More from the comment box...
It seems there are those that do not frequently check the comment boxes. Thus, here is a comment to a previous post that we feel is both heartfelt and indicative of that which remains at LFF. This saddens us in that, "omission" is arguably out of the question. We leave this comment open for discussion and hope, our readers can provide some insight into what still takes place at LFF.
To the person who is still at LFF:
You have no idea how often you have been and continue to be deceived at LFF. I know many who have caught the Vances in lies about various issues and it has occurred even in the last few months. I caught Kari in several lies and I was deeply grieved that someone who had no grace on others she had caught lying, would be so into the practice herself.
When asked about issues that are causing people to leave, the Vances frequently reply "I don't know what you are talking about". The truth be told, people have gone to them over and over again with abuse issues and they won't hear it.
You can't tell me it's changed when they continue to refuse to come clean about things they have done to people and continue to lie. They want everything to look good but won't face the rot that is at the core. By their own teaching if things were really different they would have "Repented and confessed".
Neither of things have happened.
Please remain open to things God puts in your heart. Too many of us were afraid we were critical, or something was wrong with us so we kept our mouths shut or shut down our intuition. We didn't tell the emperor (or emperess in this case) about her lack of clothing.
Don't be afraid to contact people who have left (there is over 250 in the last couple years) and ask questions. You will find many of us are going on loving God but are still deeply hurting from LFF and are in the healing process.
38 comments:
is Kari Vance just seriously deceived or spiritually inept? or does she really have the intellectual wherewithal to develop such a system on her own?
i seriously doubt the latter.
Kari Vance is her father's daughter. She desperately wants to please her father and earn his approval, and is following closely in the way that she was trained up as a child. He has not changed. Is it surprising that she has not?
I don't know about Kari since I haven't seen her in 9 years. But I heard that Pastor Sherri has really changed for the better. I always loved her heart, and I don't know how she put up with P.K. all of those years. But I heard the church she and Pastor Kev started is much better and full of grace! Any one have other points of view?
I remember one time when Joe and Kari reassured me that all the hardship they were purposely adding to my life was God's plan. I used to cry because I was os frustrated at the vesion of holiness that was required of me. I could do it but it meant nothing to me. The things God was telling me were unimportant to them. What was important were their little meetings to discuss what God's plan was. As I look back I see how right they were. If I hadn't gotten that close to the top and had to deal with those people, and listen to their "private" conversations about specific sins in the lives of people I considered peers, I never would have seen what was really going on. God used my experiences with that "couple" to open my eyes to how big He really was. I am free now and serving God in new ways that are so much bigger and better. All things work together for good...
To the question about Sherri, I have heard the opposite about her and Kevin's church - that it was not doing well - the source? Kari Vance. You can admire her heart all you want, you were obviously on her good side. I could go on and on with the stories that relay how her heart wasn't so good. Don't pity her for being married to Karl, they were very equally yoked.
I think it is important to remember that NO Barden treated anyone equally. How do you think Joe got to where he is?? If he had gone through what I went through, he would be long gone. Joe has NO idea how Kari treats people, he has heard the complaints, but his experiences have been so vastly different that he cannot even comprehend.
The same is true for Sherri Barden. She and I never had any problems, but I have friends who have told me stories that I can hardly believe, but, knowing the true character of these people makes the stories believable. Inconsistency like this really points to a lack of integrity on all their parts. Jesus didn't treat people differently... PERIOD. He demonstrated unconditional love for all. This is what we, as people made in His image should strive for.
The entire Barden family has always done this inconsistent treatment stuff... think back to homegroup changes... has anyone ever thought "oh, there's the 'cool' group, and the 'not as cool' group" Maybe I am the only one that noticed this inconsistent treatment. I would never trust or be close to anyone who treated me so vastly different than the way they treated my best friend, or my roommate, or whoever...
just my thoughts...
I had fairly extensive contact with Sherri and Kevin a couple of years back. What I noticed in their new church was that try as they might, there was still a strong scent of lff around the place. My recent contact with the Bardens has been less satisfactory, and my email to PS about what might be happening in the church in Pt. Ludlow went unanswered. I noticed that the building was for sale the last time I was up that way. So, that's all I know.....
Kari once told me she had only told one lie ever in her life. Funny thing is, anyone who would make that claim is obviously lying.
I didn't get put in the "not as cool" home group until I got married - perhaps together we were "not as cool" ha ha! Glad I'm not alone on that one - thought I was a real snob!!! You're right about no one being treated equally, I was loved by Karl, despised by Sherri, ignored by Kari and abused by Juli. Go figure.
