Misc. Musings -
As the Administrator points out - the previous and current leadership are following the same suit - no change, no responsibility. My theory on the whole thing is that they CAN'T change. What I mean is that to admit their fault or responsibility in any of these tragic stories, will mean that they are indeed guilty and their pride just could not handle the possibility they are guilty in all or even one.
No, what they would do is review every case, research it, find the details, investigate, interview, interpret and then look into the past of the "complainer" and find it was all a result of all of us "not taking responsibility for our own choices" or the "struggles we were having with sin" or "we were volitional" thus their responsibility is absolved...or another out is just shift the blame - it was their parent's fault, the sister's fault, etc. Therefore, no need to take responsibility - it wasn't their fault and even if they did do something that hurt someone - it was because we interpreted it wrongly, therefore absolving their guilt once again - it was us. They absolutely believe that system to the core and that's why they are clinging to it desperately. I don't ever expect a change, sadly.
In order to continue on, they simply can not face the reality or it would destroy the whole premise on which their fragile world is built. It's the age-old LFF cycle - any questions, any pain, any hurt means that there is something wrong with all of us and we should repent for feeling those things and then take responsibility that we chose to stay and be wounded.
It's a whole veil of deception that I believe they must continue to cling to in order to feel confident in what they are continuing to do. In fact, I would venture to guess that because of the length and strength of this belief on their part, that they don't really know what reality is anymore. What they believe to be true is the only reality they know. Therefore, our healing can not depend on their response, change, compassion, etc. We have to find it outside of that structure entirely - in God, in the Word and in each other.
So, in moving forward, I read a research report this week about how writing about traumatic situations and events helps the person move on and is being used by many doctors to help people heal from events ranging from war to abuse to events like we have gone through. In fact there is a summary of that topic in Jan 2006 Better Homes Magazine too. In the book, Purpose Driven Life, Rick Warren suggests that you write a letter you will never send. Spell out all the details, all the names, the pain, the feelings, etc. and then destroy it. That helped me tremendously - even if my thoughts or feelings didn't seem rational, I put them down and listed specifics - mind you it was a very long letter, but it was good for me! This blog site is a therapeutic tool for many. As you begin to formulate your thoughts and experiences in words, it helps you sort them out and move on from them. It takes part of the power of those memories away in a sense. It doesn't erase the things that happen or the emotions tied to those events, but it will help you begin to make sense of what you've been through and help you to put them to rest.
Thank you for your help and for the blogspot. May we all find the healing we're looking for. Bless you!
Tuesday, June 27, 2006
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34 comments:
Our family left LFF over a year ago. The whole process has been interesting to say the least. I've been reading this blog since September, but have never posted because I haven't felt like I really know how to put what happened to me, and how I feel about it into adequate words. In reading this blog I've experienced a range of emotions, but a lot of the time I just feel numb. It's so unbelievable that it all happened. Even though I personally experienced it all it's like it wasn't real- it couldn't be. And it's left me in a strange place. We go to a church, but it isn't our church home, and we may be trying to find another one. Will we ever be able to be part of a church body again? I find myself pulling back whenever something starts to feel like LFF. Which I know isn't "right" because good, real churches will have similarities to LFF. But the reaction is still there and I honestly don't know when it will go away, or if it ever will. The Misc. Musings of this original post touched me like nothing else on this blog has. We still live in Pullman and near many current members- the ones at the heart of the establishment, and seeing them and having them talk to us like everything is fine and great is difficult. They aren't going to change, but I find myself desperately wanting them to. How can they continue this farse? Absolute denial? I honestly don't think they even know they are in denial. Everything that has happened, is in their minds, our fault. Well it's not my fault! I am going to write a letter that I never send. I think it will help me get it all out without worrying if I'm saying it the right way or really expressing how I'm feeling. I think I can start to heal now. I'm so thankful for this blog, and I'm thankful that it's continuing. I'm sure that in the current leaderships' minds this blog would dwindle and fade if they could just ride out the storm like they rode out the cult accusations from- has it really been over 10 years ago?! I sincerely hope that people can continue to find healing here. I wasn't sure this blog would help me find healing. It's taken months, but the healing process is finally beginning.
"Therefore, our healing can not depend on their response, change, compassion, etc. We have to find it outside of that structure entirely - in God, in the Word and in each other."
so true...they can't control us anymore! healing really is possible
to the person making the comment on 7/1:
you said you find yourself pulling back when something starts to feel like LFF - that may be good. I've been gone for a long time, and I still do that also, but I see it as a safety mechanism. I never want to be trapped in a cult again. Yes, you can really be a part of a church body again - we have - and I hope for your sake that you are always discerning - you will be an asset in a church that truly exists to please God. Just think how LFF would have been different if the original leadership couples had not taught and encouraged us all to fawn all over the Bardens. Think how the Barden's lives would have been different also - they could have been real people instead of phonies trying to keep up appearances.
