Rebuttals

It seems this place is becoming read by more people everyday. We truly can not believe the response and are shocked by how many people continue to visit this place. It is not only frequented by us, the former members, but by those who are still there. We hope those who remain see the true motives here and take this at face value. However, it seems that in typical LFF fashion, the arguments are forming and lines are being drawn. As usual, those on the inside, are making more indelible, this line that separates them from us. And behind that line, the rebuttals are taking shape.

Now, it is not our desire to be hostile or create any animosity towards the truth by those who remain. Yet we feel it our duty to address the most common arguments making their rounds in the inner circles of LFF. Unfortunately, these are the same tactics LFF has always employed and these methods truly attest to the lack of change there. We have been fortunate enough to maintain many relationships with those who still attend. They have been informative and have been forthcoming with their own questions as well as that which is being said to discredit the truths of these pages.

It is not our desire to tell anyone how to think; instead we hope, in presenting the facts logically, people will be enabled to make their own logical decisions. It is so hard when you are surrounded by an environment that exerts so much control to see anything else. And that, among other things has been the reason for this place. We do not, now, consider ourselves enlightened or above those who remain. We instead, wish only to show the words here as fact and realize that unless you have experienced the things being discussed here, our words may seem esoteric. As this post unfolds we will attempt to address the arguments coming from current members.

The first argument is a classic. Not in the sense of timelessly good; instead it is so inadequate an argument it has a name. It is a fallacy, a mistake so huge it is taught to every entry level philosophy student as simply deplorable. Again the leadership is employing ad hominem arguments. Unfortunately, these arguments are at best, foolish. They are a personal attack that is irrelevant to the arguments on the table. Though this has been addressed in several places on this blog, LFF is again reverting to that which they have always known. So please, we beg of those listening to these arguments, disregard them.

First of all, the LFF leadership does not know who is maintaining this blog. Sure there are guesses, but they are just that; guesses. Besides not knowing who the administrators are, almost all of the comments and e-mails are posted anonymously. Sure the pastors are familiar with the more detailed e-mails, one author even intended that. But to throw out every hurt, every pain, and every tear because someone questions the authors’ character would be a mistake. Don’t let personal attacks on a writer blind you from the truth.

The next argument they present is in part, the reason why many of us have left. The fact that this rebuttal would be used to render the words of this site meaningless is reprehensible. Yet this is indeed the case. The statement goes as follows, “Most of the things discussed on this blog happened in the past, under the former senior pastors. LFF has changed and the new pastors are running things differently.” This is, to put it mildly, a lie. A majority of the administrators, and I would venture to say, at least half of the readers, left long after “the baton was passed.” Why? Because it is still the same abusive environment it has always been. There is one person in particular who was and is more duplicitous, abusive, and manipulative than the former pastors ever were.

The current senior pastors would like you to believe that there have been changes, and to a certain extent, there have. Yet, no change has come to the underlying problem and therefore, the manipulation, abuse, and lies continue. I am the most recently departed on this team here and I left four years after the “mantle” was passed on. By the current senior pastors, I have been lied to, put out, and degraded by numerous bouts of “righteous” anger. This is in no way unique to my situation. If one takes a moment to reflect on the people who have left since the transition, it is more than clear that the problems still exist.

Pastors, PCL’s, CCL’s, HCL’s (I know there are cell groups now) and church employees have all left under the new leadership’s watch. Why? Because of past hurts? In some cases; yes. But in many cases it was due to the fact that the current senior pastors are just as oblivious to the pain they inflict as their predecessors. They are unable to admit they have done wrong and when confronted, in love, with their failures, they incredulously deny the obvious truth.

Yet another argument is evidenced in the questions of a current member to a WSU psychology professor. People seem to feel the accounts and details on this site are exaggerated and tainted by emotional wounds. (It is interesting how LFF generally discredits the teachings of the psychology department. Yet, when the thoughts of a professor, unfamiliar with the details, seem agreeable, they form the basis of yet another shoddy rebuttal….)

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I am not a student, just a Pullmanite with a thought that's been bugging me, and I am curious to know if there have been any studies on it, or if it's common knowledge and I just don't know it. =) I wasn't sure how to find out, it's a bit too complex for a Google search, so I thought I'd just ask one of the professors in town, and your description seemed most like the question I have. I understand professors are very busy, so if you are not able to answer for awhile (or at all), I will understand completely. Since I am not a student or a colleague of yours, I expect you to treat my question as a low priority. =)

Okay, my question concerns the reliability of a person's memory as concerns traumatic events in their life. Meaning: say a person goes through an event that either seemed or was indeed offensive, abusive, or traumatic for them. It seems from what I've seen, that if the person does not "come to terms" with the event, or is not "reconciled" with the people or institution who caused the pain, then their re-telling of the event is often exaggerated, and made to sound worse than it actually was. In other words, can a person be trusted to relate the story with objective accuracy, if they still feel the pain of the wound? A second part to my question is this: when people do exaggerate a negative event, do they do so knowingly, to garner more sympathy, or have their memories really been corrupted, to believe the exaggeration?

**************************RESPONSE************************************

Thanks for your email. I'd be happy to try and answer your question. Reliability of memory is a funny thing. If 10 people witness a car accident and report it to police, the police tend to 10 related but differing reports. What this means is that each of us experiences the world differently. As a result we all have different interpretations and memories of an event. Hence, what psychologist have found is that the "accuracy" of a memory is less important than a person's "perception" of the event.

Some people are able to cope with traumatic things quite easily, others have a more difficult time. Moreover, some may be affected by events for years or even a lifetime. For example, many WWII veterans have remained affected by their war experiences for 60+ years. For people who are strongly affected by an event or a part of their life, there are several approaches to helping them overcome those traumas. The goal is not to forget the events but to reduce how much anxiety, anger, frustration, or sadness they feel when they think of the event. The key to treatment is that the person want to deal with their feelings. Interestingly, though we might expect that no-one in their right mind would want to continue feeling upset by things long past, many people are not willing to accept treatment - either because they don't think it will work, they don't want to put in the effort, or they don't want to have to deal directly with the thing that upsets them. Those who care about them can help by finding treatment, giving them emotional support such as letting them know that it will be tough but that they will be there for them, and - in tougher cases - by carefully asking the person about why they want to continue living with these feelings and how it fits in with their life (this is a leverage technique since most people will acknowledge that they don't want to live with such feelings).

In answer to your second question, there is attention that comes with feeling bad. For example, if you have a friend who has a cold but hides it, you tend to give them less sympathy. But, if that friend "appears" very sick, you are more likely to give them more attention. The same is true for these negative feelings. However, traumatic memories - based on real or exaggerated events - are common and hence, there are a lot of treatment options. There are many local psychologists right here in Pullman who can help with such things. Hope this helps and thanks for the question.

Assistant Professor

Department of Psychology

Washington State University

Interesting point. There is definite validity to the statement above, but without the supporting details this rationale truly has no grounds here. It is both short-sighted and cold to call the events here “exaggerated.” It would be easy to believe this if you have not experienced the abuse at the hands of the senior pastors. For, the events that have transpired between sheep and shepherd are so outrageous, they seem completely false. Nevertheless, that is not the case. I know not how many more accounts, comments, e-mails and heartaches need posting before some will see the validity of these things. Being that I, and all of the team members here have experienced first hand, the travesties posted here, I can assure you these accounts are fact.

As administrators, we have opted to keep most specifics under wraps. The details posted by others and from e-mails are graphic enough and should serve as ample evidence. Sadly, if any single administrator were to post a list of specifics, it would be even harder for those who doubt these events to see their truth. In many of our cases, the specifics are beyond comprehension. Though they happened to us and unfolded before our own eyes, it is still difficult to believe these things could have ever taken place. Again, ambiguity, but the truth can at times be too shocking. Thus, exaggeration is the furthest thing from the truth. Instead, we have taken the opposite approach and done our best candy coat events, lending diplomacy to our writing for fear of being labeled liars. As was said by an e-mailer, if we could walk you through this entire blog with a highlighter, we could show you specifics that we have witnessed first hand. And in these specifics are no exaggerations. So, please, don’t ascribe these accounts to misinterpretations and exaggerations. That only deepens the wounds of the hurting.

