What happened to Love? (email)
As I have read bits and pieces of the blog and consider it's purpose - to bring healing through understanding and support. To let you all know that it wasn't just you, you're not crazy or ungodly for the things you feel, I am left with so many questions, regrets and emotions that quite honestly I wonder if I will ever be rid of them. It makes me sad. In many ways I feel ripped off.
After recounting the many pains, experiences and situations of our years at LFF, we are assured regularly through those still there who know us that things are changing - they're different - they've learned. I question - "how could they have learned? they do not listen", "how can they be different - they still do not love or care or show compassion, they still look for the fault, not the good, the pure, the lovely." What exactly has changed? Aside from a few externals, I am not certain. And honestly, I don't care. I won't listen to the pleas, the criticisms, the explanations any more. Don't bother me with more words.
Case in point:
I recently had someone close in a very serious life or death situation in the hospital - too young to die. What do you suppose trickles down from LFF and some of it's current leadership but judgment? It's because of their upbringing and that of the family that they are in the hospital and in this situation. There's an explanation as to it's demonic origin and the wrong ways they lived and thus, voila! - tragedy. No concern, no care, no prayer, just an explanation. Do I care? What happened to love? What happened to God's power to do a miracle - which He did, by the way!
This happens all the time in so many areas. How many people will it take to recall the times that all that was looked for in them was the "wrong, the bad, the errors" - Our oldest child was having one of those sessions last night - recalling memories from PCS. What happened to looking for the good, pure, lovely?
How many accusations about participating in this blog, questioning everything from our relationship with God to our very salvation will be handed along? What happened to grace and love and compassion? What happened to humility?
How many "concerns" for our spirituality will be passed on as Christ-like with no more than a condescending voice and look - saying they are more spiritual than us? What happened to meekness and understanding?
How many times will we hear "we have left the Holy Spirit" because we do not practice exactly as you say we should? What happened to God? Where does He fit in to all of this?
Of course we are all not perfect in our faith or walk, but the honesty and truth that many here have expressed in the REALITY of where they are at I believe is exactly what God is looking for. REALITY has it's own sense of peace. No more pretending, no more shows, no more hypocrisy, no more crap. Just me - exactly where I am - in front of God - who is the ONLY ONE who can make me something different from here! It feels good, I recommend it. REALITY that is.
28 comments:
I have had enough of this blog. All of you who write or submit are just angry because things didnt go your way, or someone was chosen over you. Of course they told us not to read it. I am a rebel and am reading anyways, but all I see is bitter people. My home leaders and Pastor Kari are right. All of the submissions to this blog are born out of bitterness and lack of responsibilty for all of your own choices. So you weren't chosen by Pastor Kari to be in her inner circle. You should grow and maybe she will see some value in you. She picks people she sees potential in. Those who want to really grow in God. She doesnt waste her time on angry people like you. Of course you are disappointed.
The Vances care so much about the LFF people. I dont see how you dont see that. Wake up already.
To the commenter 11/24 8:39 PM: Thank you for taking the time to comment and share your feelings about this blog. I remember being taught at LFF in "MIRROR" classes that all emotions are valid, but we need to be careful how we express them. Also, that our emotions give us clues to our sources of "life". You seem to be angry with those who have been hurt or dissappointed and have chosen to express that hurt here in this anonymous format. Why is that? Do we threaten your security in Christ?
Dear Genius,
They don't have Home Leaders anymore.
To the commentator above at 8:39. I dont understand why you even commented. Even if you are sick of this blog, then dont read it!! It is a place for people to have emotions and feelings and you just totally put them down for what they feel, thus doing the exact same thing that happened to them through this church. Do you want them to keep all their feelings inside?
I for one have personally seen people "grow" as you put it and still have no recognition of god given talents and leadership potential by the leadership. Their was so much potential wasted because of this and all you can say is that they didnt really want to grow in God. Yes, maybe some of us are bitter, and maybe that somehow will be dealt with eventually, but don't put people down just because they have feelings. It almost shows that you have none.
Lack of responsibility of choices? Things not going the way they wanted or someone being chosen over them is so not the issue. And no, I'm sure nobody wants to be in her inner circle if thats what your calling it now.
I also think that it is kind of funny how you put Pastor Kari's inner circle and add none of the other leadership. Is that they way everyone sees it there too?
Also, if you were told not to read it, don't you see something wrong with that, a little word I like to think of as "CONTROL"? People can make their choices to read or not to read something. Anyways, think before you write something so demeaning to so many other people!!
Oh, and to make one more comment. I happened to grow up in this church, and i dont necessary hold all bad feelings toward it even though i have seen so many of my friends go through crazy horrible stuff, but after reading your comment above, it makes me sick that i probly have met you at some point. It definitely wouldn't make me want to be a Christian if I knew you. I am a Christian, but I dont have to make comments like yours to feel valuable in Christianity. Maybe choose another place to post your negative thoughts.
I suppose we should cut the first commenter some slack. They're just repeating what they were told/programmed to say
ASL
Oh, and we have poor taste in music, and bad haircuts, too.