I appreciate this blog so much. It has accelerated my healing, and I pray many lives are touched through the sharing here.
Well said! I have been going to a "new age" church (as I mention often) and it was great and welcoming until we had a confrontation. They talk about being open and understanding and welcoming, but when they needed to talk about one of my children, it was just like being called into a HCL, or even CCL meeting.
One of my children really enjoyed the youth group because they made them feel really accepted. The kid did something stupid and as a result was kicked out of the group for a month and given 20 hours of community service and had to write an essay. I felt that the punishment (which is what it was) was too harsh for the "crime". The pastor who I met with, basically tried to put the same guilt on me. She made me feel like I was a useless person and a terrible parent. The kid is old enough to know right from wrong, so I felt like this was out of line. I told her so in the meeting and it was empowering to me to tell her I didn't agree with her and that she was out of line. But in the end I still felt like I had been whipped and guilted into agreeing with them. It was amazing how much this felt like a chance for this pastor to feel better and me to feel bad. It turns out that she is a single parent and her son still does what my child got caught doing. (just a little hypocracy there.)
So, you might guess that I was already feeling strained relationships with the church. Next they started a building campagn! At least they didn't guilt us into bying bonds when we had so little money to feed and clothe our own families. But still it was interesting to see the emphasis change at church from acceptance, to "have you pledged yet?"
So, needless to say, I understand why we all have such committment phobia when it comes to church. I have been trying to figure out how we could have all been hoodwinked. Then I remember the analogy they use in evangelism. Remember the frog in the water? You don't throw them into boiling water, you put them in cold water and slowly bring the heat up. Before you know it they are boiled alive. That sums up how I feel about LFF, and any religion that tries to tell me "you must believe in this manner". Remember, I am not saying that my truth is the same for everyone. I bless you all where ever God has led you. I know that God will lead you into Truth! In the mean time the healing goes on, and some of us feel like we are homeless (spiritually).
May your path bring you closer to knowing the God who is really there and loves you unconditionally! Peace and love to you all, John Brower
I'm reading the book "Boundaries, When to say yes, when to say no, to take control of your life" by Cloud and Townsend. I'm just getting into it but my sense is that it will be very helpful. Has anyone else read the book?
G.N.S.
GNS, I took your suggestion and started reading it too. I really identified with the first chapter- a day without boundaries. I skipped to the end and read - a day with boundaries. It is great to compare the two. It helped me to realize that I have spent much time without boundaries. I let everything happen to me and just bear my burden. I don't have to live that way. It is not Christian to let everyone walk all over you. We are supposed to carry our own responsibilities and help our brothers and sisters to carry their heavy loads. We don't have to be responsible for the things that they are supposed to do, but like the pain many experienced at LFF, we can help them carry that weight and bring some healing.
The book looks good so far, I am only a couple of chapters into it.
JB
I read _Boundaries_ a few years ago, while I was out of the country but still hadn't left LFF. It helped me realize some of the unhealthy ways I had been trained to behave at LFF.
Pastor Sherri used to shudder when anyone mentioned the Minirth-Meier clinic. (Cloud and Townsend are connected somehow to it, I forget how, and Meier has endorsed their books.) She said Minirth and Meier encouraged Christians to pay too much attention to themselves.
Hmmm... sheep with boundaries ... too difficult to get under their skin and control them?
I also liked _Changes that Heal_ by Henry Cloud.
Wow Troy,
The people here should be stoned? That sure sounds like the "life-changing" power of Jesus as taught by LFF. Yeah, right...
Murdering with our tongue? And you call for the stoning of the people on the blog? Hmm, that would be murdering in any sane person's book. Even figuratively, it’s not a nice thing.
Well just FYI, I posted my name on this blog many months before you decided to show up and call people winers (instead of whiners).
Barden’s God-filled word? Can’t it just be the Word of God? Why does Barden anybody have to say it?
This is not my blog, but God loves the people that run it just as much as the super 'boldened' (I guess that's something like emboldened) Christians of LFF, but of course that fact escapes you.
And the name is Bailey... Daniel Bailey 007, MAJ, US Army Medical Service Corps, currently on active duty at the National Military Command Center at the Pentagon. I see a lot of stuff that involves whackos calling for the stoning of others, and it certainly hasn't made the world a better place.