We are not seeking anyone’s sympathy. We don’t write these facts or recount our pains for the condolences of the public. Instead, this is our humble attempt at lending a voice to that which has been ignored for far too long. We seek not the sympathy of strangers or the reassurances of some digital world, we only desire the truth be known. To exaggerate the events related here would be pointless, a true waste of all of our time. It is sickening that any reader would assume embellishment on the part of the authors. This becomes even more disturbing when people are searching for the ability to forgive and trust again. There is a genuine desire for healing expressed on these pages and for someone to come along and label the wounds of the recovering as bigger than life is detrimental to this process.

Then there are the most vexing statements from the pastors. “Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. The people writing here obviously have grievances and they need to go talk to the person who has offended them.” Really? You read your Bible and felt lead to apply that wisdom here? How sad. It is obvious this site is not vengeful. That is not the point here. People are only relating truths; they are naming pains and hoping to help others. Yet, some pastor, someone who thinks they have a deeper understanding of human motive, labels this as vengeful. Since when is healing vengeful; have you even read anything written here? This site contains pages and pages of truth; there are no malicious intents here. To label this as vengeful or hateful is childish. It is nothing but a meager attempt to derail the truth with inapplicable Scripture. It is not our desire to “dethrone” the pastors; it is our desire to state the truth. We hope to help the hurting and save others from the same. To sit by and watch these things continue to happen would be shirking our duty before God.

As for talking about grievances with the offenders, this has been done. There have been hundreds of people who have tried to talk to the senior pastors and to no avail. Their observations fall on deaf ears; they are labeled as divisive. The truth is silenced by the senior pastors through unfounded accusations. There has been no lack of effort on the part of the departed; we have gone out of our way to resolve the travesties that continue at LFF. We are not harboring bitterness we are merely stating the facts. The onus lies not on the hurt but on those who caused this pain. The fact that many have forgiven those who admit no wrong is commendable. Yet, those they have forgiven still refuse to admit any wrong and that is atrocious. And though this was expected, it truly grieves us all. With a simple click, the pastors come, they read, they judge, and they leave. No apology, no remorse, no admission of guilt. What more can be said? The facts are here but they write them off with a host of mediocre excuses. To ignore the facts is one thing; but to say the truth is exaggerated, vengeful, or simply false only asseverates the gravity of the problems being addressed here.

Perhaps, in this site’s infancy, these words could be written off as false. Yet, to attempt to discredit the truth now shows serious mental deficiency. This project now contains the thoughts and accounts of hundreds. Who in their right mind would accuse everyone here of overstating the truth or of lying? This is absurd; it is like a defense lawyer standing before the jury calling hundreds of witnesses liars. Is this place a sham, is it truly a smattering of facts embellished by the writers for sympathy? No!!!! If there are those who still feel otherwise, we invite your thoughts.

Hello and Welcome...

It has come to our recent attention that this blog was spoken of in a member's meeting this weekend. It seems the senior pastors are refusing to read the blog. This of course is no surprise. This is a problem that has been discussed many times and this statement only confirms that this problem is still there. Whenever someone points out problems and faults at LFF, they are ignored. The senior pastors acknowledging this place, yet ignoring these hurts and problems grieves us. We had hoped their silence meant they knew not of this place. Instead they choose to turn away, effectively burying their heads in the sand. If I close my eyes will it go away? No!!! Ignorance brings no resolution, it only salts these wounds. The more involved members are even told not to come here at all. "It will only make you mad," they say. So not only is ignorance proclaimed in member's meeting it is discipled to the likes of the CCF band. What an odd thing to disciple.

We have seen a large spike in our page loads and can only attribute that to the new audience generated by this recent member’s meeting. We have received several e-mails today from current members relating their own pains and struggles as they continue their relationship with LFF. Out of respect to their requests we will not post these but we thank you for the support. We love hearing everyone’s thoughts, whether or not you agree; that is why this place is here. So far we have received overwhelming support, yet there has to be those out there who feel otherwise and we welcome your thoughts too. Your silence thus far is truly fascinating. If you are new here, you can easily add a comment in the comment box or e-mail it to the address provided on the side of the site.

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Segue…

To the Leadership of LFF:
Please allow us to once again try and explain to you what is happening here. For many years you have hurt hundreds of members in the name of God. This has been done through twisting Scriptures, manipulation, ungodly anger, double-standards, and countless other specific wrongs. For this, you claim no wrong! Your apology is a feeble “We are sorry you feel that way.” And as the hurting struggle, you heap upon them guilt, shame and insults, publicly disgracing them and calling to question their credibility.

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We receive many questions and stories about the control and manipulation that takes place at LFF. We have also addressed these things to the leadership in countless meetings for many years. Every time, these grievances were denied as lies and we would feel your wrath for not sharing the same vision of the church. Fortunately, you can no longer deny this, or anything else, behind closed doors. On this site are many readers and many of them still attend. The manipulation and control at LFF is wrong!!!! Though you have been alerted to this many times you have done nothing but shoot the messenger. Changes have been superficial attempts to spruce up the image but the root of the problem has yet to be changed.

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We have published this blog for two months. Each day the number of emails we receive increases. Since the first post we have had a total of 36 posts by almost as many unique authors. We currently receive more e-mails to post than we can keep up with and have debated posting twice a day. As you proceed through each post on here you will see there are over 200 comments. Though we assume some people have commented more than once; it is clear there is a wide array of contributors here. This site is not just authored by a couple of disgruntled members who had personality conflicts, but by a variety of members. This ranges from members who have not yet left, to members who have been gone for many years. And the voice of many is the same; “LFF has destroyed innocent trust through an ungodly manipulation of people for the personal gain of the leadership.” I have been there when this has happened and anyone who speaks out is written off as a loony, or just a sinner who must be turned over to Satan. The truth of the matter is that most of us are in churches and Jesus is becoming more real to us every day as he heals our wounds and helps us to trust again.

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We are not a small angry mob with a personal vendetta against LFF. We are the throngs of people that were hurt by the wrongs of LFF leadership. We echo the concerns of hundreds and hundreds who have left when their voices were heard no more. So no, we are not a band of “cult” labeling church haters seeking media attention in hopes of bringing down the big bad wolf. We are your friends, your family members, members of leadership, and God loving people who have been set free from the abuses of LFF. Yet, for some reason the leadership has immediately denied our hurts and is now advising current members to stay away. THIS IS A RED FLAG!!!

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Why? We only speak the truth; a truth you say is distorted by emotional wounds. Yet to acknowledge these wounds only adds to the credibility of those who carry them. You caused these wounds and now seek to silence the crying. What are you so afraid of? Let people read and let them make up their own minds. If these claims are false then let them read and they will become more loyal and a closer knit group. If this is truly persecution then you will only benefit from our words as they cause a banding together by your sheep. But, if they are true then is it not right to let them know? The truth shall set you free and if there is no truth on these pages your cause will be vindicated and your member’s loyalty strengthened.

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Throughout history one of the most infamous techniques used to control people has been censorship. It has had a long history in the church as well as most dictatorships and abusive forms of governments. Here are some highlights. (I'll keep this relatively short but if you would like more information on any situation there are plenty of resources.)

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In 1517 Martin Luther posted his ninety-five thesis on the on the door of a catholic church. The big complaint was that because most people could not read, the priests were lying to their church members and telling them that buying indulgence was the only way to heaven. Luther posted his thesis to shed light on the lies of the religious authorities. For his revelation, he was cast into exile and became an outlaw. In the end many people saw the truth and an entire denomination came about because someone spoke up.

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There are countless other examples within the church and there are those beyond the church. In the political realm, we see Communist Russia which had a very strict censorship policy that was used to enforce a communistic regime. In 75 short years Russia became poor and weak. The control they attempted to exert brought a mighty nation to its knees.

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In Iraq, we saw the same thing. With only one news station controlled by one man, many people believed he was the greatest and that he protected and provided for them. In truth many of us have a better quality of life and know what a leader should be able to give and we were not fooled for a minute. How many times have we watched the news and thought, "Wow life will be better for them now that they are not being used for the gain of Saddam Hussein."