The sad truth is - they are all the biggest bunch of insecure people you'd ever meet. The whole bunch of 'em - that is why they must make themselves look better, more spiritual, etc. by always making others look bad. It's typical grade school behavior in the church. What makes me so sad are the beautiful people with such pure hearts that are still there, being held down and held back in so many ways. The very ones who are "screaming about us all" at Spiritual Warfare. Believing what we say is wrong, yet knowing in their hearts that they have questioned the very things we are talking about, but are too fearful to make a change.
As for the changes in any of the Barden clan and pastoral team - doubt it. I wouldn't trust anything they say - it's all about them and to serve their good in some way - all of them. The whole web of manipulation and lies is to make sure they don't have to ever face reality - I'm not sure anyone would survive that reality without serious depression and despair. A common threat from the one mentioned - "I'll kill myself" - yet another manipulation to take control and make people back off and patronize her so she doesn't feel like she's done anything wrong.
I wouldn't trust them on any level - their marriages are a farce, their reality is vastly different than what they say and inside I would bet they are tremendously lonely and unhappy...despite what they might say and/or fake to others.
The fact that one would even claim to never have "sinned" or "lied" - needs no further comment. There is so much deception that the truth is merely a fantasy - and they think they live it.
In regards to people being given special treatment, the oldest Vance boy gets away with things at PCS that other kids would get blasted for.....better yet, that nature of behavior by kids in a public school would be referred to law enforcement. I guess there is a "no tolerance" policy in that school (which the Vances are the administrators).
My name is Daniel Bailey, and I attended LFF for 2 years from 1977-1979 and then later from 1980-1981. The church that would claim to be care for me was the very group that I would find would bring so much pain and anguish to my life. Let me tell you the saga of my LFF addiction…
My heart breaks thinking of my old friends from LFF who have been cowering for the past 24 years; cowering in fear of angering the ‘leadership’, cowering for fear of being ‘out of God’s will’, cowering for fear of harboring inner sin. I am writing this, not to brag, but to let you know that God does want to bless us, but not for our own gains, but so we can bless others.
I attended LFF when it was still meeting at the Barden’s house. Later they moved to Gladish School, and then while I was away, they built the then new “Tabernacle” (but not the 2200 seat, mortgage anchor that they now have).
Because of my choice to be committed to ‘body life’, I didn’t spend much time studying and as a result, I flunked out of Washington State University (WSU) after 2 years. I moved back home to Tacoma and enrolled in a community college and got almost straight A’s (Imagine that, not having to go to 3 or 4 work crews a week, catechism classes, Sunday morning services, Sunday evening services, Wednesday night services, multiple morning prayer meetings gave me time to study :-).
During my time in Tacoma, I had hardly any contact with anyone from Pullman. I felt so alone and really longed to back “in fellowship”, and “in God’s will”. During this dark time of my life, my dog died and it was a pretty traumatic event for me. I had never faced death before in a close, personal way until then. Those months were so lonely. I felt abandoned by my friends and God, but I blamed it on sin in my life rather than a dysfunctional church in a far-away city called Pullman.
Once I had completed 2 quarters at the community college, I moved back to Pullman and found a temporary job working at the library at WSU. How pathetic that I had to rush back to where I felt I had friends. I just couldn’t see how conditional the love of LFF was.
During this time, Mount St. Helens erupted, and I moved back to Tacoma for the summer because the eruption significantly impacted the Pullman economy and I couldn’t find a summer job.
I naturally longed to be back in Pullman where “God was moving” (As if God doesn’t move in other places, if you believe LFF– HA! God is alive and present everywhere, including Pullman, and he loves us too much to leave us there! :-)
I returned to Pullman and started classes again in the fall. Because I fell back into the same old patterns of letting ‘body life’ consume all my time, my grades were marginal. After two semesters of this, I realized that something was wrong and I probably needed to do something else. My parents had helped me with housing expenses, and I paid for tuition, books, and other expenses, but they were not willing to help if I didn’t get better grades.
I moved back to Tacoma because I didn’t have money to continue my LFF addiction. I searched for a job and for a couple of months I couldn’t find anything. I was looking very hard, but it seemed that there just weren’t any jobs. Of course if I didn’t have sin in my life, I’d probably back in Pullman… or so I believed anyway.