Sorry, I was trying to inject some humor, but I am afraid it came off as sarcastic.
I don't think that they understand we are not angry, we are trying to process the LFF experience. Maybe that is an impossible task, but I do think that some people have been able to tell their story and find some healing.
And I think 8:39 makes a very strong case for LFF being a cult, if anybody was in doubt.
I am not bitter that someone was chosen over me. I was chosen by Kari as someone with potential. Then when I got closer to her, I saw how terribly she treated people (not me, I had her favor.) I addressed this with her and she denied it. Now that she has finally been made to answer for the pain she has caused and the magnitude of her sins, she is again denying it. It is funny that her response has been predicted all over the blog and true to form she adheres to her same shoddy defense mechanisms. Even funnier she is accusing people of failing to take responsibility for their own actions. Well, we all know Kari reads this...when is she going to take responsibility for hers? How aloof she is to make stupid accusations about responsibility while shirking responsibility for her actions. It is a true testament to the problem. She is confirming her inability to see her own flaws. It is sad that Kari feels she has to pick people with potential and overlook those she deems as a "waste of her time." I am glad Jesus didn't feel I was a waste of time.
I was in a relationship that had Kari's "seal of approval." He was abusive, both verbally and phisically. What does that tell you about gaining Kari's approval?
Though all of this is really good, we are getting off of the original blog! LFF held the opinion that pain and suffering were the result of sin or demon possession. How callus! In my church I am in now, they believe that pain and suffering are a part of life. We had 2 people die of cancer in one year. Also, we currently have a young man who is terribly sick and no one knows why, including his multiple doctors. What is their reaction to these people and their families? Prayer and help in the form of meals and other things. Even when my mom’s best friend at my current church died and her husband got engaged to another woman after only a year, my church is very happy for him. At LFF, that man would be excommunicated. Currently, though, he is still an elder.
What a difference.
It appears that the 11/25/2005 10:00 AM poster needs to revert to ad nauseum
Ad hominem, my bad
2:31 blog -- Why would the widower be excommunicated for remarrying after his wife died?
The origianl title of this entry is, "What happened to love?" The answer is NOTHING happened to Love. He is alive and well, and knows every hair on your head.He stretched out His arms and died for you and for me. He rose again from the dead and we can live with Love forever. Love's name is JESUS!
To the original poster:
I too still attend LFF, and there is some bitterness here. But to write off everything you read as the lies of people with axes to grind is just plain Foolish. There is some genuine pain here, whether caused by church leadership or otherwise. If it was caused by things that are still happening, then it is imperative that these things be brought to light.
because it was only about one year after. I was exagerating. He probably would just have not been thought well of
Damn right there is some bitterness! Many of us on this blog have been robbed and raped of our abilities to trust others, to have a true relationship with God, secure feelings about ourselves and to just be free from these experiences that have scared our lives.
Healing comes, this place allows us to be heard and to hear others. We do not spout out personal attacks at the members or leadership of LFF we only speak the truth about what has and continues to happen. There's no denying the truth. Use one of your one LFF analogies to better understand....if you have a purple cow in your backyard, not one can tell you that a purple cow does not exist because you know it exists. Its the same with what has happened to each and everyone of us personally or through witnessing it.
Man I really hate to call myself a Christian because many christians are dicks! Thank GOD and I mean only thank GOD that He does not treat us in the ways that so-called christians do.
To the poster from LFF: ALL PEOPLE HAVE POTENTIAL!!! All are equal in the eyes of God.
To harness the potential of the people, you must love them, respect them, treat them ALL as equals.
I can name many, at LFF who were once hard core drug addicts. Including now pastors and ministers.
Who is Kari to decide who has potential, and who does not? After all, what "potential" is being measured anyway? The potential to serve God, or the potential to fatten the glutenous pocketbooks of the pastors?
I think the "potential" Kari likes to see, is that of persons who follow easily and don't question where they are being led.
I agree with several other posts that it is more "processing information" than being bitter, which led to the creation of this blog (God bless it's creators). To understand what happened, you must figure out the whys and hows. Only then can you prevent future occurrences.
There are many loving christians and non-christians alike who write on this blog. Most will go on to bigger and better things than LFF. Right now, they are simply taking a moment to get their bearings so they may see which road(s) to travel in the future.
Can't avoid the cacti along that road if you don't look for the thorns.
Interesting that Kari is both the focal point of the blogger from LFF, and of some others who have left. Her name has come up the most on the blog, in fact.
I think that says something about how much change still needs to take place, as well as who holds the reins of power at LFF.
Like mother like daughter.
Graciouness, love, mercy, patience: basically all the fruit of the Spirit are undermined at LFF in many ways - mostly because of some individuals but also the wrong beliefs. Their teachings don't reflect a truly gracious God who died for sinners and ensures their salvation, but one who demands perfection in order to gain His affection, approval and in the end salvation. This view by definition does not produce loving people - just as Judiasm in Jesus' time did not produce loving Pharisees.