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So to the leadership, there is nothing to fear and no need to steer others from this place. It will only strengthen their relationship to LFF or help them move on to a better environment. It is a true win-win situation for you and your members. And to those of you who are reading for the first time, take this all in with an open mind. Don’t let anyone tell you how to interpret this; that is why we have the Holy Spirit. If questions arise, seek their answer in the Bible. Our only intent here is to help. Lest you think otherwise, we seek not to destroy LFF. We simply hope to help in this healing process and pray His comfort for every member, past and present.

From our inbox...

This is another e-mail we recently received.

As a middle-leadership past lff type person, I need to say to whoever may be reading this that may have been “under” my ministry, I am so sorry for the abuse I inflicted on you and I ask that you please forgive me. I cannot say that I was somehow forced to do and say the things I did, because I made a choice. I think it is incredibly ironic and so much more painful to feel the hurt of the abuse inflicted on me through the years, but to know now that I am equally guilty of putting that pain on others and being “the hands extended” of the pastors who asked us to serve in those roles. I can’t receive forgiveness and healing even from God, let alone those I hurt, without taking responsibility for my choices. I can’t ask my kids forgiveness because they were too young to understand. Someday I may be able to tell them in order to keep them from falling prey to what we went through, but they were too young, and are still too young to understand or even remember all of the spankings and neglect. Fortunately my husband and I left early enough that they will not have memories of the experience, although I will always fight the self-hatred I carry for being so cruel. It is so hard to forgive yourself for cruelty to your own children once your eyes are open.

To those who may have been in my husband’s and my home group or care group, I am sorry for the control, for the manipulation, for the anger, that I showed. I believed that I was helping and that I was making you a better Christian and parent and employee and steward of your finances. I believed I was giving back help to others that I had received and was grateful for. I see now that it wasn’t help at all; it was cruel and wrong. I showed no respect for you as adults and individuals who should have been given the space to lead your family and make decisions for yourselves, to follow dreams, and take risks!! How fun that is now that we have freedom to do that! We were much too cautious within the walls of lff, there was too much fear. I wish I could take back so many conversations. I wish that I could go back and correct the wrong things I said. I wish I could take back all of the things I said to the GG students that I lead into deception. I am sorry for the red ink I put on papers of JCD’s and Catechism students where you tried to do your best or just survive in the system, and I told you it wasn’t good enough. I’m sorry for teaching you to tithe too much money to a church that was not using the funds properly. I’m sorry especially that I did it for selfish reasons, wanting acceptance, and promotion too. It is most difficult for me to face not just that I made the choice to be abused, but that I made the choice to abuse others. I have tried to talk to those I know I have hurt specifically, but to others who are hurting, please know that there are so many of us who were middle-leadership who would take back so many things that we’ve done, and would love to hug you, cry with you, and beg your forgiveness. We were wrong to hurt you. You are so loved by God, unconditionally. I think we mostly all know that in our heads, but I pray you know it in your heart as well, and feel it all over, that God loves you and wants you close and we will all get back to that place where we know him in a new way, not out of fear, but out of the amazing love that He has for us.

I read some very negative comments about Joe F and his brother and it made me sad. I want to say, please, please allow for grace anywhere outside of the Barden clan. He is EXACTLY where many of us were before our eyes were open, and I feel for him and for the extreme pain he may someday know for the part he has played in the Barden’s church. My husband was one of pkv’s “sons” and believe me it is a treacherous place for any man to be. If you aren’t a wife of one of her “sons” you may not understand what that means, but your husband is told constantly about his potential in the Kingdom of God, how spiritual he is, how important he is to her. How she looks for him at services. I could go on and on, but these words of encouragement from her are only to the sons, not the wives, not the kids, never as a family. Those of you who are one of the wives, know the look she gives your husband, the special smile and wink. None of those sons married wives worthy of them. Why pv allows his wife to take all of these boys into her spiritual harem and control their hearts and minds the way she does under the guise of spiritual leadership is beyond me. It is sick, and it destroys marriages. My husband went through so much pain after we left. We had to get to know each other all over again and figure out how to communicate without leadership in the middle. It was hard, but the best thing ever for our relationship. We are closer now than we ever have been.

But back to Joe F and his family, please apply grace. You may have been hurt badly by Joe, given wrong advice by Joe, but you very well may have by me too! And I’m begging you to please pray, rather than throw stones in his direction. He is so very talented, and he and his wife have a family and a future that will hopefully move beyond lff in the near future. I think we need to pray even more for his brother who married into the family and can’t ever escape pkv’s reach or her parents without serious turmoil. To say who is more or less talented is really not relevant. God uses us all in so many different ways and there really is no better and worse. We all have impact in our immediate families with our spouses and kids, and that is the most important place of all. After all of the grace that was not extended to us, let’s be those who extend grace the most. And, I suppose I should add, I’ve thrown stones too, so I apologize for correcting something I’m equally guilty of, so this advice is for myself too. Probably one of the steps in the healing process and a lesson better learned earlier rather than later. We love our lff friends dearly, and pray for those friends who are still there. Some of them are unaffected and quite happy, but I still pray that their families will always be their true first priority in their time and in every other way, and that God will always be known as the unconditionally loving God that He is.

Acceptance (via e-mail)

Here is some more e-mail.

For those of us who have experienced the abuse personally, this site has become more addictive than "Desperate Housewives." Every day I am lured to tune in to read the last episode of "Innocence Destroyed." Perhaps one of the contributors could write a screenplay and submit it to the producers of the annual Christmas production at LFF and call it The Grinch who stole Trust. I'll bet they wouldn't have to give tickets away for that one, in fact it might become a means of paying for their indebtedness. Theater is what they do best at LFF anyway. Everything was an act of some sort. The biggest and sorriest act was to tell you that they loved you. What they didn't tell you is that their love was conditional on performance and that translates into God's love for you is equally at risk.

In the last week since I discovered this blog, I have been overwhelmed by the pain described by many of you as you continue to have these trust issues. One of our greatest needs is to love and be loved and to manipulate someone by withholding that love is nothing short of witchcraft. I once heard a noted evangelist use the Galatians passage as the basis for this conclusion. (You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you?) "To bring under malign influence". This is what is clearly happening at LFF, to suck you into their control and influence by first telling you that they are your biggest fans (an actual quote), you are awesome and that they love you and then proceed to malign you by making you measure up to a standard set by the leadership to which you can never aspire. This includes church membership, the ultimate acceptance criteria. We were told that once you were a member, you would really begin to have friends. The only problem was that you needed better credentials to get into the Kingdom of LFF than the Kingdom of God.

The theatrics surrounding our interview for membership deserved an academy award by the "Vice Pastor". We were told how much we were loved and valued. The King & Queen themselves said we were a shoe-in for membership, we couldn't fail. After the usual interrogation, do you do crew, do you write in your spiritual notebook etc. (all very important criteria for membership into this elite body, mind you), the interrogator had to excuse himself for a minute and then came back with a sheet of paper as if he had just now discovered this in the bathroom or wherever he went. Lo and behold, it was our tithing record. Did we need foodstamps to survive? How could we possibly live on such a meager income? All of this in feigned surprise that we must be poverty stricken based on the amount we tithed. I don't know if he did the math in his head or if he had done the calculations well in advance of this meeting, ready to veto the deal at the last minute. After this the meeting was suddenly over. "Come back in one year".

My initial reaction was shame and then gratitude that they loved us so much, then came the overwhelming sense that we had been had, humiliated and rejected, in one gracious performance. Isn't this the greatest church in the world?

Since this site is devoted to healing, let me say that God is bigger than LFF and His love is unconditional. I have been so reassured by the comments submitted that in spite of the misrepresentation, bewitching and false love carried out by the leaders of LFF, they have not turned against God but in many cases have grown stronger in their relationship. We chose to start a house church where those who were affected and bruised could come and in a very non-institutional setting find acceptance and healing. In one of our talks, I gave 10 reasons to feel good about yourself in 2005. No. 4 in the list taken from Ephesians 1 was "I have been accepted in the beloved". I began to consider the implications of that statement in relation to what we experienced at LFF. I considered the example of printing up a brochure for my business. I can create images and layer them. I can send them to the back and lock them behind a cover layer. I can see the image through the first layer but I can't select it anymore to edit it. I am in the beloved like my name is in my brochure. I can see it but I can't mess with it. Only if I go behind the protective layers can I edit it's properties. I think that is similar to what the Holy Spirit does. Our name is sealed in the beloved and no one, not even the senior pastor can take it out.