"Better to be silent and let the world think you're a fool, rather than open your mouth and remove all doubt..."
Troy, thank you for coming and spending the time with us. We are glad that you found the blog. We honor where you are at, and admit that many of us would have said a loud AMEN! to your reply. I started reading the blog back in September and had a simular response to the blog. I didn't fill the blog with the same post or simular post trying to start a fight with the people who have had the courage to share their story here. I sent an email to the people who run the blog and talked with them. I continued to read the blog and asked the Spirit to direct me in what is right or wrong on the blog. The people who have been hurt by LFF are not imagining what they went through. I don't know if you are at a place where you can give them the grace to work out their own salvation (whatever form that comes in), but please refrain from throwning stones (figuratively or in reality). Your arguement is not helping your cause. It only makes people mad (which might be your goal). In fact it occurs to me that maybe that is your goal. Now that the blog is active again, I am sure that some people would like to see it devolve into back biting and in-fighting.
I hope that all of you will not rise to the bait.
Peace to all! (even Troy)
DPR! editor
Talk about shooting the wounded! Troy, have you not ever read in the new testament where it says "you shall not accept an accusation against an elder"? Hold on, read a little further "except there be two or three witnessess"? Check out 1 Tim 5:19 & 20. Vs. 20 by the way says that "those (elders) that sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning."
I think this blog site qualifies on both counts. I know enough of the people involved and they are not flakes. They are genuine people with real hurts and something valid to say. When i was at LFF I know the leadership clearly played favorites so maybe you haven't been blindsided like we have. Give it some time.
I'm glad you shared. Not because i agree with you. But I do believe you are sincere. I though as you once did, and it took an act of God to open my eyes.
Hey, everyone else. Take a moment and pray for Troy. Really, when he figures it all out he is going to have quite a shock. We all walked in his shoes at one time.
Geo. N. Sally
Troy please don't make assumptions about us. You don't know us or what we have gone through. Many of us have earnestly tried to find God and thought that we had found the right way to know God. We found a great church that was on fire for God and teaching that made us feel secure in our salvation. The problem is that security changed when the teachings of Dr. Barden took presidence over Orthodox Christianity (as determined by centuries of Church history). Not only that, but people were made to feel inferior for the sake of making others (with low self esteem) feel better about theirselves. The role of pastors is to love and comfort their sheep. That is not what many of us here felt. We were ridiculed for thinking differently than Dr. Barden. We were taught to fear our pastor because he could bring "discipline" against us if we crossed him. These are not imagined wrongs.
The Truth will win in the end. I am sorry that you don't like what we have to say here. That doesn't change the fact that it is real. Also, even if there is only one voice saying the truth, it doesn't matter how many people speak against it. The truth is still the truth. I do not agree with your interpretation of the numbers needed to bring an accusation against an elder, but alas, I feel that there likely other areas that we don't agree on either. That is what tolerance is about. I give you the grace to be where you are and hope you offer us the same.
Peace, DPR (editor)
Dear Boycott,
I wish you had taken the time to check the spelling and grammar of your posts.
One sentence I particulary enjoyed was "It sound like Pastor Barden sized you up as Lucky to be in his presents."
Just a hint from an unusually picky "winer"
wining is good... Chardonnay, Cabernet, Merlot...
I'm about 1/2 way through the book "Boundaries" and it has been an eye opener. One point that it makes is our need to forgive. I had to face this - to forgive LFF (fill in the blank with whatever name you wish). Because God forgave my sins I can forgive others - the bottom line. The book explains that reconcilation is another matter entirely. Just because I forgive someone does not mean that I am reconciled to them. Take for instance the situation of an abusive relationship between parent and child. The abused child can forgive the parent but should not, must not, submit to the parent's abuse. Better to escape the situation. Lack of repentance on the part of the parent prevents reconcilation. Forgiveness takes one but reconcilation takes two. My comments here are very limited so I recommend the book for more detail.
The book goes into a lot more than just this idea of forgiveness and reconcilation. I'm still working on absorbing the ideas and concepts. It has a lot of good ideas about saying no to manipulative controlling individuals in the church! (and in the world in general). Furthermore it gives the scriptural basis for doing so. It talks about how letting someone else control you is your problem and not the controlling person's problem (this is called owing the problem). I am impressed by the work as a whole and continue to recommend it.
I hope some of you will check the book out. You can probably get a copy at the local library or a used copy at amazon.com.
JB, do you have any more comments on "Boundaries". I would love to hear your throughs.
Does anyone have any comments on forgiveness? Would love to hear from you also.