My mother suggested I check into joining the Army. I wanted to check off that box and be done with it so I wouldn’t be nagged by her (not that she was a nag, I just was under a lot of pressure to get a job), so I went to a recruiter and found out that the military really was a viable option. I took my enlistment oath at the end of July 1981, and then went on active duty for 4 years. Of course, I knew that by joining the Army, I had shut out any possibility of quickly returning to Pullman, so that would mean that I was “out of God’s will”.
Well let me tell you, that for me, joining the Army was one of the best and smartest things I’ve ever done. It gave me time to realize who I was and what I wanted out of life. I learned some skills that would have very difficult to acquire, and had opportunities that civilians will never experience.
I went to basic training and then to my advanced individual training (AIT). My basic training company used the same parade field where Bill Murray hollered out “ARMY TRAINING SIR!” in the movie “Stripes”, which was filmed at Fort Knox just a few months before I was there.
During all this time, I had kept in touch with one girl friend at LFF, who was just that, a friend. But during my time away I realized that I liked her a lot, so after my AIT, I went home to Tacoma to pick up my car and drive it to Fort Carson, Colorado which was to be my first permanent duty station. On the way to Colorado, I made a stop in Pullman, and ended up getting engaged to her.
The first few months after arriving at Fort Carson, we kept in reasonably close contact, calling or writing frequently. After a while, the calls and letters trickled to a stop, and I couldn’t get in contact with my fiancé. I would call and she wouldn’t be there, or her roommates would answer the phone.
Little did I realize what was truly happening... The claws of the beast that is LFF had wound their way into my (now ex) fiancé’s heart. I don’t know exactly what was told to her by her ‘shepherds’, but ultimately we broke off the relationship. But I never heard it from her mouth.
That’s right, I’m probably one of the few people on earth that have received a “Dear John” letter from their dad. Yes, my dad sent me a letter saying that he had been in contact with someone who was still at LFF and it seemed that the engagement was over. Huh? What’s up with that? She couldn’t tell me personally? I think I saw her a few times in later years on visits to Pullman. I think all we said was an uncomfortable ‘hi’, and maybe some small talk. But I’m sure there’s a file somewhere at LFF that says what I really said ;-)
How could she leave Pullman when God was clearly moving there? The life of being the wife of an Army private probably wasn’t good enough for her, so her ‘oversight’ probably nixed the idea of moving away from Pullman, even for a few short years until we could move back to Pullman. Because of my LFF addiction, I had figured that that is what I would do, once I had done my four-year enlistment. Thankfully, God made it possible for me to think for myself and I ultimately escaped from Pullman and the lure of the First Church of Barden, or Tithing Faith Fellowship ;-).
After I had been in Colorado for 2 years, I got orders to go to Germany. Yes! A dream of mine would be achieved, which was to live in Germany again (as I had lived there for 3 years as a kid), and I read, wrote, spoke German very well and had German relatives there.
I had an incredible time in Germany and would go back even today if the right opportunity came up. I got involved with a small church. I also met some incredible people and found out that God was moving there in Germany.
Wait a minute… How could this be? I thought that God only worked in Pullman… the stronghold of LFF in my heart and mind was slowly coming apart, little by little.
After I got out of the Army I decided not to return to Pullman, but to return to Colorado and finish my bachelor’s degree as I had also taken some classes there. Because of my military training, I found a job doing computer programming at twice the salary I making as an sergeant in the Army. I continued to be in the inactive Reserves as I had a 6-year total commitment (4 active, and 2 reserve).
Let me tell you about some of the incredible opportunities God has given me, ones that I never would have experienced, had I stayed in Karl’s, er God’s will in Pullman.
I had the opportunity to buy my first house. I didn’t need to get permission from my home group leader either. I did seek out some advice on the house-buying process, but I knew that getting some real estate would be a good thing. My home ended up appreciating $30,000 in 6 years. (I did do some remodeling, but I didn’t spend anywhere near $30,000 on it.)
The Army started some great tuition assistance programs for reservists, so as a result, I was able to get paid to finish my degree. I then completed my master’s degree from a nationally known university, the University of Southern California. Somehow, that name recognition of USC is a bit more than that of WSU. Not that it’s about names, but if you get the opportunity, it’s nice to have. Of course, if you’re following God’s will, you’ll be in Pullman, so you won’t have that opportunity… or is it God’s will? Hmmm…
Around 1987, I decided I wanted to become a military officer, so I initially started taking training to become a warrant officer, an officer who is a technical specialist in a particular field. Most helicopter pilots in the Army are warrant officers.