Everybody Get Together Try And....

A reader has contacted us several times about setting up a meet and greet with the readers of this blog. This is a separate project not sponsored by the administrators here but we think it is a great idea. Obviously, you are all scattered all over the country and geographical boundaries make this impossible for some. In addition, we realize that many people wish to leave that part of their life in the past and the idea of a meet and greet is out of the question.

But for those of you who are interested that are not half a world away, here is what is in place so far. The coordinator of this event is not an administrator here. They have a separate e-mail address so e-mailing them will in no way give your identity to us here on the blog team. We have no way of accessing this person's account so if you have been hesitant to e-mail us, this is not us. The event would be held in the Seattle area as it seems a great number of former members reside in Western Washington. Beyond that there are no more details; no time and place as of yet. However, if you are interested, e-mail the coordinator (a Western Washington resident) and they will provide you with the specifics of this event as they become available. God Bless you all and we hope this helps restore some old friendships and forge new ones. Our only request to those who attend is; forget all the things LFF told you about the people who left; many times those stories were lies. We ask that no one let some story from the pastors hinder your relationships.

The event coordinator's e-mail address:
lffmeetandgreet@gmail.com

Another comment....

This was posted by a reader in the comment box. They have asked us to make this a post on the main page. Enjoy!!!

This is my first time reading & commenting on this site where you are all being so open & vulnerable (if I were to say so OHT would that sting? I don't want it to).

First I must say that the heading "LFF destroys lives" startled me. Not that lives have not or are not being slashed through the mud. I hurt a lot over the pain that so many, many people that have been such an integral part of my life have lived & are living. There has been real pain also in my life & those of my immediate family that hurts too- I'm not a joyful martyr.

My point it that LFF both gave life & took life.

I came to Pullman like most of you did as an 18-yr. old college student. Like many of you my life pre-LFF had not been "pleasant-ville". Emotional, psychological & physical abuse was apart of it. I had become a Christian as a young teen, made choices & lived a life that resembled more Mary Mag before she meet Jesus than after. I had been surrounded my whole life by Christians, many that professed Jesus on one hand, watched, supported, abused &/or lied to me on the other. In one of the 1st prophecies over my life at LFF Jesus shared my experience by telling me that He knew exactly how people who were called by His name had touched me. He said "you have known those who "say" that they are Christians but look to me". [Personal note on "say": I knew the point wasn't if they really were or were not Christians- the point was my focus].

I'm not saying I did or do look to Him, as I should. But this is still one of the most precious Words to me because I knew He knew my pain. What had those that had said that they loved Him done to Him? Was Judas really just trying to manipulate Jesus into becoming what he thought he should be? Did he intend the evil for good or the good for evil? I don't know. But God used it. And because of it I have relationship with Him now & for eternity.

I guess I am likening LFF to the same. I was shot down when I was hurting, told to "buck-up" & repent when my world was falling apart. When I was sick I was ALWAYS in trouble. Where was the one to pick me up & clean me up & love on me? Not there. When my greatest fear was to be alone- I was left all alone & chastised for being demanding. When I grieved - I grieved. I was hurt most when I was already wounded. Pushed aside when I had repented & returned longing to be touched. And as were you all, I was labeled. This person = This.

But Jesus never stopped loving me, longing to touch me & use His people to comfort me.

Now that I have agreed with the life that was taken from me let me share about the life that was given.

I know the Word of God. I rhema the Word of God. My foundations that were built on all else have been shaken & they have fallen (PAINFULLY)- but on the truth I can still stand. I do have strong foundations- they needed dusting off but they are there. I have solid bible training. More personal time in the Word then most Pastors. - Try & stand back & take the legalism out of the sayings, the checklists, the reports. As I actually saw that there had once been real life in the Catholic mass (after enough years away I actually heard what was said & because of all the years of teaching on the Word of God). - Somewhere in there was real life.

Remember, we make legalism: what today is manna tomorrow is slime full of maggots. Let's try not to force feed ourselves or others yesterday's manna.


I know my God is true & every man a liar. People before LFF, people in & through LFF & people after LFF. None of them are different. Some mess with my head more (was it at age 13 or at 30?), some for longer periods of time (was it the rape at 16 or the decades at LFF?). Some have truly loved me, many that did didn't know how. And many times I didn't know how to receive it.

Why does God allow such awful things? This is the #1 most asked question in my post LFF life. And it rarely has to do with LFF. Awful things are awful. They are not LFF, they are not the devastation in New Orleans or Pakistan. They are the child that crossed the street by my church & was hit by a car. Got up feeling bruised but ok- thank God it wasn't that bad. He later died of a massive internal hemorrhage. He had been adopted by a loving family, saved out of a life of poverty, & the orphanage. Where was God in that?

The good in the awful that has touched me? I can often find in it a changed me.

Compassion - it's me taking on someone else's passion. Having already hurt personally, often I can go into battle for those around me that are devastated & paralyzed by what they are in the midst of.

My head knowledge can be challenged but my heart knowledge cannot. What I have walked is mine. I minister out of a life that is not perfect. Believe it or not I learned this at LFF. Not by others example but often by their lack of it. I minister out of a life that has been littered with pain. Pain that both caused me to jump into & to jump out of Jesus' lap. Today those near me know I struggle with depression. They know that when I enter into worship I go someplace else & Jesus ministers to my soul. They know I HAVE to lean on Him & that I don't have it all. They know that I mess up, that I can be hurtful. They also know my love. They see our Jesus in me- sometime they feel His hand in my touch, His voice in my heartcry.

At LFF I lived in community. Post LFF I live in an awful place called the real world. Where people freely smile in my face & stab me in the back. Where if I try to get real with someone they can't handle it. Where I continue to fail & NO ONE forgives me. It's the real world. It sucks (I hate that term but it fits). I live in a world of faces covered with masks. Not much has changed, yet a lot has.

Did people I trust mess with my head? Yep. And as long as I trust they will.

After living a few decades as a LFFer & now living many years post LFF I must say that the other most precious part of my life in & through LFF is YOU.

When was the last time I looked you in the eye & told you that I am grateful for you? I know I never said it enough- nor would I be able to even if I began now & continue through our dear Lords eternity. THANK YOU.

No, not thank you for hurting me, even when you were just trying to do the right thing or what you felt you were told to. Not for the many times that I hurt you. But THANK YOU for living with me, for the moments we touched, for the warmth & depth of the Jesus that is in you.

I know Jesus has been faithful to heal me A LOT. I also know that this week I have been struggling anew with despair. I know that He will one day take away all my tears. But for now I cry. I hurt. I hurt others. But I also love & am loved. I care- that in itself often hurts.

I pray that you all continue to find healing. It scars, but it will heal.


May you find what it is that your heart truly longs for - Jesus. Him pure.

Not through filthy human hands but also often through filthy human hands.

In Num. 22 God used an ass. In my life He has used many & at times I am that one which He uses.

Jesus Bless you as only He can.


Thanks for listening. Did I mention that is something else I miss? - your listening.

Things Learned

Those who have attended LFF and since left have learned many things from the experience. Some of these things have greatly helped in finding or selecting a new church. To that end this post is dedicated.

While many have expressed that simply finding any church other than LFF was an amazing relief. Truly, moving from a controlling and abusive environment to any safe environment has obvious value. However, there are things learned from LFF that have opened our eyes to how things can be better at other churches. These are posted below:

1. I am very wary of churches undergoing large building projects. I was there when Karl Barden effectively pulled the wool over our eyes and convinced us Living Faith Fellowship needed a new building. That year, as with every year at LFF, we sang "There's Gonna Be A Revival In The Land" and listened to the 'prophets' proclaim that the harvest was ripe and God was bringing 'great increase.' Karl told us to expect the communities to come flocking to our church. What was really his laziness in being unwilling to have more than one service in the smaller building turned into the manipulation of the congregation to undertake the building of a 2200 seat monstrosity. This church has financially crippled the entire congregation. I could write an essay on how money ought to be spent in a church, but that is not the point here. At LFF the building is really a sunk cost that looks horrible in the eyes of the community, and is a 2200 seat reminder to anyone who knows the Truth About Living Faith Fellowship why they should avoid association at all costs. I would hate to be part of another church wasting money on a large building which would hurt growth, evangelism and ability to support the poor and needy and Biblical programs in the future.