LFF has a superficial view of sin on one hand (they don't believe in the radical nature of sin for non-christians and indwelling sin for christians) yet on the other hand obsess over sinful (and questionable) externalities on the other hand. They focus on tithing mint and cummin but forget the weighter matters that God trully delights in (Luke 11:42 & Matthew 23:23).
Also Jesus himself clearly warned against claiming someone's sin is the exact cause of their tragedies(Luke 13:4). Beyond Jesus' teaching against it, it also implies one *knows* the exact mind of God in a paticular situation in order to make that judgement - an arrogant presumption to say the least.
This view is grossly reductionistic, it believes all suffering is tied directly to some paticular sin, which is not necessarily the case - God has many reasons to allow suffering - such as the case of Job. God is bigger than just wacking people for specific sins - in fact Jesus's point is we ALL would be wacked if not for the grace and mercy of God.
We are to mourn with those who mourn, care for the hurt, show love as Christ showed love to us. Jesus came to Earth and died a death for us while we were still SINNERS - he made the most extreme sacrifice for the most extermely underserving - we need to emulate Christ and show mercy and grace in kind.
Concerning domineering, manipulating women like Kari and her kind who are in "ordained pastoral ministry roles" ....just maybe that is one reason a careful (othodox) reading of the story of Deborah and Barak will cause reader to conclude that we need more not less male leadership.
Men are inherently broken as are women but we can still be equal before the cross and yet have different roles in spiritual leadership. To use an American feminist-egalitarian mold and to push it on the church is wrong headed.
LFF has put a modern egalitarian-feminist twist on its ministry model, ignoring Paul's admonition for women not to exercise authority over men. They typically blow it off by pulling other verses out of context. They also state that the example of Deborah shows that women should be in the ordained ministry. Even Deborah herself said it was only Barak's abdication of his God-given leadership role that caused the victory to come through a women. Deborah is an example of a reluctant spiritual leader and should not be the norm.
I ask all readers to examine the historical roots or lack thereof in how LFF was founded. The quirkiness of their doctrines and practices comes from Karl's lack of understanding of historical orthodoxy as well his own kalaidescope Christian experience (Episcopal to Bethel Bible church to Charismatic to The Covenant to the LFF-heterodoxy.)
The problem I have with the above comment (2:56 pm) is that you are throwing out the baby with the bath. To say that pastoral ministry should be based on gender is to continue the partriarchal myopic thinking that subjects women to roles that limit them. Doesn't the Bible say that there is no division between us now? There is no male or female, Jew or Greek, bond or free! Just because Kari is a female, doesn't mean that all women are manipulative and controlling.
One question for the above commentor: Are you male or female?
Not trying to flame, I simply disagree with the idea you put forth.
So call me slow, but I was the original poster of this blog. Life is busy - I'm not here every day reading and eating it up.
To the current members who have once again read and diagnosed my life and problems to "not in the inner circle" or "bitter" ..."voila!" - once again I am amazed at the inaccuracy of the diagnosis. You only continue in the same the path. I wasn't talking about years ago only - I was talking about last month - a kid too young to die and family members who are still there and left to stand off and criticize because that is what they have been taught and still believe is godly. As for how close I got to the "in" - you have no idea. Were I to really expose the stories, the thoughts, the things said, the meetings, the confrontations, the trouble I was in for years and years and years - you would all be agast. In fact, the fact that I stay rather vague is a protection to all of the good hearted people who sincerely love God and are still at LFF. I'm not trying to hurt others. I'm trying to ask poignant questions - maybe make you stop and think before you cast judgement. Oops - wait - too late. Sorry.
I wanna t-shirt that says, "I got dragged in front of the five-fold ministry and flogged!"
I am kinda sad that someone could still have that view that it is ok for Kari to be up to her same ole stuff.
I was in the inner circle and it took me several years to start catching on to the lies being told. I caught her personally in several lies. I tried to make excuses for it, that she was just seeing things from a different perspective. Not so. A couple of the lies were so blatant I had to face reality.
I had been confronted by her that I just needed to trust my leadership so it took a long time to let myself face the truth.
Let me ask you - why are her chosen people mostly young men, and most of her "spiritual sons" were good looking. I know of several whom she would share time with far more than her own husband.
And I became a spiritual daughter in law, so to speak. Boy was that hell. It's hard to share your husband in with another woman. She involved herself in all our decision making, and would approach him for everything leaving me in the dark. I felt like an outsider and lived in fear because I never knew if I was "disobeying" because of decisions talked about behind my back.
Oh, and if I had winked at her husband or given him special looks, called him on his cell phone, done special things for his birthday or just because, etc, you can bet that all hell would have broke loose. No one else is allowed to act that way with other people's husbands so why does she get away with it?
I could go on and on about stuff that happened but I don't need to. I just hope that Suzanne isn't going through all of this with Joe as the other woman's puppet. I get scared for her sometimes.
I always thought it interesting that the "chosen" seemed to come from families with some degree of wealth.
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