My former commander when I was in Germany suggested that I become a regular commissioned officer, and with her help and encouragement, I was able to be commissioned as a second Lieutenant in Medical Service Corps of the US Army Reserve on January 1st, 1989. I spent 3 months on active duty that year in San Antonio Texas, for my Medical Service Corps Officer Basic course.
Since my commissioning, I’ve achieved the rank of Major and am proud of it. I’ll most likely reach Lieutenant Colonel by the time I retire. Of course, had I stayed in Pullman, none of this would have ever happened.
During my time in the Army on active duty, I learned about true leadership, not the kind of selfishness that is passed off as leadership at LFF. Leadership isn’t about growing your empire, but taking care of your people. I saw that kind of leadership in action by people that would be branded as sinners and heathen by the ‘leadership’ of LFF.
Granted there are bad, selfish leaders in the military as there are everywhere, but there are also thousands of dedicated, hard-working soldiers, sailors, airmen, coast guardsmen and marines who defend the freedom that those on the staff of LFF so richly enjoy (emphasis on rich) and would never lift a finger to defend themselves, or allow any of their tithing members to leave Pullman to defend either.
In 1990, I met my wife Marti, who has shown me the true meaning of love and has taught me volumes about human relationships, far more than I ever learned in Pullman, unless that relationship involved serving the leadership of LFF; that we got right. How far that is from Jesus’ example of service. He said he didn’t come to serve, but to be a servant. Unlike someone else, she followed me when the military mobilized me after the September 11th attacks.
Yes Virginia, there is a life outside of Pullman, and I’m proud to have discovered that for myself In my time outside of LFF, I’ve had the opportunity to travel in all 50 states, 6 Canadian provinces, 25 countries. I’ve had the opportunity to serve my country by being called to active duty for over 2 years as a Reservist.
While on active duty I regularly briefed a 3-star general, and roomful of other generals. I had the opportunity to meet with a Congressional investigative subcommittee to answer questions about electronic health care records. I had the opportunity to meet the British Army surgeon general. I had the opportunity to live in the nation’s capital region for over 2 years.
I’ve had the opportunity to design and build our own house using modern construction materials such as insulated concrete forms, skylights, solid wood floors over concrete with radiant heat, and modern technologies such as automated lighting control. That same house also has a small indoor swimming pool by a company called Endless Pools. That house sits on 10 acres in a beautiful area north of Colorado Springs. Certainly an LFF tither wouldn’t be permitted to spend money on such a frivolous waste as an indoor pool or fancy house… Oh unless your last name is Barden or your title is Pastor even though you have no clue as to what that word means… Yeah, right. Keep on tithing…
I’ve had the opportunity to play keyboards on a worship team at a church that has incredibly stretched me and grown me as a musician. I’ve had the opportunity to play with nationally known worship leaders and Christian artists.
In the last few years, I’ve had the opportunity to play grand piano in front of thousands of people. Never mind that I’m self taught at keyboards and am not technically the best of the keyboardists at the church, I’ve been given the opportunity by those in the worship arts department to really grow and improve my musical skills. I’ve even found out that there’s a small fan club of people out there that really like the way I play.
Never in my wildest dreams did I ever think I would be on the same stage playing a 6’ Yamaha grand with people like Matthew Ward of the former group Second Chapter of Acts, or Geoff Moore who’s an incredible songwriter, and others. Yet God put it in my heart to play piano, and he’s made it happen.
I’ve had the opportunity to see musicals on Broadway, in London’s West end, in Washington DC, and at the Denver Center for the Performing Arts. I’ve had front-row season tickets to the Colorado Symphony Orchestra (now called the Colorado Springs Philharmonic Orchestra) for many years. I’ve had opportunities to perform in incredibly high quality musical and stage productions.
I’ve had the opportunity to help change the lives of over a hundred young men by serving as their Scoutmaster for about 10 years in a Boy Scout troop. I served and worked to make it fun, exciting, and safe. I was able to help the boys see beyond their lives and see the possibilities that are available to them.
I had the opportunity to change the life of one specific young man, our son DJ, whom we adopted a few years ago. He had gone through some incredible abuse by his biological mother and many others, and I was contacted by his former adoptive mother and asked if we could take care of him temporarily, possibly permanently. I told her the stupidest Christian platitude of “I’ll pray about it”, when I knew there was nothing to pray about. Nothing. The right thing to do was to take him in and help. I called her back a few hours later with our decision.