2. (via email) I will never go to a church again where the pastors are worshipped or viewed with an unnecessary amount of success. I visited a church for awhile after leaving LFF which I thought was great. That was until I found out how the senior pastors were treated. They had "armorbearers" which took care of their every need and waited on them hand and foot. These servants were bending over backward to take care of all the tiny little details that the pastors needed and were treated like rubbish. The pastors clearly thought they were above the people serving them, and had obvious pride issues. This was an eerie reminder to me of the situation at LFF, where I witnessed the lives of some of my closest friends ruined through close service of the pastors. The LFF pastors created this conception that those that served them were the ones that were closest to them, and were those with true 'servants hearts.' Publicly the servants were treated well in most cases to further the false notion in the eyes of those on the outside looking in. But privately, these servants who wanted the love and acceptance of the pastors were abused and manipulated and used to take care of everyday tasks in the pastors' families' lives they felt they were above. I know of true stories of those who have cleaned Vance's childrens rooms on a weekly basis while the kids played. People did their laundry, folded their clothes and undergarments, cleaned their entire houses, made them food, gave them nightly massages, waited on them hand and foot--all in the name of 'service of the Lord.' This was not exclusive to vances, but was pretty much standard across the board for most of the LFF leadership. Serving in itself is not wrong in any way, as truly Jesus served everyone. However, when the servant is abused and manipulated in a way that is detrimental to them physically and emotionally, that is wrong. That is what scares me about pastors who are full of pride and think they deserve special service.

3. (via email) At my new church, one does not have to attend church for years and take special classes to become a member. At LFF we were required to take the introductory church classes, take two years of "Catechism" classes and have it verified by our giving records that we were tithing 23.3% of our gross income before we were allowed to become members. We also had to be approved by pastors who subjectively judged whether or not they thought our hearts and character were supportive of the vision of the church. If we were found lacking in their eyes, we were not eligible for membership. And, if you are not a member of LFF, you are not aware of what goes on behind the scenes. You do not get to know how or where money is spent, and you are not able to speak your mind (your voice makes no difference there anyway. the leadership does whatever it wants.) At my new church we went to one post service meeting, held once a month, where those who wished to be members of the church came and the vision and beliefs of the church were explained. The beliefs were basic (one God, the Trinity, water baptism, etc...) and were those all Christians should believe. If we believed the same thing, we prayed together with everyone else and just like that we were members and could attend meetings to vote on important church decisions. Can you imagine the idea of an objective vote at LFF?

4. (via email) We found that too much service had adverse effects on our family. My wife and I spent so much of our time serving that our kids behavior was affected. Because we didn't spend enough quality time with them-playing, loving, conversing-they developed some unsatisfactory behaviors of kids who were not loved enough. The Vances had convinced us that our service was needed literally seven days a week. I could give you a rundown of what we did every day, but I am sure you understand and relate. In our new church, we have found a couple of ways our service really helps the local body. But the time committed is only a fraction of what it was at LFF. Our children have come around and our family is closer than ever. I am glad we got out of there when our kids were young. I see the results of the families really close to leadership whose kids were never shown the proper love and attention. I fear for the Vance's own children. I am so thankful that our eyes were opened before our family was sucked in and became like the average LFF family.

There must be many other helpful lessons learned by those who have attended LFF in the past. We invite readers to post examples, thoughts or questions in the comment box...

Reflection (via e-mail)

First of all- this is a good blog, thank you to whoever is maintaining it, I think it is important for people who have left LFF to have a place to talk about what happened to them, and to share their feelings with people who may understand- I have found that unless you were there, and experienced it, it can't be understood. I have spoken to other Pastors to try and make sense of some of the things, and almost immediately I can see them get nervous or get that look like "uh-oh" a dissenter, or a trouble maker- but I think here we all know that we weren't. We were just hurt and confused, and this type of expression brings some peace to those who use it.

I left LFF after spending 5 years of my young adult life with them. I made some mistakes (that I admitted), but they weren't life and death mistakes, just stupid things like being sloppy and forgetful, not keeping track of things correctly etc- things that since I left I have learned were fairly normal for where I was in my life. I am not making excuses for them, but I received a response that made me reassess my relationship with the church. Up to that point I was a Bible Study leader, a JCD, an intern, and a campus rep, I had developed a real relationship with Jesus, and felt like although I had problems, I was zealous to serve him. But I have to admit that when my CCL and HCL started questioning my sexuality, and my deliverance etc I was confused, scared and overwhelmingly sad. Yet, I stuck it out for some time, actually I held on believing I would be forgiven until one morning at crew. I was accused by an HCL (not my own) of making a sheep fall because I didn't get them to a baptism service on time, and I was told I was selfish and unrepentant. Now, this was very painful because I felt like I had given the last 5 years of my life to the exact opposite thing, I had spent those years documenting my life in 15 minute increments to show that I was spending time bringing people to the Lord- not making them stumble. All that being said, I have to say that I am sad for the people who have been hurt, and I know some of you spent many more years there than me, and I do understand the confusion and loneliness of leaving. But at the end of the day as I look back, I am still grateful to them for my salvation- I would not know Jesus if I had not gone to LFF.

That is hard for me to say; while I was there I walked through a lot of pain- I was "in love" with someone who was very close to leadership, we were doing marriage homework when some of this happened and I believe he was counseled to break up with me; he did it on the phone before a CCF. Obviously, I didn't feel up to going to CCF, but a little later I got a call from my HCL (who knew he had broken up with me) telling me I should be at CCF that night, and missing it was selfish. I only tell you these things because I want anyone reading to know that I did go through pain- but again I say I learned some things about Jesus that were real, and I did learn how to listen to Him. What is ironic is that they taught me to listen to God, and it was that very teaching that allowed me to hear God when he started telling me LFF wasn't where he wanted me.

I have been gone from LFF for over 5 years, and although the wounds left scars, the good thing about scars is that they remind you of what happened, but after a while they stop hurting. I am closer to the Lord now than I ever was; I am married to a fabulous man and we are serving the Lord together, and God has worked things out for me in a way I could not have imagined. So I hope this gives people who have just left, or who are stuck there (either physically or emotionally) some hope. God really does work all things out for good for those who love him- I am proof. We need to stay focused on loving God, and remember that he is our hope and our salvation not a church or a leader- they only have as much power to still hurt us as we let them have- When I finally turned all my pain over to Jesus he really did touch me, and he really did heal me, and yes I am still skeptical of some leadership but I feel like with him, I can heal from that too- he is my hope.

God Bless You All

1 Corinthians 2:9 - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him

More from the comment box...

It seems there are those that do not frequently check the comment boxes. Thus, here is a comment to a previous post that we feel is both heartfelt and indicative of that which remains at LFF. This saddens us in that, "omission" is arguably out of the question. We leave this comment open for discussion and hope, our readers can provide some insight into what still takes place at LFF.

To the person who is still at LFF:

You have no idea how often you have been and continue to be deceived at LFF. I know many who have caught the Vances in lies about various issues and it has occurred even in the last few months. I caught Kari in several lies and I was deeply grieved that someone who had no grace on others she had caught lying, would be so into the practice herself.

When asked about issues that are causing people to leave, the Vances frequently reply "I don't know what you are talking about". The truth be told, people have gone to them over and over again with abuse issues and they won't hear it.

You can't tell me it's changed when they continue to refuse to come clean about things they have done to people and continue to lie. They want everything to look good but won't face the rot that is at the core. By their own teaching if things were really different they would have "Repented and confessed".
Neither of things have happened.

Please remain open to things God puts in your heart. Too many of us were afraid we were critical, or something was wrong with us so we kept our mouths shut or shut down our intuition. We didn't tell the emperor (or emperess in this case) about her lack of clothing.