Just another thought the Lord has been impressing upon me. Love. 1 John makes it clear just how important love is. We cannot hate our brother and love God at the same time. I don't hate LFF or anyone there. I still don't agree with their practices or doctrines, but I don't hate them. I feel sadness for all the hurt they caused me and others. There were a lot of really great people there who encouraged me and spoke God's word to me. Some really painful things happend there also. I'm glad I left. Was I a perfect example of victorious christian living while there? No. I take comfort in 1 John where he writes that anyone who thinks he is without sin is a liar but if we confess our sins there is forgiveness and fellowship with God. We can assure our hearts if our hearts condemn us because of our love for the brethern. That is how we know we have passed out of death and into life. I've found this to be really releasing.
I often wonder about the sincerity of some individuals in leadership at LFF. Really, I don't think that any of us can know. It is God that looks at the heart. We need to at some point leave it in God's hands because it is not our place to be the judge. We still need to exercise discernment and make our choices regarding who we associate with. These are tough issues. The Bible clearly teaches us to respect leadership but at the same time Paul says in one place "if I or an angel of heaven preach another gospel than what you reicieved let him be cursed" Paul did not consider himself immune from falling into error! What I take away from this is twofold 1) good doctrine is important 2) it is the individual believers responsibility to reject false teachings and false teachers. So I conclude the Bible teaches balance and personal responsibility.
Most of us have jobs with insurance. I've done this in the past and am planning to in the near future to get some professional christian counseling. One good source is focus on the family. 791-531-3400 They have a good screening procedure before they recommend a counselor. Check with your insurance company to see what is and is not covered under your policy. Another good resource is Capstone Counseling in the Seattle area 800-433-8373. I've been to them before and found them quite helpful.
My comments here are inadequate to express what I want to. I can only trust the Holy Spirit will spark some useful idea in your heart and mind.
Let's not forget to have a little grace with each other in the mean time.
Troy,
I have rarely participated in this blog although I relate intensely with many things that happened to me at LFF.
I knew you as someone who did have “boundaries” and was willing to say “no” just as you stated. I now admire that in you. But I didn’t admire that at the time I had everyday contact with you because I was a JCD Intern and I sat in meetings where you were criticized as “Independent, proud, and someone who could not be helped because you were too stubborn”. You were not shamed to your face but I know for a fact you were behind your back. If you were never pushed or shamed it is likely that your HCL’s decided not to push you despite advice from above. I know of numerous HCL’s and CCL’s who protected their sheep in that way many times.
These uncomplimentary comments came from people who were “reaching out” to you and from the current senior pastor. Whether or not you think those words fit you is not the point. The point is that behind people’s backs, the leadership often criticized sheep in front of other sheep. I witnessed it in HCL meetings, in Intern meetings, in group settings. This deeply hurt people. People biblically went back to the leadership as taught and it was thrown back in their face. I personally witnessed this. I also know that you never got in far enough to experience what many of these people have shared. I didn’t know much of what went on until I was much deeper into it.
I, too, was mortified over Matt’s slander of LFF. I couldn’t understand how anyone could go off the deep end like that. I believe his racism and murder is very serious before God.
But I have witnessed things at LFF that are just as wrong. I know several instances of children who were abused in the EVERY way and the perpetrators were left on the platform. I was encouraged to do things to my child that I believed to be neglectful. I personally witnessed numerous lies that the pastors told about people who had left. I knew the truth because I had been in the room when the events happened. I have seen women in leadership so abused (constantly criticized on their performance) that their health was destroyed. I have seen people shamed in group settings.
I have personally witnessed so many double standards it would make your head spin. I witnessed two of the Barden daughters act hatefully to each other (still do) but scold everyone else about working out aught. The “OH & T” policy applied to the underlings but NOT the highest in leadership. I have seen Kari Vance get furious about college students who lie, yet I caught her in numerous lies before I left. I have seen spouses pitted against each other, or seen times when one spouse was constantly criticized to the other spouse if the leadership didn’t like them. This behavior is totally against the bible verse that says “Let no man put asunder what God has joined together.”
I personally witnessed a friend who was serving over 40 hours a week criticized to their face about how much more they should be doing. I also experienced that. My spouse and I were criticized regularly (while we were doing over 40 hours a week of church related activity) that “we just weren’t pressing in enough”, or “you aren’t keeping up with your home activities enough”, etc, but we weren’t allowed to drop any of our activities. And we were up there in leadership. I also experienced and watched as the senior pastor made leacherous comments to various women in the church.