We were to find out that DJ had some severe issues, but he’s been working through them, and I’m proud of the fact that Marti and I were able to help him learn how to read, not that he’s perfect at it, but when he came to us at age 12, he couldn’t read at all. Zero, zip,none, zilch…
We also helped him deal with fears, overcome insomnia, reach a normal weight (he weighed 61 pounds when he moved in with us, the bottom 5th percentile for his age), and learn what normal is. DJ is now 19, and is working through his life on his own, making his own decisions, some of which he’s been getting wrong, but we know that God is still working in his life and we’re proud of him.
Yes, that’s the Christian life, helping those in need, not those in greed…
I’ve had the opportunity to find out what a good church really is like. After my time at LFF, I didn’t really know how a church should function, so naturally I sought out churches that were dysfunctional. After I got off active duty, I went to a church in Colorado Springs that had, to a significantly lesser degree anyway, the same leadership abuses that you find at LFF.
Ultimately the church went through a church split and my wife and I help establish a new church. However, when we got DJ, we had to leave that church behind too, so God brought us to a mega-church of about 4000 members at that time. They were a member of the Willow Creek association and in them , we found a church that did church the way church should be done. It wasn’t about controlling the members, but it was and is about reaching out to people who are seekers.
Our church isn’t perfect. I’m not a member of my church out of fear, but I’m a member of my church because I want to be, because I believe in their methods and goals.
The common word in all these past few paragraphs is opportunity. I had the opportunity. I had the opportunity and I took it. I sought counsel from friends, family, but the decisions were mine and I can take responsibility for them. Not everything has turned out rosy. I’d be lying like a rug if I said it has.
To misquote Clark Gable, “Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn about LFF.” God, and God alone, is the opinion that ultimately matters.
You know who you are, you can contact me via my blog at www.livejournal.com/users/danielbailey or www.danielbailey.blogspot.com, and I’d love to hear from you, maybe talk with you and maybe you can see the world of opportunity out there that the Creator of the Universe has for you.
If you’re looking for a church home, consider going to http://www.willowcreek.com/ and finding a church that is striving to be ‘seeker sensitive’. Not that they’re perfect, but they can be a good starting point. Just find one that doesn’t substitute God’s liberating Gospel with a message of fear and subjection to the ‘leadership’. You’ll know it when you see it. You’ll probably cry like a baby when you see that such a thing really exists.
I can say that as I look back on my life as I’ve written this, I can see, without a doubt, that the faithful Father, Creator of the whole Universe, looks on me and says… There’s my man Daniel Bailey… There’s not another one like him anywhere, and I like him, just the way he is... Isn’t he cool?
He says that about you too…
I recently read a great book about a guy's experience in an eastern cult. Despite the differences in type of religion, the similarities with LFF were amazing. It's called "Take me for a Ride" and is available for free on the Gutenberg Project:
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/162
“Finding God’s Will vs. DOING God’s Will”
One of the things that I’ve noticed that modern Evangelical and charismatic American Christians frequently focus on is “finding the will of God” for their lives. Where in the Bible is there a command to find the will of God? The Bible says to do the will of God. Or “In everything give thanks, FOR THIS IS THE WILL OF GOD, in Christ Jesus concerning you”.
The problem with trying to find the will of God is that we’re not, nor will we ever be omniscient. For years after I left Pullman, I felt like I had somehow veered off the little yellow brick road that God had proscribed for me. Or did maybe someone else proscribe that road, and God had a different plan all the time?
Is God so weak that he can’t work in our lives if we move from one place to another? Did He sit up in heaven and say “Rats! How can I work in Dan’s life now that he’s moved away from Pullman?” Uh… I don’t think so. That’s precisely why God is omnipotent, and He CAN work wherever, whenever He chooses to.
I can see Him saying with a jovial cackle in His voice as I make the decision to not return to Pullman “MWAAHAHAHAHA! Excellent! Excellent! Ve heff vays of making you holy! My plaaaaan is proceeding exactly as I knew it would. You will change and grow.” He can work in LFF, outside of LFF. He works in spite LFF, because He’s God!
Did the father in the story of the prodigal son (Luke 15) disown his son when he moved away? NO! He continued to watch and wait for him. “While the son was far off… the father ran.” Romans 8:28 makes it clear that God works things out for those that love Him, even those times of sin. Certainly the father in the prodigal son story used the son’s time of sin to show the son his love and to try to make a change in the older brother’s heart too.