Don't be afraid to contact people who have left (there is over 250 in the last couple years) and ask questions. You will find many of us are going on loving God but are still deeply hurting from LFF and are in the healing process.

From the comment box...

I don't know how you all find healing. Really, it's great that you do. But it's not so easy for everyone.

I myself have chosen indifference. I choose to not face the emotions and just put them away. Really, I now have no desire to go to any church. Yes, I do value friendship with God, but I struggle with understanding how He could let these pastors at LFF do so much wrong in His name. That kills me. I thought I could hear from God--His still small voice that I used to be able to guide my life with. But my days at LFF ruined that. I cannot hear God anymore-its all confusion. Why? All the times the leaders at LFF told me that what I heard from God was not accurate. The times they said that "God told them otherwise, and for me to proceed without their blessing would be sin." I don't know what I hear. It's a jumbled mess of confusion. Sometimes I think I hear some direction, but then I hear the still small voice on my other shoulder of some LFF person berating me for my "spiritual immaturity" and I lose it. I can't make THAT voice go away.

When I try to live for Christ it is so frustrating it brings me to tears. I can't do it without the scars from LFF being torn wide open. They hurt and I end up so confused. I don't know how to deal with it so I just shove my feelings. I avoid things having to do with Faith because that's the only way I know to deal with it. At least having the thoughts out of my mind I don't feel the pain.

How can you forgive? I have no desire to do so. Sure the Bible says to...but the Bible is paper and leather...it hasn't ever been in my situation so I have a hard time believing that it even applies. Who do I blame? I blame the current head pastors of the church and the campus pastor the most. They screwed with my head so much, all in the name of their little games. They tried so hard to get me in their system. I was one who could bring several other people along with me, so they tried very hard to rein me in. I was with them for awhile, but through it my heart for Christ was broken so badly I don't even want to try to pick up the pieces. I blame them. I have no idea how to forgive them, and am filled with scorn towards anyone who has the audacity to suppose I should just up and forgive them.

I don't blame myself. I was doing what I honestly thought was right. But because of that-my honest, pure intentions that left me ripe for manipulation-because of that I can't seem to forgive. They stole a lot of my life in college. They stole my heart out of my chest. Broke up my relationship with my first love Jesus and my second love who they said was not appropriate for someone of my spiritual potential. They said to pursue that relationship I would be unequally yoked. I may have missed the ONE for me.

I don't know where to go from here. I don't want anything to do with a church. I don't trust pastors, and I never will again. I see parts of LFF in every church I have ever tried since, and that scares the hell out of me.

My life without church and without christian friends seems to be going just fine. I have no problems, few worries, and don't have to deal with the pain and the scars from that infernal church on the hill in pullman. But deep down I know that I am missing God's best for my life and I don't know how to find it. I feel like it was stolen from me in my days in pullman. I feel like it's too late, and what could have been God's best for my life is now another trophy on vance's mantle.

I haven't been able to make it through a praise and worship experience without tearing up and having to leave. That was my favorite thing, and it was the biggest pawn that was used at LFF to manipulate me. It was what I lived for, and now it seems to be the death of me. What a legacy you have created, Joe and Kari.

I am sorry that my comment here is so negative, but I hope you see from it that not everyone finds the healing that is so trivially purported. Not everyone has been able to find a church and move on. I suppose there may be others like me, and in that I find a meager amount of solace. I wish there were none of us. Most of all I wish I could go back and erase what has been done. To go back in time to the moments that mattered most, and stand up to the people at LFF and tell them they were wrong. To look them in the eye and defy the manipulation and control with strength I found in my own integrity. But I know that will never be. What is done is done, and I live with the regret.

I only have two wishes now. One to be able to forget--I have no desire to forgive. And two, that no one else would have to be like me. You see, this is continuing to happen, and every day there become more people hurt by this place, some in big ways and others in small. And it is SO EVIL AND WRONG!!! I write with tears streaming down my face, thinking of myself, but even more of some of my old friends who are still there. People who HAD so much potential who have wasted it on such a shallow existence that is LFF. People unknowingly wrecked by a regime who doesn't even care for them. And that kills me. Why doesn't someone stop it? Why doesn't GOD stop it? I don't understand

First of all thank you for your comment, we admire your honesty and appreciate where your are at. Healing is never easy, it takes time; sometimes a lifetime is not enough. We, in no way intend to be trite when referring to this process nor do we wish to infer it is easy. Healing is anything but easy, it is painful, it requires resolve, tears, and many times, more pain. In this case it is much like when a surgeon must re-break a bone to align it properly before true healing can take place. In writing of healing, we encourage people to find it, but know that it is much easier said than done. It cannot be rushed; and in many cases the slow working hands of time seem only to lessen the pain but never truly erase it.

Everything I experienced at LFF, is now a jumbled mess. There was plenty of good and plenty of evil. My desire for more of Him was stifled. My pursuit of true worship was met with harsh words that served only to highlight my perceived "inadequacies." My relationship with Christ was crippled by those I let in my life to help it. And in all of this mess came an overwhelming sense of defeat. I have been overcome by a host of crushing emotions. And the pain and confusion have been accentuated by the irony of the situation. For truly it is ironic that the acceptance, love, compassion, and joy I sought in the church, I found outside the church. While the abuse, pain, and manipulation I thought I was escaping in salvation, greeted me in the form of a pastor. Some of the most Christ-like people I have met are in fact unsaved. And those who claimed to be the most "Christian" dealt my Christianity blow after blow, pausing only to scold my wincing.

So, at the risk of sounding cliche, I know where you are at. Though I am not familiar with all the details surrounding your confusion; I think I understand. If you feel I am way off base, I apologize and ask that you disregard this entire response. Obviously, you are still hurting and so are many others, myself included. The pain you feel, is at times overwhelming, and forgiveness of those who placed it upon you is the furthest thing from your mind. You have suffered specific wounds at the hands of those you trusted. You have been exploited, looked down on, manipulated, and cast out by those you thought had your best interests in mind. What has been done to you is sinful and unfortunately your situation is not unique; there are a host of others. That simple fact lead to the creation of this place.

It is deeply painful to all of us to read your story as many of us have been through that which you describe. Some of us with the same offending parties and others with different. And we, like you, were made to feel wrong for being hurt, we were criticized, trivialized and in many cases ostracized. All because of some subjective opinion of our perceived spirituality or level of commitment. What happened to you, to me, to all of us, IS WRONG. And one of the biggest challenges is moving on when those who wronged you will hear none of it and want nothing to do with you. Many of us, administrators and readers, have been labeled rebels, dissenters and cynics by the "nurturing shepherds" we so blindly trusted.

Enter confusion, guilt, inability to trust, anger, bitterness, unwanted tears, and broken relationships. And all this at the hands of Christ's Church? Surely a good God would never let this happen. But His thoughts are not our own, He knows best and He is bigger. I know, the colloquialisms can ring hollow after hearing them also on the lips of those who have caused this pain. Nevertheless, though their words may at times bring emptiness to the truth, it does not negate the truth. Throughout history some of the most shocking horrors against humanity have been carried out in the name of God. Genocide, rape, murder, and war all purported under the banner of our Savior. Yet God is God and every man a liar. So again I ask that you hear this with a different ear; God is bigger, He knows what He is doing. Even if what He has allowed to take place makes no sense to us; He is God. Here I refer you to the book of Job.

I know this is difficult for you, for all of us. The water is murky and sorting this mess out seems next to impossible. We have nothing but broken pieces and are left to make black and white out of the grey they created. We all hurt with you and we respect your honesty. It is difficult to forgive and that hardship is only magnified when those you must forgive claim no wrongdoing. Even if you choose to forgive them, you may still be labeled the offending party. I know in their eyes they did nothing wrong to me and this demoralizing turmoil is to them, my own making. So, though I have chosen to forgive and move on; I am still plagued by confusion, a menacing inability to trust, and these wounds that seem as if they will never leave me.