LFF has lost around of 80% of the leadership (HCL’s, CCL’s, and long term lay pastors) that it had less than 5 years ago. The biggest reason I found, in having the guts to ask those leaving the “why” questions, was the abuses they and their sheep experienced. Every leader that I have individually spoken to had realized these things were wrong before God, and had talked to the senior leadership about the issues and got nowhere. Some stayed to continue trying to make a differnce but most left because they couldn’t with integrity support what was wrong and continues to be wrong.
The Vances have made numerous outward changes. But according to their own repentance teaching, this is not the mark of true repentance. I know without a shadow of a doubt that they have devoured the sheep as false shepherds and I believe that if Jesus went to LFF he would scold them as he did the Pharisees, the “religious” leaders of the day. The Pharisees treated the people with contempt and Jesus had no problem shaming them for their legalistic abusive treatment of the sheep. It’s not for me to say if that was “their heart” or not, but Jesus condemned their behavior, not their heart.
Please don’t judge so harshly these people who have been through what I mention and more. You truly don’t know the nasty things that have happened there.
Finally, I choose not to mention my name because of the things I went through there. At one point I was afraid for my life, literally. But if you knew who this was, I know you would have a lot of questions for me, we had a respectful relationship.
Well said. I hope Troy is still reading and was able to see this bloggers comments. I think this is the hardest thing to convey to people who support lff, like Troy, who saw no negatives in their time there. Those who chose not to get involved in leadership, and chose to be independent thinkers, may very well have thought that life was great there. You have NO idea what terrible things were said about you behind your backs in the name of LFF Ministry TRAINING...things were exposed constantly about individual sheep’s sins and "rebelliousness" in the name of ministry training. HCL's would get together with CCL's and Pastors and discuss individual sheep and their sins and how to best "help" them. Troy, you were talked about not only with the JCD Interns and PV, but also with HCL's and CCL's in groups where you were labeled as too independent to be groomed for leadership. Count your blessings! You have no idea what life was like on the other side. If you think they were your friends, you are greatly mistaken. Being someone who was at a CCL level, I witnessed many individuals, couples, families, being criticized for their "pulling back" from ministry in order to spend more time with their families, or new babies. The pastors would make comments about "when are they going to get their eyes off of themselves and get back into ministry." The priorities of God first, family second, and ministry third were way out of line at lff. I too was asked to give 40 hours per week to ministry and was constantly told I wasn’t doing enough and that I was on the edge of being "kicked out" of ministry because of not pressing in enough or not serving enough. I loved ministry and I wanted to give back what I was given at lff so I continued for many years. It took having kids of my own and being heart broken over all the time away from my children that I realized my life was upside down in priorities and I got out. It wasn’t being selfish to spend time with my kids and spend time ministering to my husband. It was being responsible before God for my family and the life of my kids. It’s not up to daycare and nursery and Sunday School to teach and train my kids. It’s my job to raise my kids! LFF is out of line with God's Word and God's priorities. I don't know how to explain so that someone like Troy understands. Everyone wants specifics, you think we are just whiners with no real stories. I don't know how you think that, but here's another story. At a time when we were ccl's my husband and I wrote on one our reports that an hcl husband had a sincere and real repentance about sin in his life that week. We purposefully didn't say what the sin was about to protect that hcl’s privacy. We knew these reports were copied for every pastor to see in regular Saturday meetings while the rest of us were working on crew. We didn’t feel it was necessary to expose the hcl. The pcl’s sent back our report and said we must be specific about what the sin was. The sin in this case was the big ‘M’ word. We left it out a second time and hoped they wouldn’t notice. They didn’t, and our hcl was protected. (An aside; for anyone who has ever been kicked out of member’s meetings for the M word…it was selective. This hcl wasn’t kicked out. They didn’t kick out their friends. ) Back to the story, I was horrified that these specific sins of everyone in the congregation were being shared in a room full of pastors (Bardens, Vances, Fisters, Weavers, Kellys, Febus, Joe Fitz, Beckers, Kobelins, whoever else had the title at various times) they ALL saw ALL of the sheep’s sins in black and white at those meetings. If you confessed it to your hcl, it was in print, and copied, and read, and discussed by many people. Unless you had a nice person (willing to buck the system a little) at some level in oversight that didn’t print specifics about you. This was all in the name of ministry training. I could tell you so many stories. I guess I should clarify that Joe F (when he was single) did not see the specific sins of any single female sheep in the congregation so they used a black sharpie to color over those write-ups for his copy. Whatever. I think the previous blogger did a much better job than I did in expressing themselves. But I had to put in my two cents worth. I am glad Troy, that you weren’t hurt by lff, but these stories on the blog are true