The point in all of this is DO THE WILL of God. Don’t try to ‘find’ it, because you won’t. You can’t. If God has given you certain talents, use them! If you’re a painter, paint something, if you’re a musician, make music. God didn’t give you those talents just to frustrate you in some big sick cosmic joke.
Why do flowers bloom only to fade and wither a few weeks or months later? They do because that’s the way God made them. Granted, you won’t always be able to be lead piano player, or have your artwork hang in the Louvre, but use your gifts and talents. Don’t let them rot in Pullman, or any other place for that matter.
In everything give thanks, for THIS is the will of God…
See how easy that is?
One thing I would just like to remind everybody of after reading some of these posts... "Pullman" is not LFF and "WSU" is not LFF. A few comments have come off very negative to both in relation to LFF.
Let me clarify... When I say Pullman, I'm referring to the world view that LFF held while I was there anyway, that you should stay in Pullman, because God was moving in Pullman.
However based on another post, it sounds like they still do that, based on what one comment said about being forced to say "LFF is the best church in the world". That takes a lot of chutzpah to believe something like that.
Pullman is fine, WSU is a good school. Just don't stay in Pullman, JUST to be at LFF.
In the early nineties Karl Barden once stood up at the podium after a worship service and told everyone he was outlawing the word "just." He never really made his point as to why, but he thought that anyone who said "just" had poor grammar and showed a lack of commitment to whatever they said following the use of the word.
Karl Barden was a legend in his own mind. He probably still is. I still think back to the hallway of quote posters by the restrooms in the old church building now referred to as the "Family Center." (lff never supported family! besides the nepotistic barden family...) So many of those posters had quotes that Karl had ripped off of other people and put his own name next to. And he would quote them from his pulpit of pride, knod his head, and wait for the collective sigh of approval and admiration to emerge from the congregation of the deceived. I still laugh when I think of it. I was so dumb to actually believe anything he said!
Karl's most "famous" quote (one which he could be found quoting and republishing in his books) was: "What you believe determines how you will live." While Karl took credit for it, that was said decades earlier by another famous preacher. One whom Karl should have heard something about in his "seminary" school. Who is it? Billy Graham. Want some proof? Look here and see for yourself. Click on page two, and you will see it in the last paragraph of the second column.
I would just like to say that Joe did go through hell in Pullman . . . I know this for a fact. I'm not sticking up for him and who he is today! I don't believe that the choices he has made are right or that he should treat people the way he does, but he was put through hell.
Kari and Sherri both harped on him very badly. And he had to go through all of the hoops to get where he is today. What a lost for him!
What sadness for everyone; that once you are sucked in to their way of thinking it is so difficult to get out of it.
Daily I am learning that many of the "truths" I was taught while growing up are not true or they were distorted. I truly enjoy the freedom in my daily life and pray for that freedom for all who are still trapped, deceived and manipulated.
Good comment about the posters. I was just thinking about those yesterday ("Your attitude determines your altitude" "I've got a new natural...and it's super") What do those mean???
I've tried for years to figure how we got to the place of idolizing Karl Barden. I first came to what would later become LFF in 1975. Karl wasn't ordained, but he was respected. I can't understand how in a few years the whole climate changed. It seems like it has something to do with the original leadership couples. Did Karl require them to kowtow to him? Did they come up with the idea and try to outdo each other in a bid for favor? They were our examples, and, as the original homeleaders, set themselves up to be followed. I think about this in part because I want to be wise and discerning so that I never fall prey to a scheme like this again.
Joe did go through hell. But not the same hell as everyone else. He was favored from day one because he was on the "cool" list and could sing.(well?)
Many of his peers went through the same things but never received teh favoritism that he received. He was Kari's prodigy, on track for great things from day one. I too witnessed him being yelled at, but it was always followed with the love that others wouldn't receive. Maybe because of his "responsive" heart. Basically, if you only fight back enough to make it look like you tried before you give in they love you. If you keep fighting they distance themselves from you and keep you from anything you dream of becoming involved in.
...even if the thing you are fighting for is right
I always thought Joe was one of the biggest tragedies of the whole church. I still believe he has so much potential to be a strong leader in the church--not LFF--but in his own right.
I agree he was favored. That was obvious. He probably also went through a lot of hell, but not the kind of hell you are describing. The kind of hell I imagine he went through and still probably goes through is having to stifle his own great dreams and vision and honest desire to do something great for God to serve Kari Vance's wishes and vision.