I have forgiven and yet I find myself still forgiving. At times anger overwhelms me and I must deal with it all over again. Is it false repentance? That is what they would have me believe but that is simply not true. These wounds are specific and they are many. At times the pangs come in the least expected moments. I believe (and I am no way touting this as doctrine, take it or leave it) when Jesus said seventy times seven He was referring to the same offense. He knows the human heart and knows that sometimes you must forgive the same thing countless times. So yes, I have forgiven, and yes, I am forgiving, and yes, I will forgive. Many times forgiving is the last thing I want to do and in doing so I re-introduce the hurt.

Yet while forgiveness has come, trust has not. I can honestly say, I will never trust the senior pastors at LFF again. To do so would be foolish. This fact has been a crucial part of my healing. I can forgive but I don't have to allow them any power or influence in my life ever again. I would never ask a victim of abuse to prove the validity of their forgiveness by spending some quality alone time with their abuser. Why? Because the abuser destroyed their trust and while one might forgive the abuse, it would be idiotic to expect that in forgiveness lies restored trust. In forgiveness you will find the first steps toward recovery but forgiveness never requires that you open yourself up again to those who hurt you. Please do not hear us as those who would glibly tout healing. We know it is a long process and for some this process may never end, and that is okay.

We wish in no way to prod you to forgive or to be healed. That is something only you can do and only when you are ready. Within the walls of LFF were systems that were supposed to mold you into the uniform "Christian" they envisioned. Here that is not the case. There is no secret formula, no program, no crew and no meeting with oversight that will heal you or set you free. Instead, there is only prayer. We all pray that healing takes place and forgiveness comes to each and every one of us. Yet, we realize this will be a unique experience for everyone, never easy, never shallow, and never brief.

We come here at many different stages in the healing process. In this place we hope that many may find some sort of healing. We hope those who have made it further in the process can offer both encouragement and sympathy to those who have yet to take the first step. We offer this place as a community forum on the road to recovery. We expect nothing of anyone who comes here and seek to rush this process for no one. It is our true desire to aid any of you in any way that we can. Though none of us will ever be able to erase the wrong doing or the painful memories; we hope the words on this page bring some form of relief. We pray God blesses every one of you no matter where you are in your journey. We desire that each one of you know a true and simple relationship with God. This can be replaced by nothing, and even if your trust in any pastor is forever destroyed please don't let that destroy your trust in God.

Freedom

Where is the freedom we were supposed to have in Christ? Where is the joy, the love, the peace that passes all understanding? Instead, within the walls of LFF, so many people were trapped, slaves to acceptance, rules of holiness, and "the servant's heart." God is not the author of confusion and yet confusion has been one of the predominant fruits in the lives of those who attended Living Faith Fellowship. The e-mails we have received attest to this. They attest to the hurt, the inability to trust, and the chaos brought on by the tirades of shepherds. We came for clarity and left confused.

And then came this place, a place to name one's pain; a place to help free people from the guilt they should never have felt. A guilt that was heaped on them for feeling wronged. The fact is people were wronged. Yet the teachings of LFF have conditioned the hurting to feel as if they are sinning for acknowledging that pain. Since when did someone have the audacity to label pain as sin, and questions as a critical spirit?

This is not a pity party or a place to foster bitterness. Yet, those who have never felt this pain or who have caused these hurts would say otherwise. That is simply not true. This is a place in which you can be free. Free to acknowledge the pain, free to name that hurt, free to cry, and free to let go. Though scars remain, in time the pain diminishes.

We are glad people have been able to see that they were wronged. Many have carried these wounds rooted in confusion for far too long and it has crippled them. Yet, that which happened to you is not your fault; don't let anyone place their own sins on your head.

There is freedom and love and acceptance in Him. This comes freely and you can do nothing to earn it. It is unconditional, never contingent on your service or level of commitment. Know His love in its beauty and let no man take that from you. His healing is as real as your pain. There is no point in waiting for those who have wronged you to seek your forgiveness or even admit they failed. That may never happen and it matters not.

Thank you for the e-mails of encouragement, for the dialogue through comments and most of all for your support. We never thought this site would have such an impact. The site continues to see increasing traffic. In the last week alone, we have seen over 1,200 unique visitors. Truly, something good has and will continue to come of this. God bless you all and know His healing.

An encounter...via e-mail

I wrote this a few weeks ago after speaking with my former senior pastor after years of being away. You can post it if you want, perhaps someone will relate.

It was Saturday. The rain and the sun traded blows, each trying to establish dominance. But this battle was an afterthought, only an atmosphere with which to hold the ensuing battle. The real struggle was all mental and thus it took precedence in my troubled mind. Saturday's conflict was not as cut and dry as the classic skirmishes our society has afforded us. For, in this scene, the lines between good and evil, between right and wrong, between black and white were all blurred. Instead there was only a murky grey. Good was evil and evil was not definable.

Saturday was a flash back. But this was no mental snapshot, instead I was physically thrust into an all-too-real shadow of my haunting past. A past in which you lorded your authority over me; you were shepherd and I was sheep. A past that brings restless nights, empty days, and surprising moments of confusing agony. Time and its intrinsic healing ability have rounded off the edges and numbed the acuteness. Yet, there is no amount of time that will ever erase these scars. In a moment, I am undone. Time and all its power mean nothing. Clarity is lost and I am once again left to make black and white out of grey. Your presence has again muddied these waters.

Somehow, your delusions transcend everyone present, yet they baffle me. Will you ever see the world beyond your mind? The world in which you are wrong; the world in which the pain you inflict is visible not to me but to you? To me, this will never make sense. To you, there was never any sense to make. In grey you see black as white and wrong as right. Your pride holds your humility and your pleasure, pain. Your lies are infallible, to you, they are truth. Saturday is gone and my innocence is lost. Saturday is gone and your innocence is reassured. Somehow, someway, you win. You brought awareness to my pain. You forced me to assign words to your delusions. You confirmed my fears; your words still hurt. I told myself you could hurt me no more, but Saturday melted my defenses leaving me in speechless horror as they became water running through my hands.

An e-mailed response to the previous post

I apologize in advance as this became rather lengthy rather quickly. I think you will find it relevant in response to the previously e-mailed question. I read the last post and could not help but respond. This blog has been very helpful for me in naming and dealing with my pain. But no post has required a response of me until now. And so, to whoever you are with the questions…You are right, no church is perfect, churches are run by people and therefore will always have flaws. As to the vagueness, there are specific issues all over the blog. Perhaps they lack the gory details, but they are there, you just have to see them. If I had the ability I could walk you through the whole blog with a highlighter showing you the causes of people’s pain. It seems the administrators here have chosen not to relate one time instances or many detailed descriptions because by most measures it would be trivial.

If people were to recount the detailed interactions and certain instances that caused the departure of anyone; it would take hundreds if not thousands of pages. Yet that desire for details is something that is inherently wrong with LFF. It is driven by information, and that information only flows one way. There are numerous weekly and monthly meetings to discuss the information and sin in the lives of sheep. But, this is pointless, it is a waste of all of our time to sit here and argue about what kinds of details are passed along about sheep to “shepherds.”

So perhaps you cannot see the specifics here and that is fine, allow me to help your search. As you can tell from reading, the most common topics are these; spiritual abuse, control, abuse of authority for personal gain, arrogance of leadership, and failure of the pastors to accept any point of view besides the their own. It is easy to miss all of these things going on around you; after all they are being done in the name of God. At times I missed them too.

Frankly, asking for intimate details is a bit of an odd request given that there are obviously an overwhelming amount of people that are hurt and only now finding healing. Whether you realize it or not, you are in a fact asking victims of abuse to recount the explicit details of that abuse. Is the pain not good enough, not real enough, must you hear the intricacies too?

I realize that for some it is hard to believe without unequivocal proof. So I will oblige you with some of the details of my own experience. Those in current leadership will deny this; again chalking it up, like usual, to gross misinterpretations on my part due to sin in my life. I will be the first to tell you that is no news; I am a sinner. Anyone who says they have no sin in their life is nothing more than a delusional liar, thus a sinner. So writing this off because of one’s sins is completely irrelevant, a shoddy argument at best. I say that only because this is the first route taken by the pastors to discredit the truth. However, it would be a waste of all of our time for me to sit here and make up some story about the church.