and although I wasn’t in the JCD Intern meetings that the previous blogger mentioned where you were spoken badly of, I was in many, many meetings where people who were serving their hearts out were spoken badly of for not giving enough. I believe that story is true and that those things were said about you. It was a regular discussion about those who chose to be different at lff. It was a sick rat race we were trying to run. Trying to please the Barden clan is an impossible task. Many have tried. All have failed. To be close to Vances is to be chastised, rebuked, chastened…and consider it a privilege, or else! In the name of ministry, with much supporting scripture. Please read Twisted Scriptures!! It’s what lff is all about. If you think I am bitter about lff, I guess I am. I forgive them over and over and over again. It’s not a one time thing for me. But I know God wants me to forgive. To forgive an abuser is godly, to walk back to the abuser and allow them to continue having control over your life is foolish. To not say anything while others fall prey to the wolves is wrong. I too won’t print my name for fear of what Vances can do. I don’t fear physical consequences, I fear the talk that I know takes place, and the slander of my name in order to protect and defend themselves. They are so good at PR, so very polished, so very smooth. They are the best at what they do. I have to give them credit for putting on a good face and being the best liars on the planet. Do you need more specifics here? I could supply them, although it gets a bit more tricky because it’s things they said in small groups that they lied about in big groups, and they can figure out who I am if I share those things. But I do have specifics. And they do lie, regularly. It’s all about looking good. I will say also that I did take my concerns to them and was beaten up with words. They are their own best supporters. If 80 percent of leadership leaving is not a testament of their hardness of heart and refusal to listen then I guess you can call Bardens and/or Vances your friends and spiritual leaders. Be careful. I really do care about those who are still at lff, and especially the new young leadership they are grooming. Many blessings to those who have left, and those who are still there. Only God knows the whole story, and knows the beginning and the end. We all shall see one day. I still love God, I still serve God, and I forgive. I don’t want others to be hurt, so that’s why I write these things.
Now you know why we couldn't let the blog die. Thank you for sharing your experiences. It is interesting that even though Troy wanted to ridicule us, he has actually made us speak more clearly about our experiences. As you can see from the above posts, it is not just the lay people who experienced this. You can't be much closer than CCL.
To know to do right and not do it is sin. Therefore, keep blogging. Hopefully we can help others through the pain and confusion.
DPR!!!
Is the big 'M' masterbating? I recall a girl in my home care group that was kicked out of JCDs for repeatedly admitting she would masterbate. I never quite knew how they knew what she did in the privacy of her own room. But perhaps it was written in her journal, perhaps she confessed or maybe her roomates could hear her going to O town and tattled. I think it is so unfortunate that people are discouraged and shamed for learning about their own bodies and sexual desires. Whether you believe it is a sin or not, it is a private personal thing not to be shared and bandied about amongst the leadership. That really pisses me off that they would talk about it. It really is kind of sick. Plus if you are to take the words literally from the bible about spilling seed - women's bodies do that naturally on a monthly basis without the big 'M' being involved...
Thanks to all for sharing their stories. It has really helped me to come to terms with my experiences at LFF. While I can no longer claim to be a christian, I can say that LFF has helped me spiritually to find my own path that is unique to me and is good.
I was at LLF for a short time and went through the GG class. At one point in the training, we had to meet with Pastor Kevin. He kept prodding me to admit the sins I was struggling with. It disturbs me to think that maybe these were written down in my file. Learning from you guys that they kept files on us was especially disturbing. Also, I find it sad that Joe F. got caught up in the system. I knew him when we were both in college and before he was CCF pastor and considered him a friend.
Yep, correct about what 'M' refers to. And to the previous blogger who said how did they know...they knew because whoever did it confessed that they did it to their oversight. They knew because we were all "Open, Honest, and Transparent." We were taught that we weren't experiencing true repentence unless we confessed EVERYTHING to our oversight. So...they knew everything. And unfortunately, everything was written down. Not part of God's forgiveness at all, but part of lff's system.
I don't klnow for sure that you were talking about me but I was kicked out of JCD's for the big M. Looking back now it wasn't even that!! I was so messed up. I was just getting aroused but not doing anyting but they messed me up so bad that I was very confused. Christians really have a messed up view of sex for singles. It is really hard for women because we aren't supposed to have sexual desire. But that is a bunch of bs!!!! Especially women in their late 20's and 30's!! IT gets pretty intense. But nobody understood. because most of our HCL's got married when they were 10. Or some of the single Hcl's got married when they were 15. THey have no idea. By the time they were in their late 20's they had 6 kids and were tired. It's like it is this horrible thing and then all of a sudden it's upposed to be beautiful. How crazy!!!!!!! It has messed me up.