I have talked with Joe many times very deeply and sincerely, and most of the time the feeling I got from him is that he didn't truly believe what he said and how he acted on behalf of LFF. In his eyes I see that he struggles with it every day. Here was a guy who came into LFF much like the rest of us--seeking God, yet with a HUGE amount of leadership gifting and natural talent in many things. And he too fell victim to the system and the manipulations. Now he is one of them, and a guy who could do so much for God, as many of us could as well, is wasting his life and his efforts on a corrupt regime.
One day, perhaps already, Joe will realize that he has been sidestepped as well as heir to the throne. His brother, who has maybe 1/100th of the potential, and his brother's wife, who has zero potential, is now next in line.
well, all of these comments are very insightful... but let's not forget why we are here...
to talk to others who know what we have been through, and to ultimately find healing and greater freedom in our relationship with God.
We can only pray for Joe and his family now, as well as for the Vances and all those left at LFF that God will reveal what He needs to reveal, and that hearts will be open to listen and receive.
Thanks for the reminder!
Now in the words of LFF, "Let's take it higher."
Just thought of this saying and it made me smile and laugh out loud.
Thanks everyone for the encouragement!
I had forgotten about the quotes, well for the most part. I will never forget about Karl Barden's message though on the word 'just.' That was a classic PK message. To this day, I can't hear the word 'just' in a prayer without that correction playing again in my head. His point was that saying 'just' limits God to 'just' whatever you are saying, and no more. Reality is, that God is bigger than our language barriers and He knows our heart, thank goodness!
What I remember about "Just" is that it is a filler. So many people use it when they are praying out loud (usually at the mic at spiritual warfare) while they are trying to think of the next thing they are going to say. It was another prime example of PK showing his intollerance for anyone who thought (or talked) differently than he did. Yes, I accidently used it in a prayer once and heard directly from him. I am so glad that I am in a place right now where I don't have to make other people right or wrong. I can simply love them and bless where they are in God. They are walking in the light they have and they are in the perfect place. I know this is difficult to understand after having the LFF world view crammed down your throats, but it is possible to bless everyone right where they are (yes even the LFF leadership).
As for the posters, when I worked in the bookstore that was the biggest headache, making sure we had the latest poster, and that the oldies but goldies were available too. It is a typical tool for indoctrination. I am sure that part of it stoked his pride, but you have to remember that we ate it up. We wanted those posters in our homes and rooms so we could have "right thinking". I now know that "right thinking" is a relative term. For PK, it was thinking like he thought. For me it is listening to the Holy Spirit myself, and remembering that I am loved, I am accepted, I am whole because I am one with God.
I have to say, that as indoctrinated as I was, I never swallowed the bilge of the posters. "I've got a new natural and it's SUPER!" PUH-LEASE!
Believe it or not, some of the undershepherds fought for the sheep, did not pass every little tidbit on, and that is especially true of the deliverance ministry where people were able to share very deeply and specifically and we didn't pass it on. I know. I was there. We did what we could. When we saw we could do no more, we moved on.
I believe that last comment. I had one HCL in my entire time at LFF that I felt I could really say what I thought no matter how snotty it made me feel and they always accepted me and it never went past them. They really helped correct some of the damage and wrong thinking brought on by previous oversight. I know they are no longer there because they couldn't be a part of it any longer. I thank them for looking out for me. That is what a true shepherd is supposed to do right? Protect their sheep, not feed them to the wolves.
And I wish I could say all of the ones under us over the years felt safe. For all of us, there was specific personal incidents of injury - emotionally, spiritually, etc. For those of you, like myself, who were involved in the leadership...there is even a deeper shame and pain involved. Although I must say, I got my backside kicked over and over, accused of being hard hearted, non-servant, not spiritual, humiliated publicly, unrepentant and lack of a sheperds heart for it, I would do it all over again....what am I talking about? I protected those in our "group" from so much. I re-worded and softened, changed, forgot, left out portions and took the blows where possible, I held information, I basically was a liar myself, to protect those under me from something I did not believe in. I never have done well with legalism and as a significant player in the "legalism structure" I did deliver messages that I wish I never had been a part of. I participated in ruining moments that should have been wonderful, in squishing excitement, in helping to latch the noose around the necks of innocent and honest people who were simply seeking to love God. But I spent years fighting, pressing, questioning and resisting and would get met with affirmation from a few of the pastoral oversight and scorn - hard and mean scorn - from some.
I have repented, asked forgiveness in specifics and tried to move on. But it's so hard. I know I represented a legalistic leader - I hurt others - I participated in this scheme and the pain you speak of - the thought of it makes me sick.
