. MERRY CHRISTMAS!
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