I had no idea they all married that young...are you sure about that? I could never quite understand why God made us with all of our physical and mental desires and sexuality only to then tell us to deny them. I think something got lost in the translation. I say every man needs a bottle of lotion and some tissue and every woman a drawer full of toys with a lifetime supply of batteries whether single or married.
You guys are retarded. Married at 10 or 15?!? What do you think this is: a Mormon convent?
Get real - these are just people who are doing their best to keep horny 20-somethings from rubbing themselves stupid.
I don't think the person above seriously thought the HCL's got married at 10 or 15. I think he was exagerating, but wasn't P. Kari about 18 or 19?
I was married at 23 and I feel like it was too young. I do think the reason so many of us got married so young is the whole idea that masturbation is sex, and as a result we were supposed to abstain. I know that I was really horny and that helped to push me into marriage, since that was the only acceptable way to handle the raging hormones. Yes, I was in love too, but the added pressure made us want to get married asap!
Heck yeah!
Of course I didn't think they got married that young. . It's just when you are 29 and dealing with sexual feelings a person who got married in their early 20's cannot relate to you. Even for women the feeling are still there. It was the fact that they couldn't relate. Byt the time they were my age they were sex was more work thean exciting because they were running a household. I suspect that you were married young and you were in LFF leadership. Your whole tone was VERY judgemental. That is why I left in first place. Yuck. But I stand by my statement that they don't understand and I ddon't give a f### what you think.
I was someone who got married at LFF later in my 20's. I can relate to a lot of what was said by these gals but with a different outcome.
Prior to coming to LFF, I was very addicted to M (easier to abbreviate). I had an extremely low self esteem because of it and was guilt ridden. Being able to talk about it did help me but the biggest thing that helped me break the addiction to it was really experiencing God's love. That was something God did, NOT LFF! Later I began to realize that so many of my friends had been involved with M also and I began to realize that, like most behaviors, there were reasons why we get addicted, usually not just hormones.
However, having said that, I still had very strong sex drive for a long time after giving up M. I used to pray and tell God exactly how I was feeling (no matter how embarassing) because he created me to want sex and he could handle the truth and my desires.
I hope this doesn't sound like I am psychoanalyzing - I hate that myself. What I really hope is that what I share will enlighten those who would condemn. I know many people in out and of LFF who struggle with M.
I truly believe there are many deeply painful reasons people can't let go of M. If healing doesn't happen to those areas of the soul, then the struggle forever continues. It's like giving a pain killer for a headache when the cause of the headache is a neck out of alignment. The headaches will reoccur until the neck alignment is dealt with.
Let me give some examples:
1. People who were molested at an early age are often awakened to masturbation and sex without their consent. This is damaging long term. I personally know people who got involved with M when they should have been too young to be aware of anything sexual. It was a result of molestation. This is often the reason young girls become overly promiscuous, too, although it's not the sole reason. I know one girl who lost her virginity shortly after a relative molested her. It's very sad because she readily admits what she was really looking for was not sex but love and comfort.
2. M can be an incredible escape from the trauma of painful events. I have seen people who got in "trouble" at LFF and would consistently M after the confrontations they got. I began to realize that M is a pleasurable feeling they could control when the deep pain and hurts were too strong.
3. Deep rooted insecurities can cause a person to rely heavily on M. It is a way to feel good about yourself momentarily when you are abusing yourself mentally. It's a short term pain killer.
4. Most experts agree that sex is a stress release. Don't condemn someone who just went through a stress or trauma of some sort for looking for pleasure somewhere in life.
These are just some of the reasons I have seen some people struggle so deeply with m. I am not ruling out the hormones, or negating the strong desire for sex that so many of us have experienced. But I have found that M can be a symptom for deeper issues so don't condemn those who struggle with it.
Are these reasons ok with God? Previously, I took the verses on fornication in the Bible to mean M, too, although it is not specified. But I also observe that pretty much everyone that I know struggles with sexual issues in one way or another. If you condemn someone else, you are condemning yourself, too. What goes around comes around so to speak.
I do acknowledge that individuals can become sex addict and obsessed with self stimulation but I truly don't believe that there is anything wrong with masturbating - it is even okay to use the word. People are curious, people have sexual desires, people seek comfort, people seek release. There is nothing wrong with these things. I agree that sexual abuse can lead to promiscuity but so can repression and denail of your urges. But unless all you do is spend your time masturbaring or thinking about masturbating to the neglect of all other aspects in your life - well, you are just a normal human being.