The "cracking point" came at least two years before we left. When I heard those in charge saying we would never sing the song "I'm coming back to a heart of worship" - adamently insisting we'd never left it. Further claiming that Matt Redmond was not really saved since he didn't smile when he sang it.
You're kidding me right? In a deep state of repentance, one usually is not smiling and clapping. This song and this writer who were transforming nations of youth know more about God in that experience than I felt we had ever really touched. REALLY touched. Not pretended or gone through the motions or said/did the "right thing", but really, deeply, personally experienced.
I realized then and there that I could not participate any further - those under us then were so free and so loved and funny thing...we got told time and time again from the leaders that our group "were the healthiest" in the bunch. Funny what a little love, grace and compassion can do!
To all of you who know who I am - forgive me. Fly be Free!
what kind of person would announce they had "never left the heart of worship?"
i heard that, never first person, but was absolutely astonished. I always looked up to people who sang and played worship at church and at CCF. I wished I could be one of them but I had no musical ability of any kind.
So I tried to bring songs I found to them. That was how I would affect worship. I brought the "Heart of Worship" song when it was brand new to several people, and thats when I heard about the "worship minister's" aversion to singing the song.
I never thought of her the same.
Here are the first lyrics to the song.
When the music fades
All is stripped away
And I simply come
Longing just to bring
Something that's of worth
That will bless your heart
I'll bring You more than a song
For a song in itself
Is not what You have required
You search much deeper within
Through the way things appear
You're looking into my heart
I'm coming back to the heart of worhip
And it's all about You
It's all about You, Jesus
I'm sorry, Lord, for the thing I've made it
When it's all about You
It's all about You, Jesus
It is no wonder that they objected! We got so involved with the specatcle of worship and the production, that we would often forget the object! I remember hearing this song when I was at another church, and I put it through the LFF filter and figured that they would never permit it. How can you sing about turning back to God, when you never turned away?
It truly is a loss for the members of church who don't know this beautiful song. I suppose using the LFF filter, then the 51st Psalm should never be allowed either.
I wanted to comment on an earlier comment to this particular entry anout Kari being her father's daughter. Could you imagine growing up with Karl Barden as a Dad? you couldn't pay me money to stay in that house. Kari has never been good enough for her dad. Even when she and phil got put in as pastors, kari had this look on her face like "am i good enough now" and karl humiliated her! i am not in any way shape or form excusing her behavior, but i can understand a little
What I know about the Barden's is that the children and Sherri were all terrified of Karl's displeasure. He ruled that family through fear. It is no wonder that they continue to enforce the policies that he set up. They are probably afraid what he will say or do to them if they come up with an idea that is different.
It is a proven fact that people who were bullied through their childhood will become bullies when they are older or as adults.
Karl must have been bullied, because since his early days at LFF he has been a bully to his staff, his family and every member who crossed his will or even looked at him wrong.
what about the rape cover up? jesses marshall ring a bell ? a whole lot of lff people need to go to jail ya think
I am from Pennsylvania and never attended this church that you speak of. I was trying to get the lyrics ,music, and history behind the song and pulled up this website. How sad. My Dad is a pastor and I grew up as a PK. Instead of constantly bashing the family, why not pray for them? Bring your prayers and concerns to Jesus. He understands and will listen.
Also, the enemy works strong in a pastor's family, because he doesn't want God's message to get out. Pray for everyone involved in ministry! Pray that they will be able to stand against the enemy. We are in a spiritual battle and we need to come together in prayer!
Lititz, PA
I find it very interesting that most of all the entries do not have any names attached to them. Is there fear that something could happen to you? We have the freedom of speach in USA, which is good, but those that are adult enough to say who they are would be standing up for what they believe is right. Thank God for Mr. Bailey who was able to attach his name to what he believes. This is Tim Robnett and I feel that no matter where you go you will see what you want to see. Only Jesus is perfect so pray for the imperfect to become right. I stand in life praising God for Living Faith Fellowship because without finding this church while I lived their would probably of gotten saved later in life. Not to mention that Pastor Karl did say that it is Ok to disagree agreeably. He may have not came up with that concept but for me this is the first time that I heard this and believe that it is a valid point. If it were not for LFF in my life I would probably not be a Youth leader in my current church at this current time. Yes, God has a plan for us all and let your destiny be yours and I'll stick to mine. What God has truly called me to I will never be able to run away from it because this is his fullfilling purpose in my life.
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