I went to LFF for nearly twenty-five years. Born and raised, a true product of the church. I have been through it all there. I have been yelled at, screamed at, and even cussed at by the former and current pastors. All this in the name of God and “righteous anger.” Remember, God only chastens those He loves. Oh, and my countenance I was always getting an earful for that. If I wasn’t smiling, I was sinning and so the yelling came again. People who have been around there long enough constantly said there are double standards and this one is classic. How many times have I been chewed out for my frown by the frowning pastor’s wife? Countless.

I saw my best friend’s family publicly humiliated for the sins of their son. These sins were the subject of a special members meeting that we were all required to attend. The poor choices of a teenager became the topic of discussion for the evening. The family was publicly stripped of their leadership responsibilities. They ended up moving away from Pullman and we were all forbidden to talk to them. The church had forced their own out; those who had given so much were ostracized by the leadership. For what? This tore me up inside, my best friend was gone and I could not talk to him because he was a “sinner.” Good thing Jesus talked to sinners or we would all be lost.

I continued to attend with my family but hated the fact that my parents were always doing church stuff. I rarely saw my parents as they worked for the church and were either working, ministering, or in their free time assisting the pastors with projects around their house. The church said family comes before ministry but they required their members to put family after church. This was never said but as every preacher loves to tell us, “Actions speak louder than words.” This was not just my family; the same was true of all of my friends’ families. Families always took a back seat to church. I was troubled by this and countless other hypocrisies.

At 16 I told the senior pastor that I did not want to go to the Christian School any more because we didn't have a football team and I wanted to play football. He replied by crawling across the top of his desk in a screaming fit of rage. He kicked me out of my house, right in front of my parents without even consulting them. I looked at my parents and they said nothing, we all knew to question his judgment, asinine as it was, was never tolerated. I spent two nights at a friend’s house before coming home and begging to go back to the school. Not because I wanted to, because I had to.

I hated the school, hated the church and hated the system I was trapped in. I was told how to walk, how to talk, how to act, and what to think. The growing number of discrepancies I saw caused me to never take anything at face value. And so I inwardly questioned. Questioned policies, questioned double standards, questioned the godliness of the tirades of the pastor, and questioned this false reality the church had painted for me. I knew questioning was never acceptable but I could not stand it. I could not take these thoughts tearing apart my insides anymore. So I began to ask but never received answers. Instead of being told why the way things were the way they were, I was labeled as a rebel.

I was then constantly in trouble for the tiniest things. Things that were not even issues garnered the wrath of the pastors. I once wore my hat backwards while I was shooting baskets. Like it or not, it is easier to make a shot if you are not hitting the bill of your hat every time you shoot the ball. Well, someone saw me with my hat turned backwards and reported me to the senior pastor. He then brought me in front of everyone at members meeting and while the current senior pastors watched silently, he yelled at me, hit me in the face, and banned me from wearing a hat ever again on LFF property. Apparently, he decided backwards hats were rebellious and therefore, to him, I was rebelling.

Suddenly, everything about me was being judged, the clothes I wore, the people I talked to, even the Christian music I listened to. Yes, Christian music. The senior pastor even preached a message one Sunday saying in front of the entire congregation that he was angered by the fact that some of the people who grew up here had gone to a Christian rock concert in Spokane. I was in college but I had to beg for his forgiveness for being rebellious and going to a Third Day concert. Unfortunately I was a little early, no one in the church yet approved of the music they now sing in worship services.

It became too much, I hated that place and I could not take it anymore. I began doing what I wanted and not telling anyone about it. But they found out; I was ex-communicated from the church. The current senior pastor and an assistant came to my apartment and told me I was no longer allowed to speak to my family, my friends, or anyone associated with LFF because of “un-repentance” in my life. Was I sinning? Emphatically yes. But sin was not tolerated so they wanted nothing to do with me. My friends were told, “Don’t talk to him; he made his own bed now let him lie in it.” And so it was, for three years I had almost no contact with my family and all those I grew up with; it was not allowed.

And as quickly as it began, it ended. I wanted my family back and my life without God was a wreck. I returned to my home late one evening and once again found God. It was perfect, innocence at last. I loved everything about Him, and was enamored by anything that had to do with my new found Savior. I asked forgiveness of many people for my rebellion and for believing lies about them. My joy was complete

As the school year approached, I was asked if I wanted to be a JCD. I said, “No.” But “no” was the wrong answer. I was asked to meet with the soon to be campus pastor who strongly encouraged me to become a JCD. I was still not convinced so the current senior pastor met with me and again strongly encouraged me to join. And I did. Within a month I hated it. I was in trouble for not filling out reports or not spending enough time doing this or that. The system had taken hold again; backbreaking rules replaced true love and an innocent desire for God. Then all at once the joy I had vanished.

As I became more involved I was shocked. The things that had troubled me as a youth did in fact happen. I asked forgiveness for what I thought were juvenile misconceptions on my part. I sought forgiveness for being critical of the double standards, forgiveness for thinking of the pastors as arrogant, and forgiveness for assuming the anger (verbal abuse) that had driven me away was ungodly. Yet, all these things were still happening; I was led to believe I needed to ask forgiveness for the sins against me. I became confused and the closer I looked the more I saw. I brought these issues -- which I could give you even more specifics but it would overwhelm you -- to people in leadership and to my surprise, some of them agreed. But the senior pastors felt otherwise.

Then it snapped, I saw many of my friends start to leave the church for the exact things that had troubled me in the past. I tried to point out why they were leaving to the new pastors but it was useless. I had no voice and that which deeply troubled me was to them, untrue. So I opted for anonymity. I drafted the letter that appears on the very bottom of this site and sent it to the pastors. (I was a little surprised when I found it here on this blog, but I am glad someone is making use of it.) It became a witch hunt. And after several weeks I came forward and claimed my previously unsigned correspondence. This led to several very long meetings that went absolutely nowhere. I did receive an apology from the senior pastors though…”We are sorry you feel this way, but how you feel is not accurate.” That was a first, up to that point in my life I had never been told of my errant ways in an apology. I was made to feel guilty and I myself apologized for writing the letter. Which in retrospect was a mistake; I said nothing untrue and was only trying to stop the efflux of members.

After a few more pointless meetings, I left. Since then, I have seen hundreds of people leave for the exact same things I tried to point out; control, manipulation, double standards, and abuse of authority. But what grieves me most are the ones that really tried the ones who really “pressed in.” My friends on the worship team and in the CCF band were forced out for not being submissive to someone’s personal idea of holiness. For not choosing the “songs God wanted to hear for worship.” For refusing to admit, and I quote, “LFF is the best church in world.” For questioning when what they heard from God was not what their pastor was telling them. For singing songs in worship that God’s song selector had not yet approved or had a chance to sing on a Sunday. Apparently the songs God wants to hear on a Friday must be sung on a Sunday first. He seems to like a larger audience to introduce potential worship service classics. For many reasons people have been pushed out and innocence destroyed. These reasons coupled with the inability of the senior pastors, past and present, to accept any differing point of view or minor criticism from anyone has driven a host of people from LFF.

And so here a growing number of the departed come, expressing their pains, searching for God in the mess “His anointed” made for them. And the thing that hurts them beyond what you can even imagine is the fact that the church they loved and poured so much into wants nothing to do with them. Its leaders label the pain, as generalized complaining and ungodly criticism rooted in sin. The confused lives of the departed are held up as “I told you so’s,” aiming to force others into submission. The leadership thinks they know best and if you feel otherwise be prepared to pay. They say they have changed but it is only appearance. There is still the underlying spirit of manipulation and control and it is still crushing people’s souls.

I apologize for the long e-mail and can only imagine the varying interpretations it will get if you post it. I am not angry at anyone or anything that happened to me. I do not blame any of my actions, both in youth and adulthood, on anyone. I made my own choices and so did those who hurt and manipulated me. I have forgiven them and moved on. It is not anger I feel toward them, instead I pity them in their crippling inability to see the pain they have inflicted and continue to inflict on many. I hope by giving you some of the details you requested you will see the topics on this site are in fact real. There are many more details but I have already gone on far too long. I know there are those who will interpret this as bitterness and that is fine. Sometimes it is hard to infer the proper meaning through words on a page. I cannot control the way this is received and can only hope somehow, someway it will help someone.