I would say it is much better to be told that sex and sexual desire are natural but best in a committed relationship, then to be told it was bad and must be saved for marriage instead of being told over and over again that it's bad-but then seeing in the world that it is normal and ont a bog deal. That does lead to doing a lot of stupid stuff. But I do know it is better when the people love each other. Masterbation is not bad.
Well, if you wait long enough, then the problem just goes away! I've now gone through menopause (no longer any sexual desire, yahoo!) having never married or having children. This is one of the biggest regrets I have for staying at LFF as long as I did. As a result, I am childless and alone, and my parents who are now elderly and ill will never experience knowing my husband or enjoying grandchildren from me. This is too painful for me to even contemplate, so I just generally don't think about it. But the whole "approving" people to marry each other I think is one reason I am still single. I was just never "in" enough despite having devoted close to 16 years of my life (the majority of my 20's & 30's). I always envied the LFF marriages that seemed so happy.
I can only think of a few LFF marriages that truly seemed happy.
I am very disturbed to read what Troy has been posting. Troy, while I appreciate that you feel welcome to comment, I would urge you to consider what you are doing to those who have been hurt.
It is not your right or place to judge other people's hurts. You are not them and therefore cannot possibly know waht they went through.
I too attended LFF, infact I was born and raised at LFF. I have suffered much hurt at the hands of LFF, but honestly, who hasnt. Even you, I am sure, if you are honest with yourself suffered some hurt there. How do I know this? Because we are human. And no matter where you go, or who you are, you will always experience hurt from the people around you. You seem to have dealt well with anything that may have happened. Or possibly did not deal with it at all. Perhaps you just stuffed it and have not dealt with it yet. That is fine too.
Honestly, I dont really care where your at. What I do care about is the people on this blog that you are further hurting. I personally have moved on and found much healing. But I know what it is like to feel completely battered and bruised by the church, be it LFF or any other church. The people on this blog are here to find healing and closure. They are not whining and you are not helping.
If the "Barden's God filled word" was truely as God-filled as you say ... then should you not be stooping to help lift the broken hearted, healing the wounds that may or may not be based in LFF?
Honestly, to me it sounds like you Idolize the Bardens a bit too much. You should perhaps read the holy word of GOD and stop relying on the Bardens Bible. Is it not after all called God's Word? I am pretty sure that the John 1:1 does not say "in the beginning there was the bardens god filled word and the bardens god filled word was with God and the bardens god filled word was God ..."
In fact I would recommend that you start with Mark 12:30-31, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your strength. And the second is this, You shall LOVE your NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. There is NO commandment GREATER than these."
First of all I would like to comment that it says love the "lord your god" with all your heart, not the barden's god filled word. Secondly, and I have no idea how the church today can so arrogently skip over this verse, it says you must LOVE your neighbor as yourself. Telling people they should be stoned is not loving them. As I recall it was the Pharasees that wanted to stone the woman that was hurting and in sin. It was Jesus (loving his neighbor) that bent down to her level, lifted her up and led her back to relationship with God.
Next time you want to stone people, please consider that Jesus would not stone them, but love them. Perhaps you too can find it in your heart to love someone other than yourself even if just long enough to lift them out of the mud and give them a second chance.
And for the record, these people are not spinless whimps for not posting their names, they are just at a different stage then you.
Thank you for your time,
Robi Baldridge
Troy,
Thank you for your reply. I would like to start my reply to you by stating that I never said Jesus loves everything. Quite naturally He hates our sin and our rebellion towards Him. What I did say was that He does love PEOPLE. I have never seen anywhere in the bible where Jesus hated people.
I do see where you are coming from with your point of overbalancing love, however. I have seen it all too often and I agree, there needs to be an equal balance of love and justice. I must not have clearly stated that. My apologies.
Nor did I attack the Bardens. I have never been in their position. I dont have any idea what it is like to go through what they have been through. And as such, I refuse to judge them. It is not my place to judge them. Nor is it my place or anyone else's place--yours included--to judge the people on this blog. This was my point.
It is not my place, your place or anyone else's place to call these people whiners and hypocondriacs. My reply to your post had nothing to do with what I have or have not been through. It was simply an effort to bring about a different view point and stand up for the people that you so rudly bashed without any thought for what they may have been through.
And please dont bring my life into this. If I wanted to post about my life I would, but quite obviously I havent. If you really want the answer to your closing question, which I doubt you do, email me at robi_1303@hotmail.com. But I sincerely doubt I will receive an email from you as you seem more concerned with casting stones and critisicing then you actually do with helping people. So, with that, I bid you farewell.
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